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Is the absence of Rosetta in LIon a business or technical decision?
Posted by: JEBB
Date: August 08, 2011 10:40AM
I have a load of PPC applications that I've accumulated over the years, many are irreplaceable at any price. If there is no Rosetta it will have to be a long time before I buy a new Mac.
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Re: Is the absence of Rosetta in LIon a business or technical decision?
Posted by: wowzer
Date: August 08, 2011 10:44AM
Jebb,

Build some hackingtoshes to get the most bang out of your computers...



All I ever really needed to know, I learned from watching Star Trek.
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Re: Is the absence of Rosetta in LIon a business or technical decision?
Posted by: Trouble
Date: August 08, 2011 10:45AM


Word on the street is Apple may license Rosetta to third parties to bundle with their apps.
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Re: Is the absence of Rosetta in LIon a business or technical decision?
Posted by: Jimmypoo
Date: August 08, 2011 10:46AM
It was a Techno-Business decision...
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Re: Is the absence of Rosetta in LIon a business or technical decision?
Posted by: MacArtist
Date: August 08, 2011 10:46AM
I'm pretty sure it was a Steve Jobs decision.

His way of telling us PPC is completely, unequivocally, dead.

Is there a way of setting up a Virtual Machine running 10.6.x to be able to use PPC apps in Lion?



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Re: Is the absence of Rosetta in LIon a business or technical decision?
Posted by: Linda2
Date: August 08, 2011 10:48AM
I have more than a few PPC applications that I, like you, cannot replace and do not want to do without. I certainly won't be upgrading to Lion.
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Re: Is the absence of Rosetta in LIon a business or technical decision?
Posted by: silvarios
Date: August 08, 2011 10:53AM
Quote
Trouble
Word on the street is Apple may license Rosetta to third parties to bundle with their apps.

License something they don't own? As far as I know, Apple pays a licensing fee for Rosetta per Mac.
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Re: Is the absence of Rosetta in LIon a business or technical decision?
Posted by: JEBB
Date: August 08, 2011 10:57AM
Quote
MacArtist

Is there a way of setting up a Virtual Machine running 10.6.x to be able to use PPC apps in Lion?

Is there a way of running Mac OSX in a virtual machine? I don't think so.

Running 10.6 in a separate partition wouldn't work either because a Mac will only boot with the system that came with the machine or later.
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Re: Is the absence of Rosetta in LIon a business or technical decision?
Posted by: Robert M
Date: August 08, 2011 10:58AM
Jebb,

I am in a similar situation. For now, I plan to stay with OS 10.6.8. However, at some point, I'll want to upgrade to Lion or be forced to move to Lion. My plan is to clone my existing configuration onto an external. I'll upgrade to Lion and boot off the external for those times I need PPC apps. Hopefully, by the time I need a new machine, I'll have switched entirely to Intel apps. If not, I'll keep an older Mac around for the sole purpose of running the few PPC apps I can't replace with intel versions and/or alternatives.

Some of my current apps don't like OS 10.6.x at all. So, I cloned an OS 10.5.x version of my system to an external and use it for those few times I need to run them. Hopefully, I'll replace those apps with 10.6.x compatible versions and I can cut OS 10.5.x out entirely. A switch to OS 10.7. will follow a similar path. Use Lion for most things. Switch to an OS 10.6.x boot drive for some things and return to the primary drive again.

Not the best solution but it's workable for me.

Robert
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Re: Is the absence of Rosetta in LIon a business or technical decision?
Posted by: space-time
Date: August 08, 2011 11:01AM
Quote
silvarios
... As far as I know, Apple pays a licensing fee for Rosetta per Mac.

so it seems more like a business decision.

I wonder if Apple or the company who owns Rosetta could make it available as a separate module via App Store
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Re: Is the absence of Rosetta in LIon a business or technical decision?
Posted by: GGD
Date: August 08, 2011 11:11AM
Quote
silvarios
License something they don't own?

Well, they were licensing it to end users as part of 10.5 and 10.6.

And none of us know the exact terms of their contract for the Rosetta technology, it's all speculation.
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Re: Is the absence of Rosetta in LIon a business or technical decision?
Posted by: DRR
Date: August 08, 2011 11:11AM
What are these PPC apps that are priceless and irreplaceable?

Not doubting, just curious.
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Re: Is the absence of Rosetta in LIon a business or technical decision?
Posted by: Fred_Also
Date: August 08, 2011 11:17AM
Quote
space-time

so it seems more like a business decision.

I wonder if Apple or the company who owns Rosetta could make it available as a separate module via App Store

I think it would take more than that. Probably take some time to trouble shoot it & make it work with Lion.

______

In my switch to Lion, I started using Pages & Numbers to replace M/S Office. For Power Point I am using NeoOffice although I still need to switch that over to Keynote. Neo will load & edit PP files & you can still use them on a computer running PP.

Fred
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Re: Is the absence of Rosetta in LIon a business or technical decision?
Posted by: Winston
Date: August 08, 2011 11:19AM
Quote
Linda2
I have more than a few PPC applications that I, like you, cannot replace and do not want to do without. I certainly won't be upgrading to Lion.

I still feel that way about a number of OS 9 applications. Gosh, I still miss WordPerfect (and still hate MS Word). And how am I going to play Myst again? (unless I set up one of my old Macs with OS 9, which I plan to do eventually). (No, Sheep Shaver is not a practical option, and I found that Classic doesn't work very well with a lot of old kids games.)

I've got far more invested in OS 9 applications than I've spent on OS 10 applications, and most of it can't be replaced by OS X versions. Lots of education and entertainment software.

Don't get me wrong: OS X is a vast improvement over OS 9. But I, at least, lost a lot in the transition.*


Good luck.

- Winston

* This from the guy who drives an 18 year old car and gets annoyed when parts aren't available for a 17 year old appliance. Hey, I bought it because it did what I needed, not for the manufacturer to arbitrarily make it obsolete.



------------------------
Be seeing you.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/08/2011 11:21AM by Winston.
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Re: Is the absence of Rosetta in LIon a business or technical decision?
Posted by: Spock
Date: August 08, 2011 11:24AM
Heads up guys, word on the street is that it is possible to install Rosetta on Lion from the Optional Installs package in Snow Leopard. I read that a poster on MacInTouch made the claim.






Comedy Central: Best news channel that isn't a news channel.

Fox News: Best comedy channel that isn't a comedy channel.
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Re: Is the absence of Rosetta in LIon a business or technical decision?
Posted by: deckeda
Date: August 08, 2011 11:46AM
Quote
Spock
Heads up guys, word on the street is that it is possible to install Rosetta on Lion from the Optional Installs package in Snow Leopard. I read that a poster on MacInTouch made the claim.

Interesting. Of course now, 2 weeks into Lion I can't think of any PPC apps I actually miss. Having a good time learning some newer apps however.
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Re: Is the absence of Rosetta in LIon a business or technical decision?
Posted by: hal
Date: August 08, 2011 11:59AM
Quote
Linda2
I have more than a few PPC applications that I, like you, cannot replace and do not want to do without. I certainly won't be upgrading to Lion.

For how long I wonder? Five years? Twenty years? You know that you can't hold out forever. At some point you'll all break down and move on.
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Re: Is the absence of Rosetta in LIon a business or technical decision?
Posted by: Winston
Date: August 08, 2011 12:09PM
Quote
hal
Quote
Linda2
I have more than a few PPC applications that I, like you, cannot replace and do not want to do without. I certainly won't be upgrading to Lion.

For how long I wonder? Five years? Twenty years? You know that you can't hold out forever. At some point you'll all break down and move on.

More accurately for me, my old Mac will break down. I've killed a 600 MHz G3 iBook (bought new) and a 667 MHz TiBook (demo model used by someone else in the family first bought about the same time as the iBook). Now on a hand-me-down 1.5 GHz 12" PowerBook. It appears to be in great shape, and is running like a champ with a new SSD.


- W



------------------------
Be seeing you.
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I've wondered about this myself.
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: August 08, 2011 12:20PM
While on the one hand, I understand the evil genius that is Stevie wants to screw his user base at every turn by devoting every waking moment to crippling the OS and hardware so as to keep our wallets emptying into the Apple coffers.

On the other hand I understand that, unlike Microsoft, he understands the value of not support tech more than a few generations old, from the standpoint of reliability.

I have a few PPC apps I want to keep, not that many that I *need* to keep, but I paid for them and use them from time to time. For me, it's not a problem to have an older machine for Snow and earlier.


Heads up guys, word on the street is that it is possible to install Rosetta on Lion from the Optional Installs package in Snow Leopard. I read that a poster on MacInTouch made the claim.

And I've wondered about this, too.

I don't know OS tech, but it seemed strange that nobody (at least that I saw) asked about such a transplant, or that if Rosetta would run in Lion. And it also seemed strange that if it were possible, word would have hit the street long before now.






When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men
except by believing all possible evil
of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

-An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

Mister, that's a ten-gallon hat on a twenty-gallon head.

I *love* Sigs. It's Glocks I hate.




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/08/2011 12:24PM by RAMd®d.
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Re: Is the absence of Rosetta in LIon a business or technical decision?
Posted by: silvarios
Date: August 08, 2011 12:38PM
Quote
GGD
Well, they were licensing it to end users as part of 10.5 and 10.6.

And none of us know the exact terms of their contract for the Rosetta technology, it's all speculation.

"QuickTransit is not a product that you can buy as an end user. The way Transitive makes money is by selling a licensing agreement to the QuickTransit platform to a vendor, which pays a multi-million dollar fee for that license. The vendor also pays an annual maintenance fee that runs into the hundreds of thousands of dollars a year, and then a per-machine license fee for every box they ship with QuickTransit on it. Apple is eating the cost of the QuickTransit-based Rosetta environment with each sale of a Mac or Xserve."

Source.
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Re: I've wondered about this myself.
Posted by: Winston
Date: August 08, 2011 12:40PM
I completely agree with the logic of not supporting lots of old programs - this is part of the reason why Windows has had such problems. But I don't have to like it.

My son told me a few weeks ago that there was some movement to provide limited Rosetta support in Lion because of one program: Quicken. Too many Mac users have it, and there is no Intel only version. Haven't heard that anywhere else, but he is more "plugged in" than anyone I else I know (perhaps excepting some of our experts here).

Here's what Quicken says at the moment:
[quicken.intuit.com]

And here's an article that discusses it:
[reviews.cnet.com]
Quote

... Quicken was developed with PowerPC-specific instructions for core components of the software, which has made it a daunting and practically impossible task for Intuit to get running on the Intel architecture. As a result, when Apple drops PowerPC support altogether, Quicken will no longer run. ...

According to The Mac Observer, Apple and Intuit have been aware of this problem for the vast Quicken user base, and in order to prevent Quicken from being cut off in OS X Lion are working together to try to embed the essential aspects of Rosetta in the Quicken software to keep it going.

This project is likely going to take a while to get implemented, and ultimately it may not be possible to get done either properly or in enough time for it to be a feasible option for either Intuit or Apple, but at least the companies are giving it a shot. In short, initially Quicken 2007 will not work in Lion, but there is a possibility that sooner or later it will run.



- W



------------------------
Be seeing you.
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Re: Is the absence of Rosetta in LIon a business or technical decision?
Posted by: silvarios
Date: August 08, 2011 12:45PM
GGD,
Also note that Transitive is now owned by IBM. As far as I know, QuickTransit is not available for new customers, but legacy customers are still supported.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/08/2011 12:47PM by silvarios.
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Re: I've wondered about this myself.
Posted by: Zoidberg
Date: August 08, 2011 01:10PM
Quote
Winston
My son told me a few weeks ago that there was some movement to provide limited Rosetta support in Lion because of one program: Quicken. Too many Mac users have it, and there is no Intel only version. Haven't heard that anywhere else, but he is more "plugged in" than anyone I else I know (perhaps excepting some of our experts here).

I don't doubt it. But I wonder is it lazy programming (or more approp middle-mgmt saying "no one uses Macs" ) or a general lack of funding (doubtful) to re-write Quicken? It's not like Lion snuck up on anyone. (see my previous post wondering why major software companies delay updates saying "the OS has only just been released" where one-man and small software shops have versions ready before the OS is released.

Quicken has a lot of competition for general use needs. I think in a lot of cases it's like Internet Explorer on Windows; people use it because it's there. I have to wonder, too, how many people who say they have to have Quicken is only because of the .qif file they get from a bank download (which likely says "can only be opened by Quicken" ).

[EDIT - changed to fix THAT STUPID GODDERN AUTO-SMILEY BS GOD I WISH I COULD TURN THAT OFF I HATE IT MORE THAN AUTOCORRECT]







Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/08/2011 01:11PM by Zoidberg.
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Re: I've wondered about this myself.
Posted by: Winston
Date: August 08, 2011 01:17PM
Quote
Zoidberg
[EDIT - changed to fix THAT STUPID GODDERN AUTO-SMILEY BS GOD I WISH I COULD TURN THAT OFF I HATE IT MORE THAN AUTOCORRECT]
agree smiley

- W



------------------------
Be seeing you.
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Re: Is the absence of Rosetta in LIon a business or technical decision?
Posted by: anonymouse1
Date: August 08, 2011 01:43PM
Lots of stuff on the intertubes about hacking around with a VM to run SL on Lion.
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Re: Is the absence of Rosetta in LIon a business or technical decision?
Posted by: GGD
Date: August 08, 2011 01:56PM
Quote
silvarios
Quote
GGD
Well, they were licensing it to end users as part of 10.5 and 10.6.

And none of us know the exact terms of their contract for the Rosetta technology, it's all speculation.

"QuickTransit is not a product that you can buy as an end user. The way Transitive makes money is by selling a licensing agreement to the QuickTransit platform to a vendor, which pays a multi-million dollar fee for that license. The vendor also pays an annual maintenance fee that runs into the hundreds of thousands of dollars a year, and then a per-machine license fee for every box they ship with QuickTransit on it. Apple is eating the cost of the QuickTransit-based Rosetta environment with each sale of a Mac or Xserve."

Source.

That author doesn't know the exact terms of Apple's agreement with Transitive, so that is again more speculation. It's quite possible that Apple negotiated different terms than other/smaller QuickTransit customers.

And what that article is saying is that QuickTransit is not marketed directly to end users, but rather to OS vendors to provide to their end users. And the talk of Apple providing a Rosetta installer is very consistent with that, just as it was when they sold 10.5 and 10.6 to end users which included Rosetta.

Quote
silvarios
GGD,
Also note that Transitive is now owned by IBM. My understanding is the tech is not available for new customers, but legacy customers are still supported.

Yes I'm aware of that, and Apple is presumably a legacy customer.

I'm still trying to understand your point about why Apple would be unable to provide Rosetta for Lion. Every copy of QuickTransit that an end user got was licensed to the end user by the OS vendor, and they "License something they don't own" (but have a contract that allows them do that).
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Re: Is the absence of Rosetta in LIon a business or technical decision?
Posted by: bazookaman
Date: August 08, 2011 02:13PM
Quote
MacArtist
I'm pretty sure it was a Steve Jobs decision.






__________________________________
Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity
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Re: Is the absence of Rosetta in LIon a business or technical decision?
Posted by: rz
Date: August 08, 2011 03:33PM
Quote
DRR
What are these PPC apps that are priceless and irreplaceable?

Not doubting, just curious.

For me, it is drivers for my scanner. It's the HP that does the auto-feed, and I don't think any other software enables that functionality.
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Re: Is the absence of Rosetta in LIon a business or technical decision?
Posted by: Chakravartin
Date: August 08, 2011 03:56PM
Quote
Spock
Heads up guys, word on the street is that it is possible to install Rosetta on Lion from the Optional Installs package in Snow Leopard. I read that a poster on MacInTouch made the claim.

It is possible to install it using Pacifist, but it won't run. You'll just be wasting space on your HD.
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Re: Is the absence of Rosetta in LIon a business or technical decision?
Posted by: tenders
Date: August 08, 2011 04:20PM
I can't imagine what programming wizardry the geniuses at Quicken cooked up that can only be executed with a PPC's capabilities.
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Re: Is the absence of Rosetta in LIon a business or technical decision?
Posted by: silvarios
Date: August 08, 2011 08:15PM
Quote
GGD
And what that article is saying is that QuickTransit is not marketed directly to end users, but rather to OS vendors to provide to their end users. And the talk of Apple providing a Rosetta installer is very consistent with that, just as it was when they sold 10.5 and 10.6 to end users which included Rosetta.

My response was directed to the comment regarding Apple allowing third party developers to implement QuickTransit. I doubt that is possible under the current licensing agreement.

Quote
GGD
Yes I'm aware of that, and Apple is presumably a legacy customer.

I'm still trying to understand your point about why Apple would be unable to provide Rosetta for Lion. Every copy of QuickTransit that an end user got was licensed to the end user by the OS vendor, and they "License something they don't own" (but have a contract that allows them do that).

Again, my response in this discussion was about redistribution to third party commercial developers. I think you completely missed the point of my response. I never said Apple couldn't keep paying millions of dollars towards providing users with access to PowerPC applications, but since you asked; no I don't think Apple has any interest in keeping Rosetta alive. Nor do I think Apple has the rights to redistribute QuickTransit to third party developers. Sorry.
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Re: I've wondered about this myself.
Posted by: Winston
Date: August 08, 2011 08:46PM
Quote
Winston
My son told me a few weeks ago that there was some movement to provide limited Rosetta support in Lion because of one program: Quicken. Too many Mac users have it, and there is no Intel only version. Haven't heard that anywhere else, but he is more "plugged in" than anyone I else I know (perhaps excepting some of our experts here).

My son now tells me this is a dead effort. Haven't confirmed it elsewhere.

- W



------------------------
Be seeing you.
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Re: Is the absence of Rosetta in LIon a business or technical decision?
Posted by: space-time
Date: August 08, 2011 09:36PM
Quote
rz
Quote
DRR
What are these PPC apps that are priceless and irreplaceable?

Not doubting, just curious.

For me, it is drivers for my scanner. It's the HP that does the auto-feed, and I don't think any other software enables that functionality.

a long shot in the dark, but have you tried Image Capture? I have several recent Brother and Canon AOI and when I plugged it in OS X found and downloaded the correct drivers, and ever since I was able to scan from the Printer Control panel and also from the Image Capture. If your scanner is not that old it might be supported. Good luck.
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Re: Is the absence of Rosetta in LIon a business or technical decision?
Posted by: GGD
Date: August 08, 2011 09:46PM
Quote
silvarios
My response was directed to the comment regarding Apple allowing third party developers to implement QuickTransit. I doubt that is possible under the current licensing agreement.

Again, my response in this discussion was about redistribution to third party commercial developers. I think you completely missed the point of my response. I never said Apple couldn't keep paying millions of dollars towards providing users with access to PowerPC applications, but since you asked; no I don't think Apple has any interest in keeping Rosetta alive. Nor do I think Apple has the rights to redistribute QuickTransit to third party developers. Sorry.

I took that Trouble's original comment to mean that Apple would supply the third parties with an installer package that they could distribute with their app (although I think it would make more sense for Apple to just put it on their software download page), that would be similar to the optional Rosetta installer in SnowLoepard. And again we have no idea what the terms of Apple's agreement are, and if this would have any financial impact (Large one time lump sum payments for unlimited future use are not unheard of).

If there is really any truth to the "word on the street" that Trouble reported, then it would seem that Apple has considered the contractual and financial aspects, in addition to exploring the technical aspects. But again, everything is pure speculation.

Bottom line is that none of us know, we're all speculating. If Apple feels that they're getting enough bad press and resistance to Lion upgrades or new hardware purchases (or a certain member of the board of directors pushes for it), and wants to solve the problem, some solution will happen. If they want to make sure it stays dead and buried, nothing new will happen.
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Re: Is the absence of Rosetta in LIon a business or technical decision?
Posted by: Jimmypoo
Date: August 08, 2011 10:07PM
All of you people think this is bad, but have ANY of you given thought to the DEATH of the USB SCALE?!?
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