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Longer door hinge screws don't have enough reach on the house side, now what?
Posted by: deckeda
Date: March 12, 2012 08:01AM
Short of replacing the door frame (or just part?) do I have other options?

This is the front door, each hinge uses 4 screws. I just replaced the original hinges, oiling them first-wow, what a difference! The original screws had never been replaced, so they were only 3/4" long. Most original screws were loose, and therefore replaced with 1" screws and a few needed 1.5" screws. My philosophy was to not use longer screws than necessary, to save some wood for "next time" ... but maybe that's wrong, and longer screws would simply stay better longer.

But the top hinge has TWO screws that don't have enough wood behind them. I tried 1", 1.5", 2" and 2.5" screws but none of them find meat. They make a 3" screw but that seems ridiculous. Same size, #9. I guess I can try #10 if they'll fit.
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Re: Longer door hinge screws don't have enough reach on the house side, now what?
Posted by: Grateful11
Date: March 12, 2012 08:05AM
The last entrance door I hung, many moons ago, I used 3 or 3 1/2" screws so that they would catch the framing in the
stud wall. If you use a high quality deep thread screw and run them into a stud there shouldn't be a next time.



Grateful11
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Re: Longer door hinge screws don't have enough reach on the house side, now what?
Posted by: Ammo
Date: March 12, 2012 08:31AM
As Grateful suggests, use screws long enough to go into the 2 x4 behind the frame. This also makes it tougher for someone to kick your door in. Remember to do the same thing to the latch plate on the opposite side of the door, too.



Jackie Wilson said
It was "Reet-Petite"
Kinda love you got
Knock me off my feet
Let it all hang out
Oh, let it all hang out.
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Re: Longer door hinge screws don't have enough reach on the house side, now what?
Posted by: billb
Date: March 12, 2012 08:33AM
There could be quite a gap between the door frame and the rough in frame. Especially if they originally framed for a bigger door, or someone replaced the original with something smaller and there are rather large shims in the opening. You won't know this without taking the trim board off and looking. I'd try longer screws. Course, I've got a coffee can or two of leftover screws to try.
You could also find a wire or coat hanger or something to fish through the existing hinge hole and explore. It should hit something, but likely insulation will make that difficult.



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Re: Longer door hinge screws don't have enough reach on the house side, now what?
Posted by: deckeda
Date: March 12, 2012 08:51AM
Thanks guys.

The door and opening are original. And it's located at a corner: inside the house I measured 4.5" from where the hinge meets the frame and drywall. Looks like I need at least a 5" screw for 1/2" of it to pierce new wood.
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Re: Longer door hinge screws don't have enough reach on the house side, now what?
Posted by: M A V I C
Date: March 12, 2012 09:07AM
Sounds like you might be screwed.



(sorry)




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Re: Longer door hinge screws don't have enough reach on the house side, now what?
Posted by: lafinfil
Date: March 12, 2012 09:16AM
Quote
deckeda
Thanks guys.

The door and opening are original. And it's located at a corner: inside the house I measured 4.5" from where the hinge meets the frame and drywall. Looks like I need at least a 5" screw for 1/2" of it to pierce new wood.

It doesn't matter how far it is to the adjoining wall, there is no way that there is a 4" rough in. Most rough ins are going to allow 1/2" to 3/4" on each side of jamb to allow shimming. When a door or window is rough framed there is a king stud that runs full wall height, and a jack stud which is closest to the jamb. The jack stud carries the header over the door.

<edit> a quick search found this example








Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/12/2012 09:19AM by lafinfil.
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Re: Longer door hinge screws don't have enough reach on the house side, now what?
Posted by: deckeda
Date: March 12, 2012 09:27AM
Ah, so I only need something around 3.5" to better reach the king stud.
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Re: Longer door hinge screws don't have enough reach on the house side, now what?
Posted by: billb
Date: March 12, 2012 09:31AM
32 inch door in a 36 inch rough out could give you almost 5 inches



Logen Aryn Ryley - Happy Birthday
July 25
The Truth Will Always Be
Christine McVie Songbird demo cut no longer available
candy
"I was walking along a path with two friends - the sun was setting - suddenly the sky turned blood red - I paused, feeling exhausted, and leaned on the fence - there was blood and tongues of fire above the blue-black fjord and the city - my friends walked on, and I stood there trembling with anxiety - and I sensed an infinite scream passing through nature."






one Great Gig in THe Sky meets another
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Re: Longer door hinge screws don't have enough reach on the house side, now what?
Posted by: deckeda
Date: March 12, 2012 09:50AM
My front door is 36", if that matters.

Here you can see how close it is to a bathroom door inside.


And the distance to the drywall. It's 4.5", not the 4.25" it appears in the photo from that angle.


Gonna look for an assortment of lengths online somewhere; HD and Lowe's stop at 3".
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Re: Longer door hinge screws don't have enough reach on the house side, now what?
Posted by: lafinfil
Date: March 12, 2012 10:02AM
You really just need to get into the jack stud. On a new pre-hung door they supply a 4" screw. Remove one of the old screws and take it to hardware store and match for size and type (i.e. # 10 flat head Phillips wood screw) and then buy a pack of 4" versions. You will want to drill the hole a little deeper with the proper drill bit (undersized) otherwise you will probably strip the head before you get it in.



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Re: Longer door hinge screws don't have enough reach on the house side, now what?
Posted by: Carm
Date: March 12, 2012 10:26AM
Agreed. Only need to go to the Jackstud. If you cant find screws longer than 3" you are looking in the wrong spot. 3" is all you need for a door.
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Re: Longer door hinge screws don't have enough reach on the house side, now what?
Posted by: dohc76
Date: March 12, 2012 10:36AM
You could try something like these:

Adjustable Shim Screws
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Re: Longer door hinge screws don't have enough reach on the house side, now what?
Posted by: JoeH
Date: March 12, 2012 10:41AM
Only reason you should need screws longer than 3-3.5" is if the door was not framed correctly. Use billb's suggestion of using a piece of stiff wire to probe through the existing screw holes in the jamb and see how far it is until something solid. Builder could have cut corners and not run a jack stud the full length or just used scraps and hid it with the trim. You might have to take off the trim and add blocking or shims in the area of the hinge if the gap is too large, otherwise tightening long screws through an empty gap could distort the door frame.
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Re: Longer door hinge screws don't have enough reach on the house side, now what?
Posted by: deckeda
Date: March 12, 2012 12:54PM
According to the coat hanger, the distance is 2.5" for both screw holes.

I will see about getting a long enough small-diameter drill bit. Don't want to come this far and break off my new 3" screws I'm about to buy.
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Re: Longer door hinge screws don't have enough reach on the house side, now what?
Posted by: JoeH
Date: March 12, 2012 01:09PM
If that is the distance, then get at least 3.5" screws. A half inch of penetration just is not enough, it will eventually loosen up and cause the hole to strip out again. As for the distance, it is beginning to sound like the builder either left out the jack stud completely or rough framed for a different sized door.
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Re: Longer door hinge screws don't have enough reach on the house side, now what?
Posted by: Big Daddy Cool
Date: March 12, 2012 01:35PM
In addition to the above advice, If the original holes are enlarged from the years of being loose, after drilling your longer pilot holes, you can hammer in any combo of wood skewers, toothpicks, etc, to give some more lateral support to the new screws. If holes are totally shot, you can whack in some golf tees before and drill through those. depends on how bad the jam is and how many different people/doors were there previously.
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Re: Longer door hinge screws don't have enough reach on the house side, now what?
Posted by: Mike Johnson
Date: March 12, 2012 02:04PM
Best practice would be to reframe the door but that's not a small job. So, eh.

Longer screws are preferred because it makes it that much harder for somebody to kick your door in. #10 screws will have a larger head and likely won't sit flush in the countersink. If they sit 1/16" proud, you may have trouble closing the door. Besides, the difference in diameter is not that great, certainly not enough to make a solid fastening in stripped hole.

Don't fret about saving wood for next time.

Get a dowel that fits tightly in the screw holes. Maybe score a couple grooves in it if you're feeling industrious (they're for glue squeeze out). Go ahead and cut off two inches. Apply some yellow glue and stick it in the screw hole so it's flush. When it's dry, you can drill a pilot hole, then screw into it and it'll be about as sound as it ever was.

If your dowel is a little over sized, it's better to sand it down a little with some 60 grit than to enlarge the hole with the appropriate bit, but you can do it either way. A tighter fit is a better fit, really -- if you have to taper an end and then force it in, that's fine, as long as you don't have to pound it so hard that all the glue is wiped out of the joint. It's best if you can drill and screw into the dowel without it spinning while the glue is still setting. Remember, the screw itself is a spiral wedge, and will expand the plug to fit tightly in the old hole.

That sort of repair in wood is typically stronger than the wood itself -- well mated face grain surfaces with yellow glue is super strong. Put a properly glued joint in a hydraulic press and the wood will break, not the glue joint.

On the other hand, if your dowel is a little too small, mask the area well and use a two-part 30-minute epoxy because it will fill the gap. Wait several hours before messing with it. But again, tighter is better. I've rehung many, many doors, and installed countless doorknobs and locksets and deadbolts, and almost always I plug up the old holes to make a stronger fastening, be it for a door hinge or a strike plate.

I wouldn't recommend Gorilla Glue. Some would.

On a side note, I can't imagine not having tooth picks and bamboo skewers and a whole range of dowels for these kinds of repairs. On tiny projects, you usually don't even need glue or a new pilot hole. Stick in a toothpick, break it off, and now the screw will grab just fine. On small projects (the hinge on a kitchen cabinet door comes to mind), you usually need either glue or a pilot hole, but not both. Imagine the stripped hole -- it has jagged furrows instead of smooth walls. You pop in a dowel that barely fits. When you drill into the dowel, most of the wood fibers in the dowel will stay intact, because the grain runs along the length of the dowel. They can stretch and bend and will wedge into those furrows and make a tight fit. It's almost like they jacket the screw.

This is also how you can move a hole a smidge to one side. Plug the old one, make it solid and flush, drill a new pilot hole. Moving a 1/4" hole 1/8" to the side is nearly impossible otherwise.

I hope that makes sense!



That's a lot of pesto.
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Wow!
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: March 12, 2012 02:28PM
Mike, you rock!

I've CnP'ed that for later use.

Thanks!



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Re: Longer door hinge screws don't have enough reach on the house side, now what?
Posted by: deckeda
Date: March 12, 2012 07:03PM
Cool, I like having choices. Didn't get to it today. Went back to HD and Lowes looking for #9 3" screws and found none. (They've both been out of stock for a few days or more.) I got #10 4" screws but am reluctant to use a #10 because of the head, and don't want to enlarge the hole any more unless necessary. Both holes aren't stripped badly---you can't pull out the existing screws. They just don't tighten.

I'm liking the glued toothpick idea; doubt anything bigger would fit in. And it sounds as if I wouldn't need super long screws. We're not concerned with anyone breaking the door in, it's that glass right by it that's probably a bigger target (the deadbolt uses a key on the inside as well, not a lever, and the key is is not kept in the door.)

Question about the toothpick/dowel method. Should I expect the drill to still go straight perpendicular in, assuming I hold the drill level, or will all the stuff in there cause the drill bit to dance around and wind up cockeyed?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/12/2012 07:05PM by deckeda.
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Re: Longer door hinge screws don't have enough reach on the house side, now what?
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: March 12, 2012 07:21PM
If you use the toothpick method, drill the pilot hold to the proper depth, then put the toothpick in to shim the screw. If the hole is true, the screw will follow. It might be the tiniest bit cockeyed, but if the head fits the countersunk portion, error, if at all, should be minimal.

If you don't let the dowel and glue dry properly, it may spin if you drill with too much speed and push too hard.

But let it set up, drill the pilot hole with light pressure, and you should have no problem when putting the screw in the dowel.



You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

-An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

There is no safety for honest men
except by believing all possible evil
of evil men.

Pixels were born to be punished. -Frederick Van Johnson

Mister, that's a ten-gallon hat on a twenty-gallon head.

I *love* Sigs. It's Glocks I hate.
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Re: Longer door hinge screws don't have enough reach on the house side, now what?
Posted by: RE:up
Date: March 12, 2012 07:37PM
Quote
deckeda
I (the deadbolt uses a key on the inside as well, not a lever, and the key is is not kept in the door.)

That is a safety issue. In this part of the country it’s not allowed via building codes. What if you need to make a quick emergency exit and can’t get to the key?

Also, make sure the screws you get are long enough to bite into the jack stud at least an inch.
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Re: Longer door hinge screws don't have enough reach on the house side, now what?
Posted by: Jimmypoo
Date: March 13, 2012 10:23AM
I didn’t read every post, but when I removed an old front door down to the brick, when I rehung it, I used
the longest drywall/deck screws I could find to secure the door to the house (thru trim, and patched),
including thru the hinges.

Where needed, I supplemented the jack with a 1” strip with Liq Nails & screws of its own (Liq Nails to prevent
stress splintering) for one hinge (there was an odd set-up to do with a plumbing vent/line from basement).

Whoever wants to replace that door with one that includes side-lights will need C4 to get it off the house.

I probably used the long drywall deck screws every 9” or less (top of door frame had 3)— as the house was rural,
and the original solid wood door had been fractured from a break-in when it was empty.

The owner installed giant flat ¼” x 1” shaped steel plate 12" long "j-hooks" on each side of the door,
(like the type you might hang a bike upon, but you could hang an axle on these…) and a 1” x 4” by 4 feet long
solid steel bar like a railroad crossing! to keep the door secure (and installed an alarm system) which I
inherited upon purchase.

SO… the kids just broke the back window instead to get in and drink beer… but the alarm went off.

That 1x4 x 48 steel bar probably weighed 30 pounds.
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