I had an email this morning from a former employee asking if he could give my name as a reference. He's a nice guy who never did anything terrible, but there were several big disappointments and costly mistakes and I breathed a big sigh of relief when he left. It may be worth mentioning that mine is a tiny business, currently only me. He was the only employee for about seven years, until I just flat ran out of money to pay him.

I guess I'm inclined to say he can use me as a reference, but what do I say if a potential employer's HR department calls me?

Prince Charming: You! You can't lie! So tell me puppet... where... is... Shrek?
Pinocchio: Uh. Hmm, well, uh, I don't know where he's not
Prince Charming: You're telling me you don't know where Shrek is?
Pinocchio: It wouldn't be inaccurate to assume that I couldn't exactly not say that it is or isn't almost partially incorrect.
Prince Charming: So you do know where he is!
Pinocchio: On the contrary. I'm possibly more or less not definitely rejecting the idea that in no way with any amount of uncertainty that I undeniably
Prince Charming: Stop it!
Pinocchio: ...do or do not know where he shouldn't probably be, if that indeed wasn't where he isn't. Even if he wasn't at where I knew he was.
Pinocchio: That'd mean I'd really have to know where he wasn't.

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__________________________________
Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity

Since he was with you for SEVEN years you need to look into the mirror and see where YOU let HIM down!

Most reference checks are met with Confirmation of time employed, Title, Rate of Pay, etc. Only the facts.

Find good things to say about his character, honesty, ability, etc. Your reference is also about what you can't say and some of it is about what you DON'T say.

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Bill
Flagler Beach, FL 32136

Carpe Vino!

Fermentation may have been a greater discovery than fire.
— David Rains Wallace

It's a bad job market and the guy was obviously a loyal employee for many years. Give him as good of a reference as you can ethically muster, or just state that it's your policy to only verify employment dates and job duties.

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Le poète doit vivre beaucoup, vivre dans tous les sens. - Verlaine

You had me until you said hew as your only employee for seven years. Just about any potential employer is going to expect him to use you as a reference. And if you don't, you'll pretty much prevent him from getting a job.

Was he bad enough you don't think he should stay in the industry? Otherwise act as a reference, just don't say anything dishonest (and don't say anything negative... check your state laws on that.)

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WARNING WILL ROBINSON ! DANGER !!!
Giving a reference is a dang snake-pit. People get sued for saying ANYTHING other than "He worked for me for seven years. He was let go due to changing business conditions and reduced business levels."

Most corporate HR people have trained us over the years to say pretty much "Yes, I worked with the person. They were an employee here. Please ask HR about anything else."

Why DID you keep him around for seven years, anyhow? Inertia? Or did he have redeeming qualities which he would bring to a new job?

It is true that you are best off just saying how long he worked for you and that you had to let him go because you could no longer pay him. Or you could add that he was honest, or hard working, or some such thing, if indeed he was. Because refusing any additional information will be pretty damning in and of itself.

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"Stop thinking about art works as objects, and start thinking about them as triggers for experiences." ~ Brian Eno

....MEH thinks you doth protest too much......????

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____________________________________________________

I reject your reality and substitute my own!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/13/2012 03:27PM by NewtonMP2100.

Quote
bazookaman
Prince Charming: You! You can't lie! So tell me puppet... where... is... Shrek?
Pinocchio: Uh. Hmm, well, uh, I don't know where he's not
Prince Charming: You're telling me you don't know where Shrek is?
Pinocchio: It wouldn't be inaccurate to assume that I couldn't exactly not say that it is or isn't almost partially incorrect.
Prince Charming: So you do know where he is!
Pinocchio: On the contrary. I'm possibly more or less not definitely rejecting the idea that in no way with any amount of uncertainty that I undeniably
Prince Charming: Stop it!
Pinocchio: ...do or do not know where he shouldn't probably be, if that indeed wasn't where he isn't. Even if he wasn't at where I knew he was.
Pinocchio: That'd mean I'd really have to know where he wasn't.

I crack up every time I see that scene, and written out like that is almost funnier.

"I can't say enough good things about him."

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Our HR department will only confirm or deny previous employment. They don't offer any performance information.

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**************************************
Nothing to see here, move along.

Quote
$tevie
Why DID you keep him around for seven years, anyhow?

Because I had agreed to sponsor him for immigration (permanent residency) and took that commitment seriously. After 9/11, immigration waitlists that had previously been a year or so stretched out to many many many years.

where is the "meh" girl

Quote
Mr Downtown

Quote
$tevie
Why DID you keep him around for seven years, anyhow?

Because I had agreed to sponsor him for immigration (permanent residency) and took that commitment seriously. After 9/11, immigration waitlists that had previously been a year or so stretched out to many many many years.

That was nice of you. I'm being serious.

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"Stop thinking about art works as objects, and start thinking about them as triggers for experiences." ~ Brian Eno

"Because I had agreed to sponsor him for immigration (permanent residency) and took that commitment seriously. After 9/11, immigration waitlists that had previously been a year or so stretched out to many many many years."


By not being HONEST with him during the seven years he worked for you, how was he supposed to know you were less than thrilled with his work? Now is not the time to correct this. Confirm he was with you for seven years and the economy required you to downsize. It will be all the truth you need to report.

Quote
$tevie

Quote
Mr Downtown

Quote
$tevie
Why DID you keep him around for seven years, anyhow?

Because I had agreed to sponsor him for immigration (permanent residency) and took that commitment seriously. After 9/11, immigration waitlists that had previously been a year or so stretched out to many many many years.

That was nice of you. I'm being serious.

I agree. I also got the permanent resident status through my job, although working for a large company. I waited about 5 years, of which 3 were due to thing moving very slowly in our HR department, but yes, there was a large backlog in 2002-2006 time frame. I don't know what the waiting time is these days thought, I think it is a little faster.

Quote
testcase
By not being HONEST with him during the seven years he worked for you, how was he supposed to know you were less than thrilled with his work?

Why do you assume I was not honest with him about my disappointment or that he did not know? He cost me a couple of big clients and jeopardized others. But the immigration situation gave me few options and a lot of sleepless nights.

Mr. Downtown is one of the most amazing people that post on this forum. Not sure why so many are inclined to give him the Jerry®™ treatment.
It's possible to have a specific question without being a complete blank slate in every other aspect.

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MR/F Guestmap: [www.mapservices.org]

Quote
Mr Downtown
I had an email this morning from a former employee asking if he could give my name as a reference. He's a nice guy who never did anything terrible, but there were several big disappointments and costly mistakes and I breathed a big sigh of relief when he left. It may be worth mentioning that mine is a tiny business, currently only me. He was the only employee for about seven years, until I just flat ran out of money to pay him.

I guess I'm inclined to say he can use me as a reference, but what do I say if a potential employer's HR department calls me?

Tell the truth, as you see it. Review how you see it before acting on that reflex.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/14/2012 12:03AM by RgrF.

Quote
space-time
where is the "meh" girl

"Meh" girl says that he should give the recommendation. After all, she wouldn't be wearing the T-shirt if she herself hadn't been recommended for the position. Or would she...?

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Freya says, 'Hello from NOLA, baby!' (Laissez bon temps rouler!)

I recommend the "meh" girl.

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RIP, Greg the DogSitter. You are missed.