Finally settled on a car. Met our requirements, and it even had aftermarket leather added to it which was really nice.

Then my wife sat in the driver's seat.

Fail

She can't push the clutch all the way in without having the steering wheel way too closer to her (~10". Tried a couple others of the same model, same issue.

Then we tried a VW GTI and she had no problem. The biggest difference was that the telescoping steering wheel goes quite a bit closer to the dash than the other car.

Earlier I looked at a Volvo. I'm not that tall, just 6'2". I can't put the driver's seat far enough back to drive comfortably, let alone for long trips.

I also looked at a couple other cars, and turns out that once you get the front seat far enough back to be comfortable, there's not enough room in the back seat for a child seat and a kid's legs.

I can't believe how uncomfortable some car seats are, while other MFGs have had it figured it out for many years. I can't believe how such basic things like designing the seat angle and the steering wheel so someone that's not super short (5' 3" can actually drive it, is something they don't do.

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I wanted a Toyota Matrix back in 2000, but the seat was torture....In order reach the pedals comfortably, the steering wheel was too far away...to get that a good reach, my legs were scrunched up. I am NOT a tall man. My MPV isn't the greatest seat, but better than many.

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She's too small for the driver's seat?

That's funny!

I'm a tall guy. I have a hard time finding a car that's not designed for people half my height. My knees usually end up banging against the back of the steering wheel or smacking the console. Even in SUVs.

My pet theory is that most car designers are midgets and this is their revenge.

So you got a GTI?

---

----

The Secret Diary of Steve Jobs [www.fakesteve.net]

They're all designed for this guy...

Can you trade in your wife for a newer/larger model?



But seriously, I found that one of these was a lifesaver in my Prius.

---

Freya says, 'Hello from NOLA, baby!' (Laissez bon temps rouler!)

FYI, the honda civic, historically, as some of the worst seats made. I mean, flat out terrible. You have to go acura to get anything decent.

How many miles do you drive this car a year? if more than 15k, ever think about the new passat TDI? Supposed to be very nice.

If you end up going VW, let me know...I have some resources to point you toward...

---

----------------------

Quote
Chakravartin
She's too small for the driver's seat?

More so the steering wheel doesn't go into the dash far enough for her to be able to push the clutch all the way in without her face being in the steering wheel.

Quote
jdc
So you got a GTI?

No. They only had a new one on the lot. Trying to find a used one but there's not many in this area. Would like a 4 door, 2010 for about $20k.

Quote
Kiva
FYI, the honda civic, historically, as some of the worst seats made. I mean, flat out terrible. You have to go acura to get anything decent.

How many miles do you drive this car a year? if more than 15k, ever think about the new passat TDI? Supposed to be very nice.

If you end up going VW, let me know...I have some resources to point you toward...

I sat in a few Civics today. Yeah, seats weren't very good. Amazing considering it's one thing all cars have in common.

I'll put 9k/yr on commuting. Maybe another 5k with other stuff.

Not really looking at TDIs because they're more expensive and it would take many, many years for the difference in fuel economy to break even on the cost difference. I like Passats, but a manual is a must for a euro car, IMHO. I plan on keeping it for a long time, don't want to have to worry about big transmission repair bills.

What VW resources are you thinking of? I know a lot of Audi peeps, and thus have some VW resources as well.

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I think you're looking for any excuse to get another German car


PeterB, not sure how that's gonna help? she can push the clutch all the way in, but then she's too close the the steering wheel. Move the seat back to make her comfortable, then she cannot reach the pedal. M A V I C, you need a photomodel (long legs)

I own a couple of Civics a 2007 & a 2009.. I'm 6'2" 235, they both fit me fine and the seats are fine.

I don't ride in really upscale cars so maybe the Civic wouldn't rate with something that costs twice (or 3x-5x) the price, but for $17000 new, they are just fine.

Mavic,

At 6'2" you are actually about 4 or so inches above average in height (for a man) and that can make a significant difference in how you fit in the seat of a car. Much in the same way that I'm on about 4 or so inches below average in height for a man and it definitely had an impact when looking at cars.

Robert

My wife has back problems, so finding a wagon/crossover (space for dog in back) was hard, because she didn't like the seating position on any that we tried. Finally settled on an '07 Subaru Outback (this was in '08) with a power seat. She likes it, and when I get to drive it (not often), I find the car handles well (better than the Volvo wagon we tried, which handled like a tank), and moves out OK in Sport Mode (AT). The new Outbacks (since the 2011 model) look more bulbous and carlike, losing their character IMO.

/Mr Lynn

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On the river in Saxonville.

That is surprising. Between adjustments for the steering wheel and seat my short-legged self (5'4" can drive pretty much anything and not be on top of the steering wheel. My newest Jeep even has adjustable pedals.

Oh, welcome to realityville. The sad truth is that, while things are designed by engineers, they are APPROVED by marketing executives and other technically clueless wonks and wonkettes.

History is replete with good designs made horrible by interfering morons.

My personal favorite was one I worked on... a naval gun mount. The marketing idiot decided to get an 'artist's rendition' to sell the product to the Navy. So without talking to a single engineer, he had a rendition made. It was based on a particularly 'cool' looking WWII naval gun mount which, as it turns out, was horribly inaccurate. Because the twin 30mm. cannon were on opposite sides of the Azimuth bearing.

We spent millions trying to fix this basic screwup... and the thing still scattered rounds like a particularly badly designed blunderbuss.

Keep looking Mavic you folks will find a car that works for you. That said, you may even need to take a day or two off and have some down time away from the car dealers and shopping for cars. Perseverance furthers ~!~ Good luck. We will be waiting to hear what ended up working for you and your wife.

Rudie

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/30/2012 08:58AM by haikuman.

Quote
M A V I C
...
She can't push the clutch all the way in without having the steering wheel way too closer to her (~10" ). Tried a couple others of the same model, same issue.
...

isn't 10" like a reasonable space between the steering wheel and driver? how much space would you/she consider reasonable?

FWIW,, I find that my 2002 Honda Civic has a very comfortable seat for me.. I'm 5' 10", 200 lbs. But then again my butt and back have been in that seat for almost 150K miles. It's kind of molded to me, like a nicely worn in pair of boots.

Quote
M A V I C
I'm not that tall, just 6'2". I can't put the driver's seat far enough back to drive comfortably, let alone for long trips.

Yeah, that is actually pretty tall, not like NBA tall, but more than most people you see everyday.

Mavic: I was thinking vwvortex (watch out for the kiddos there, though), Ross-Tech for VCDS, Tdiclub (if doing TDI, which you aren't and shouldn't due to low annual mileage)

re: civic seats....once you sit in something good, you'll never go back. For me, I didn't realize how uncomfortable I was until I sat in my 03 wagon seats (which are actually out of an 01 GTI).

I'd love to get an audi....can't afford it...

---

----------------------

Citing height as the sole defining physical characteristic ignores the fact that the length of torsos and legs varies.

Maybe they need to make cars in Short, Regular, and Tall like they do suits.

As for the original question -- engineers design these things. The problem is, they don't all talk to each other, and each group has to design within their own set of constraints. As a whole, they target certain parameters, but those can only cover a certain subset of the population.

Quote
space-time

Quote
M A V I C
...
She can't push the clutch all the way in without having the steering wheel way too closer to her (~10" ). Tried a couple others of the same model, same issue.
...

isn't 10" like a reasonable space between the steering wheel and driver? how much space would you/she consider reasonable?

I just looked that up. Looks like officially it's just "as far back as possible" but apparently less than 10" is considered a big problem. Considering she can sit back another 4-6" in the GTI, we'll keep looking.

Quote
mikebw

Quote
M A V I C
I'm not that tall, just 6'2". I can't put the driver's seat far enough back to drive comfortably, let alone for long trips.

Yeah, that is actually pretty tall, not like NBA tall, but more than most people you see everyday.

Well, I might be just a bit above average, but I leave "tall" for people maybe 6' 6"+.

Quote
Kiva
Mavic: I was thinking vwvortex (watch out for the kiddos there, though), Ross-Tech for VCDS, Tdiclub (if doing TDI, which you aren't and shouldn't due to low annual mileage)

re: civic seats....once you sit in something good, you'll never go back. For me, I didn't realize how uncomfortable I was until I sat in my 03 wagon seats (which are actually out of an 01 GTI).

I'd love to get an audi....can't afford it...

Thanks. I've been checking the classifieds on vortex. I actually use the audi side (fourtitude) some. I've got VAD for reading/modding my ECUs.

Quote
Bimwad
Citing height as the sole defining physical characteristic ignores the fact that the length of torsos and legs varies.

Maybe they need to make cars in Short, Regular, and Tall like they do suits.

As for the original question -- engineers design these things. The problem is, they don't all talk to each other, and each group has to design within their own set of constraints. As a whole, they target certain parameters, but those can only cover a certain subset of the population.

Well, if a passenger seat is uncomfortable for my wife and for myself, the it's got to be uncomfortable for just about everyone. She's 11" shorter than I. At least some engineers are capable of designing seats that are comfortable for a wide range of body types. I don't get why others are still employed when they're obviously incapable of this.

Heck, in the GTI when I move the seat all the way back I've got probably 10" more legroom than I did in the Volvo.

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/30/2012 11:17AM by M A V I C.

The best car I ever owned in terms of seat comfort and function was our Saturn L series.

I find the Honda civic seat to be fine and in 6'2" as well.

Quote
cbelt3
Oh, welcome to realityville. The sad truth is that, while things are designed by engineers, they are APPROVED by marketing executives and other technically clueless wonks and wonkettes.

History is replete with good designs made horrible by interfering morons.

My personal favorite was one I worked on... a naval gun mount. The marketing idiot decided to get an 'artist's rendition' to sell the product to the Navy. So without talking to a single engineer, he had a rendition made. It was based on a particularly 'cool' looking WWII naval gun mount which, as it turns out, was horribly inaccurate. Because the twin 30mm. cannon were on opposite sides of the Azimuth bearing.

We spent millions trying to fix this basic screwup... and the thing still scattered rounds like a particularly badly designed blunderbuss.

Guns mounts on a Honda Civic - COOL!

---

RIP, Greg the DogSitter. You are missed.

I just looked that up. Looks like officially it's just "as far back as possible" but apparently less than 10" is considered a big problem. Considering she can sit back another 4-6" in the GTI, we'll keep looking.

I measured the distance from the 6 o'clock on my steeering wheel to my abdomen, it's 8.5 inches. It seems just fine to me. The way the stering wheel is stilted, I guess I have about 14-15" to the center of the steering wheel and about 20" to the top

YMMV of course

The center is what matters most. When I searched, I read that if you're 2-3" from the steering wheel when the airbag deploys, death via airbag is very common. Starting off at 10", you gotta hope the airbags deploy properly and that not much else is going on, or you could get hurt pretty badly or even killed.

14-15" to center is pretty good. She might only be 6-8" away when she has the clutch fully depressed. Of course, braking would bring her closer to the wheel as well.

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Quote
M A V I C

Quote
mikebw

Quote
M A V I C
I'm not that tall, just 6'2". I can't put the driver's seat far enough back to drive comfortably, let alone for long trips.

Yeah, that is actually pretty tall, not like NBA tall, but more than most people you see everyday.

Well, I might be just a bit above average, but I leave "tall" for people maybe 6' 6"+.

That's ridiculous. Pretty much anywhere in the world (except perhaps for the Netherlands and some African villages), 6'2" IS tall. 6'4" is taller.

When discussing the concept of "tall" with the general population, you have to use the general population's definition of "tall," not MAVIC's personal definition. I can assure you that carmakers use the general definition of "tall" when designing their products.

---

RIP, Greg the DogSitter. You are missed.

Quote
N-OS X-tasy!

Quote
M A V I C

Quote
mikebw

Quote
M A V I C
I'm not that tall, just 6'2". I can't put the driver's seat far enough back to drive comfortably, let alone for long trips.

Yeah, that is actually pretty tall, not like NBA tall, but more than most people you see everyday.

Well, I might be just a bit above average, but I leave "tall" for people maybe 6' 6"+.

That's ridiculous. Pretty much anywhere in the world (except perhaps for the Netherlands and some African villages), 6'2" IS tall. 6'4" is taller.

When discussing the concept of "tall" with the general population, you have to use the general population's definition of "tall," not MAVIC's personal definition. I can assure you that carmakers use the general definition of "tall" when designing their products.

Well, if you go back to my original statement I said "I'm not that tall" - so obviously I know I'm somewhat tall. Even still, for cars sold in the US it seems strange that they would make them undrivable for someone my height.

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Mavic,

This is where you're making an incorrect generalization. I know many people who are over 6' tall and drive vehicles of all sizes and types. Compact SUVs, full size SUVs, compact cars, mid-size cars, you name it. Even SMART cars. I always wonder how they fit but somehow it works for them. That you can't find a vehicle that works for you doesn't mean cars sold in the US don't suit other people who are tall.

Like I said in your other thread(s). The car you want is going to be very difficult to find because of your criteria. You've limited your options significantly. Considering the difficulties you're having, maybe you should consider loosening them a tad. I being completely serious here. You might have to loosen your criteria a bit to find a car that works for you.

Consider... It took me nearly a year before I found a vehicle to replace my aging Jeep Cherokee. A year. I knew I wanted a compact SUV. It was just a question of which one. One of the things I said in the beginning of my search was "No vehicles with a turbo or premium fuel requirement". After a year of searching and test driving nearly every compact SUV on the market, I test drove the Mazda CX-7 and bought it the very next day. It has a turbo and prefers premium fuel. Go figure.

Robert

Robert, I don't understand your comment about the height issue with the one car I cited. There's no way a taller person can operate it because there's not enough leg room to get your feet atop the pedals. It's physically impossible. Sometimes one can angle a leg to the side, move the steering wheel up, move the seat back and down... but in this car (a Volvo V50) none of that would get it so I could safely drive the car.

Sure there may be a lot of other cars that work, that I'm not talking about. I'm talking about why someone would engineer a car that can't be driven by someone of my leg length or greater (or possibly a bit shorter).

The reverse issue is true with the car my wife tried out.

I don't find my criteria as the issue. There's TONS of cars that would work sold in other countries. The issue may be that many Americans settle for crap and thus car companies don't feel a need to supply the better stuff here.

How loosening my criteria would help yield a car that would work for me? All it would do is add the potential that I would buy a car that doesn't work for me.

There's things like the ability to easily and quickly hit the brakes... there's no way I'm going to drop that. Nor the need to pull yourself out of the seat to push the clutch in. That's basic stuff, IMHO.

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Mavic,

To understand my comment you need to look at the bigger picture. I deem it incredibly unlikely that nobody of your height has bought a Volvo V50. You're taking an individual issue and making a generalization out of it. Again, it doesn't work for you or your wife.

The following are your original criteria:

-4 door (car seat can easily go in backseat)
-avant/wagon style, or at least a big trunk
-manual transmission
-safe
-would like to have factory roof rails (so I can easily swap my existing rack)
-decent power
-in the $10-$15k range
-comfy for long trips
-25MPG+

There's TONS of cars that would work sold in other countries really has no bearing on your current problem. You're not in another country. You're here. So, you have to work with what is available. Seems to me loosening some of your original criteria even just a little, i.e. price, gas mileage, manual transmission, etc may yield a car that still works for you.

Definitely don't change your safety criteria. I agree wholeheartedly that safety is key and I refused to loosen my safety standard when looking at compact SUVs. Modifying some of the other criteria may yield results that will still work for you, even if it isn't perfection. In the end, that's what I had to do and I found the car that works for me. Maybe the same thing will happen with you.

Robert

Quote
Robert M
... One of the things I said in the beginning of my search was "No vehicles with a turbo or premium fuel requirement".

I'm surprised by this anymore.

13 gallons of regular at 4.00/gallon: $52.00
13 gallons of regular at 4.20/gallon: $54.60

Yes, pennies add up, but it's not the 15 - 25% greater cost that it used to be.

Quote
Robert M
To understand my comment you need to look at the bigger picture. I deem it incredibly unlikely that nobody of your height has bought a Volvo V50. You're taking an individual issue and making a generalization out of it. Again, it doesn't work for you or your wife.

Neither of us can say for sure if they've bought them or not, but there's no way someone with my leg length can safely drive one.

Quote

There's TONS of cars that would work sold in other countries really has no bearing on your current problem. You're not in another country. You're here. So, you have to work with what is available.

Cause and effect. The lack of available cars that meet my criteria isn't the cause of the issue, it's the effect. No, I can't do anything about the cause, but I want to be clear that it's not my criteria that's the root issue.

Quote

Seems to me loosening some of your original criteria even just a little, i.e. price, gas mileage, manual transmission, etc may yield a car that still works for you.

Maybe we look at cars differently. I had a discussion with my neighbor yesterday. He pretty much only buys new cars. After some discussion, he said he doesn't know the mechanical functions of a car at all, and thus he wont own a car with more than 100k miles. So he considers the life of a car to be 100k miles. Thus if a car is $20k new, and used it has 20k miles on it, he expects it to be less than $16k used. That's just not the case, so he buys new.

Over 300k, a automatic transmission (VW for example) needs to be serviced five times for $500 each. That's $2500. If it experiences a lot of strain, it may have to be replaced in that time too. That can be another $3000.

Over 300k, a manual transmission (VW to keep with it) has to be serviced three times at $100 each. That's $300. It would have to be really abused to be replaced, and that will cost maybe $1000.

That's $1300 vs $5000. I'd rather save the $3700 and use it on other things.

That said, we are considering automatics for Hondas and Subarus.

Gas mileage... when there's cars that have a lot of room, features... get 42MPG and have 200+ HP, I don't think 25MPG is that much to ask for.

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