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LCD TV criticism: "It looks like a home movie."
Posted by: deckeda
Date: December 22, 2014 12:16AM
Except it's a major Hollywood movie being shown at 1080p and the comparison is to a 720p plasma ... Stop me if you've heard this one before. ;)

Dad picked up a low end plasma this summer, an LG. Same exact model my sister has. He buys a second TV for downstairs, an LCD (LG smart TV). The comment was my sister's but she's right, there's a clean, smooth sheen to it. No noticeable "judder" or motion artifacts but a hard to characterize fakeness about the picture. This despite the colors being a bit more natural than his plasma (but the plasma smokes the LCD on contrast/black levels.)

I began to lose interest after a while. It's s similar reaction I get from lackluster digital audio. Faultless and yet boring, something that your blind testing can't reveal.
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Re: LCD TV criticism: "It looks like a home movie."
Posted by: Racer X
Date: December 22, 2014 12:36AM
There is quantitative testing that generates numbers, and there is qualitative analysis, which is hard to pin down without looking.

Case in point. My ex-wife had Lasik. Her vision numerically improved, but her regular astigmatism, which was correctable with glasses, became irregular, which isn't correctable. Since her numbers improved, it was a "success", but that doesn't illustrate the amorphous soft spot in her vision in her dominant eye.

Numbers aren't everything.
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Re: LCD TV criticism: "It looks like a home movie."
Posted by: davemchine
Date: December 22, 2014 01:09AM
If you do a little googling there are settings you can adjust to improve the picture on an LCD tv. That said I can't say that I care for the look of most LCD tv's. I much prefer my Panasonic plasma.
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Re: LCD TV criticism: "It looks like a home movie."
Posted by: silvarios
Date: December 22, 2014 02:03AM
Turn off the smoothing effect.
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Re: LCD TV criticism: "It looks like a home movie."
Posted by: Gareth
Date: December 22, 2014 02:05AM
It's a result of the "high hertz" LCDs that smooth out motion. Great for sports, bad for movies I turn this feature off or to its lowest setting.
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Re: LCD TV criticism: "It looks like a home movie."
Posted by: (vikm)
Date: December 22, 2014 02:07AM
I've been meaning to start this topic as I just recently picked up an LCD after years of running a plasma and have experienced the EXACT same thing.

I got a great deal on a Panasonic LCD. (Disclaimer: it was an open box from Best Buy and I wondered if that didn't have something to do with my dissatisfaction with the picture quality).

Anyway, like deckeda mentioned I got a 1080P LCD. It's got the 120 refresh and is 40". I watched a number of films and shows from various sources and have since even added HD service from ATT. It freaked me out. It looks exactly like deck described. It's very bright and polished to the point it looks fake. It's as if films were shot using completely different lighting and often have either a "made for tv movie" feel or almost like some British television. It's not constant, but I'd say more often than not it has that feel.

The only thing different I've noticed is that there is artifacting.
My ~8yr old Vizio 42" Plasma with a 60 refresh and 720P looks as good or better in almost all comparisons.

I was are that some found a means of "correcting" this with settings from online and I'll attempt that before passing final judgment, but I wouldn't be surprised if I found myself taking it back and picking up a "lower" plasma again.

Not so much looking for answers as I was just confirming what deck was saying and that I felt much the same way and was VERY surprised by it.
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Re: LCD TV criticism: "It looks like a home movie."
Posted by: davemchine
Date: December 22, 2014 02:24AM
Why did you move from a 42" plasma to a 40" lcd? Did the plasma die?
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Re: LCD TV criticism: "It looks like a home movie."
Posted by: N-OS X-tasy!
Date: December 22, 2014 02:29AM
This is referred to the "soap opera" effect, due to the fact that the image looks like it was shot on video tape, like soap operas are.



It is what it is.
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Re: LCD TV criticism: "It looks like a home movie."
Posted by: (vikm)
Date: December 22, 2014 02:36AM
Quote
davemchine
Why did you move from a 42" plasma to a 40" lcd? Did the plasma die?

The plasma had developed a single fine vertical line down the screen about 1/3 over from the left side that was distracting at times. It was also old (and an energy hog).


Quote
N-OS X-tasy!
This is referred to the "soap opera" effect, due to the fact that the image looks like it was shot on video tape, like soap operas are.

Yep, that's what it looks like. Just weird.
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Re: LCD TV criticism: "It looks like a home movie."
Posted by: silvarios
Date: December 22, 2014 02:38AM
Quote
(vikm)
Quote
N-OS X-tasy!
This is referred to the "soap opera" effect, due to the fact that the image looks like it was shot on video tape, like soap operas are.

Yep, that's what it looks like. Just weird.

Disable or reduce the blur setting.
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Re: LCD TV criticism: "It looks like a home movie."
Posted by: (vikm)
Date: December 22, 2014 02:58AM
Quote
silvarios
Quote
(vikm)
Quote
N-OS X-tasy!
This is referred to the "soap opera" effect, due to the fact that the image looks like it was shot on video tape, like soap operas are.

Yep, that's what it looks like. Just weird.

Disable or reduce the blur setting.

I just looked and I think it's called "Motion Picture Setting" and I just turned it off. I'll give it a day or so watching different things (mostly movies in HD) and see if it helps.

Thanks for the info. Deck, thanks for starting the thread.
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Re: LCD TV criticism: "It looks like a home movie."
Posted by: silvarios
Date: December 22, 2014 03:27AM
Hope the setting change helps.
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Re: LCD TV criticism: "It looks like a home movie."
Posted by: mrlynn
Date: December 22, 2014 06:10AM
We have a Samsung 55" LCD and it seems fine. Compared to the Mitsubishi 32" CRT we had before, it's fantastic. But I've never had a plasma TV. Then we mostly watch DVDs for our weekly movie, often real oldies, so we probably couldn't tell the difference if we had one.

One thing I hate about the big LCD is watching talking heads on TV news. Between the minor skin defects and the goopy makeup, even decent-looking people look grotesque. Come to think of it, the closeups during baseball games are also most unflattering (totally unnecessary: who wants to watch guys spitting and picking their noses at full screen?). Anyway, I watch the news on the CRT in the kitchen, which is much better for that sort of thing.

/Mr Lynn



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Re: LCD TV criticism: "It looks like a home movie."
Posted by: deckeda
Date: December 22, 2014 06:49AM
I'll play with the settings today. I'd forgotten about the bandaid LCD needed.
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Re: LCD TV criticism: "It looks like a home movie."
Posted by: space-time
Date: December 22, 2014 07:03AM
related question: computer LCDs look decent in my opinion, but LCD TVs don't even come close. why is that?
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Re: LCD TV criticism: "It looks like a home movie."
Posted by: bazookaman
Date: December 22, 2014 07:08AM
When we visited my cousin, all their TVs had this turned on. They did not see it though. My wife and I couldn't watch a movie for more than a few minutes without commenting. I finally dug out the appropriate setting (tru motion, smooth motion, something along those lines) and turned it off and all was well.




__________________________________
Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity
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Re: LCD TV criticism: "It looks like a home movie."
Posted by: deckeda
Date: December 22, 2014 07:46AM
Quote
space-time
related question: computer LCDs look decent in my opinion, but LCD TVs don't even come close. why is that?

I was just thinking about this, too. I believe scale (screen size) has something to do with it. Something about the tech just probably wasn't originally envisioned for large screens.

Consider that conceptually, plasma is much closer to how CRTs create a picture, comprised of individual partial images, only lit by energized gas instead of by an electron beam hitting phosphor. Invented in the 30s, in use since the 60s.

LCD is newer but its Achilles' Heel is that it must control the creation of light by means of a shutter mechanism---you inherently won't get that to exactly match all possible frame rates.
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Re: LCD TV criticism: "It looks like a home movie."
Posted by: silvarios
Date: December 22, 2014 08:47AM
Quote
space-time
related question: computer LCDs look decent in my opinion, but LCD TVs don't even come close. why is that?

For movies? Really?
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Re: LCD TV criticism: "It looks like a home movie."
Posted by: BernDog
Date: December 22, 2014 08:47AM
My parents love the "soap opera" setting. I can't stand watching tv at their house. I've shown my dad the setting, A-B'ed it back and forth for him to show the difference, and he still decided to leave it on at its highest setting.
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Re: LCD TV criticism: "It looks like a home movie."
Posted by: datbeme
Date: December 22, 2014 09:12AM
That effect makes me ill, but as some have mentioned, II think you can usually turn it off. I've done it on my parents' and inlaws' LCD sets. It's usually called something like "Cinemotion" or " Cinema Smoothing."

Yet another reason I love plasma. It doesn't need these "features" just to combat motion blur.
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Re: LCD TV criticism: "It looks like a home movie."
Posted by: Robert M
Date: December 22, 2014 09:42AM
Hi everyone,

I've found that TVs of both types benefit from calibration. It can make a _huge_ difference in the viewing experience. Doesn't matter if it's a plasma or an LCD or LED model. All can benefit from tweaking. I've tweaked every LCD and LED TV I've purchased over the years and it's worked out well.

But, for many people, it doesn't matter. Seriously. Most picture tweaks are lost on my parents and one of my older brothers. The calibration would have to result in a huge improvement in the picture for them to care about it. And, in some cases, all the calibration and picture tweaking won't make a difference at all.

Heck, my wife and I purchased an 24" LED TV for my father-in-law because his 20+ year old tube TV conked out. The picture of the LED was good out of the box. Good. Not great. I tweaked the picture because I knew I could improve it all the more. A little tweaking turned a pretty good picture into a great picture. My father-in-law's response? He didn't like it in comparison to a standard def tube TV he had in a different room.

To my eyes, the tube TV wasn't in the same class as the LED. Great picture for a tube TV but not remotely as good as the picture of the new HD LED TV. The difference was immediately apparent and tangible. To his eyes, though, it was just the opposite. He ended up keeping the LED and hasn't complained about it, though.

I've found one of the best place to get calibration settings for TVs of both types is AVSforums. There are other places on the web as well. And, it's possible to download a freebie calibration DVD. Burn it to disc, throw it into an optical player and use it to tweak the settings,

Robert
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Re: LCD TV criticism: "It looks like a home movie."
Posted by: Bill in NC
Date: December 22, 2014 09:45AM
I've got relatives who love it.

But I can't stand it either - it makes every movie look like it was shot with a hand-held VHS camera.

Quote
BernDog
My parents love the "soap opera" setting. I can't stand watching tv at their house. I've shown my dad the setting, A-B'ed it back and forth for him to show the difference, and he still decided to leave it on at its highest setting.
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Re: LCD TV criticism: "It looks like a home movie."
Posted by: C(-)ris
Date: December 22, 2014 10:41AM
For those that do not like the "Soap Opera" effect, you do realize that your preference is for a less precise, non true, poorer picture? You want the edges blurred and slightly fuzzy edges. Technically speaking, the sharp crisp edges of the LCD sets and non blurring movement is true to real life and shows what is actually shot. Which is why it is perfect for sports and any live broadcasts.

Your mind has been trained to want to see movies and other non live/recorded events in a non precise manner that gives a certain non true picture and relates back to the limitations of using film for recording.



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Re: LCD TV criticism: "It looks like a home movie."
Posted by: rgG
Date: December 22, 2014 10:56AM
Quote
C(-)ris
For those that do not like the "Soap Opera" effect, you do realize that your preference is for a less precise, non true, poorer picture? You want the edges blurred and slightly fuzzy edges. Technically speaking, the sharp crisp edges of the LCD sets and non blurring movement is true to real life and shows what is actually shot. Which is why it is perfect for sports and any live broadcasts.

Your mind has been trained to want to see movies and other non live/recorded events in a non precise manner that gives a certain non true picture and relates back to the limitations of using film for recording.

That has always been what I thought, too. I don't understand wanting the "fuzzy" look.
Maybe it is just because I was born with very poorly focusing eyes, but I like my picture as crisp as possible.





Roswell, GA (Atlanta suburb)
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Re: LCD TV criticism: "It looks like a home movie."
Posted by: N-OS X-tasy!
Date: December 22, 2014 11:22AM
Quote
Robert M
But, for many people, it doesn't matter. Seriously. Most picture tweaks are lost on my parents and one of my older brothers. The calibration would have to result in a huge improvement in the picture for them to care about it.

I qualify getting rid of the soap opera effect as a huge improvement in picture quality.



It is what it is.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/22/2014 11:22AM by N-OS X-tasy!.
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Re: LCD TV criticism: "It looks like a home movie."
Posted by: N-OS X-tasy!
Date: December 22, 2014 11:26AM
Quote
C(-)ris
For those that do not like the "Soap Opera" effect, you do realize that your preference is for a less precise, non true, poorer picture? You want the edges blurred and slightly fuzzy edges. Technically speaking, the sharp crisp edges of the LCD sets and non blurring movement is true to real life and shows what is actually shot. Which is why it is perfect for sports and any live broadcasts.

The soap opera effect "flattens" the depicted image, destroying any sense of depth in the image. For me, this is the biggest reason I hate it.

I own a very nice plasma TV. Trust me - there is plenty of shapness in images depicted on its screen.



It is what it is.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/22/2014 12:15PM by N-OS X-tasy!.
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Re: LCD TV criticism: "It looks like a home movie."
Posted by: davemchine
Date: December 22, 2014 11:26AM
I'm reminded of the LP vs CD argument after reading Chris's post. While many people argue that LP's sound better it is much more likely that they find a familiar sound superior or that the noise inherent to LP's is more pleasing to some.

That said, the crap picture from some LCD's give me a headache.
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Re: LCD TV criticism: "It looks like a home movie."
Posted by: BernDog
Date: December 22, 2014 11:32AM
Quote
rgG
Quote
C(-)ris
For those that do not like the "Soap Opera" effect, you do realize that your preference is for a less precise, non true, poorer picture? You want the edges blurred and slightly fuzzy edges. Technically speaking, the sharp crisp edges of the LCD sets and non blurring movement is true to real life and shows what is actually shot. Which is why it is perfect for sports and any live broadcasts.

Your mind has been trained to want to see movies and other non live/recorded events in a non precise manner that gives a certain non true picture and relates back to the limitations of using film for recording.

That has always been what I thought, too. I don't understand wanting the "fuzzy" look.
Maybe it is just because I was born with very poorly focusing eyes, but I like my picture as crisp as possible.

With the settings turned off, you're seeing more closely what the director and cinematographer intended. Now, if Peter Jackson gets his way and everything bumps up to higher frame rates, that'll be a different story. I think I'll still prefer to see older material with the original frame rates, just as I still prefer black and white movies to their colorized versions now. In a similar vein, I'll take my Beatles in mono too.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/22/2014 11:38AM by BernDog.
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Re: LCD TV criticism: "It looks like a home movie."
Posted by: Robert M
Date: December 22, 2014 11:40AM
N-OS,

That's the thing. You care about it. I care about it depending on what I'm watching on the other set. Other people? Maybe, maybe not. And, if that person is satisfied with the picture, who am I to tell him/her it needs to be changed or tweaked because it's wrong based on my personal taste?

Robert
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Re: LCD TV criticism: "It looks like a home movie."
Posted by: p8712
Date: December 22, 2014 11:50AM
After reading this thread it looks like I'm the last person in North America still using DLP. Good.
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Re: LCD TV criticism: "It looks like a home movie."
Posted by: silvarios
Date: December 22, 2014 12:18PM
Quote
p8712
After reading this thread it looks like I'm the last person in North America still using DLP. Good.

Probably a few out there. Used to the cheapest way to get huge screens. Some people were bothered by the rainbow effect, some people don't seem to notice.
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Re: LCD TV criticism: "It looks like a home movie."
Posted by: p8712
Date: December 22, 2014 12:21PM
Quote
silvarios
Quote
p8712
After reading this thread it looks like I'm the last person in North America still using DLP. Good.

Probably a few out there. Used to the cheapest way to get huge screens. Some people were bothered by the rainbow effect, some people don't seem to notice.

I have conventional and LED DLP sets. The LED's can't produce rainbows - no color wheel.
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Re: LCD TV criticism: "It looks like a home movie."
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: December 22, 2014 12:27PM
This is referred to the "soap opera" effect, due to the fact that the image looks like it was shot on video tape, like soap operas are.

This is due to to a pattern of LCD TVs constructing "missing" frames (from 24fps) to smooth motion. Frames are sampled and used to approximate what would be in the frames if it were shot at a higher frame rate.

This is an artificial fix. Some people do see to prefer it. NO-S is spot on about flattening the scene. This often isn't just a matter of depth of field, but of the background blurring in motion scenes. With the artificial blending of frames, more objects are rendered more clearly.

The Soap Opera effect is less noticeable when viewing media actually shot at higher frame rates because you're seeing real video. Background detail that is in focus is also very clear.

I am really tired of the Lord of the Rings stuff, so I haven't bothered with The Hobbit. It as shot at 48fps.


I don't understand wanting the "fuzzy" look.
Maybe it is just because I was born with very poorly focusing eyes, but I like my picture as crisp as possible.


Your congenital eye condition probably does have a lot to do with it.

Contrary to what some people would have others believe, there is no right or wrong in what you prefer. Saying a format is better when it isn't is-- incorrect. But if it's your preference, ain't nuthin' wrong with that. You get to like what you like.

IF higher frame rates are a thing of the future, there will need to be adjustments made in creating media. I've seen some 60fps content that looks very lifelike compared to 23.9-30fps, and I like it.

But how a show or film is shot effects how we feel about content. Watching Band of Brothers on a buddy's LG with Tru Motion or whatever they call their process, it looked all wrong. I was not transported to that time.

We've been used to 24pfs forever, so with properly rendered high frame rate material, we might be able to change our preferences.

But seeing Donna Reed or Barbara Stanwyck or Humphrey Bogart is razor sharp precision is not my cup of tea.




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Re: LCD TV criticism: "It looks like a home movie."
Posted by: artie67
Date: December 22, 2014 12:44PM
Panasonic 56" DPL here and looking forward to seeing what the OLED's will offer in the future.
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Re: LCD TV criticism: "It looks like a home movie."
Posted by: silvarios
Date: December 22, 2014 01:03PM
Quote
p8712
I have conventional and LED DLP sets. The LED's can't produce rainbows - no color wheel.

Even better.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/22/2014 01:05PM by silvarios.
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Re: LCD TV criticism: "It looks like a home movie."
Posted by: Bill in NC
Date: December 22, 2014 02:15PM
I remain skeptical that OLED will be affordable in mass-market sets anytime soon.

I bet that 5 years from now we'll still be using LED-backlit LCDs for our 4K HDTVs.

Quote
artie67
Panasonic 56" DPL here and looking forward to seeing what the OLED's will offer in the future.
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Re: LCD TV criticism: "It looks like a home movie."
Posted by: Schpark
Date: December 22, 2014 03:46PM
I have a 720P 52" Mitsubishi DLP, a 37" 1080P LCD and a Panasonic 60" Plasma (GT30) also 1080P.

The DLP picture is very good actually except for blacks. I prefer it over the LCD. But the plasma is the best.



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Re: LCD TV criticism: "It looks like a home movie."
Posted by: deckeda
Date: December 22, 2014 03:52PM
Quote
N-OS X-tasy!
... The soap opera effect "flattens" the depicted image, destroying any sense of depth in the image. For me, this is the biggest reason I hate it. ...

Yes, this is exactly the comment the other criticizer in the room mentioned here yesterday: at first she thought the aspect ratio was wrong or the image was somehow cropped ... the "depth" of the image was that unnerving it wasn't immediately understood.

Quote
davemchine
I'm reminded of the LP vs CD argument after reading Chris's post. While many people argue that LP's sound better it is much more likely that they find a familiar sound superior or that the noise inherent to LP's is more pleasing to some. ...

I can fill in some gaps in misunderstanding here. The "familiar sound" you mention is that of real voices and instruments. The extra sampling Rammie mentions for LCDs is akin to sampling music digitally ... the math says it's a perfect recreation. The ear/brain says the math isn't actually describing the entire experience, so it's not entirely relevant except in the narrow areas the math completely describes.

What that means is that very good analog reproduction isn't enjoyed because of its flaws, it's enjoyed despite them. That's a critical distinction, not semantics.
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Re: LCD TV criticism: "It looks like a home movie."
Posted by: (vikm)
Date: December 22, 2014 04:21PM
Well, this turned out to be far more informative than expected. Still haven't gotten the time to load up anything to test it, but at least I'm educated now ;)
Thanks
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Re: LCD TV criticism: "It looks like a home movie."
Posted by: vision63
Date: December 22, 2014 08:53PM
I turn that feature off in every tv I ever encounter. Films look like the do because of the sensation of grain.
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Re: LCD TV criticism: "It looks like a home movie."
Posted by: davester
Date: December 22, 2014 11:25PM
I'm right there with ya vision63. Warning! Philosophical ideas ahead...

This conversation reminds me of an experience I had with a friend of mine. He was an amazing guitar and harmonica player. I used to go over to his place with my guitar and harmonicas and he used to play rings around me, producing amazing sounds out of his instruments while I tried desperately to keep up. We'd often put on a record or tape that one of us had to check out some good music. One day I commented on how the fidelity of his cheapo stereo could be improved by getting some better speakers. He rebutted that he didn't really care about the sound quality, just so long as he could hear the melody and the lyrics. In other words, fidelity doesn't matter that much. It's the creative talent that is on the other end that gives most of the pleasure, not the quality of the playback device.



"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." (1987) -- Carl Sagan



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/22/2014 11:26PM by davester.
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Re: LCD TV criticism: "It looks like a home movie."
Posted by: silvarios
Date: December 23, 2014 03:34AM
Quote
vision63
I turn that feature off in every tv I ever encounter. Films look like the do because of the sensation of grain.

Even films shot in all digital?
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Re: LCD TV criticism: "It looks like a home movie."
Posted by: vision63
Date: December 23, 2014 06:17AM
Quote
silvarios
Quote
vision63
I turn that feature off in every tv I ever encounter. Films look like the do because of the sensation of grain.

Even films shot in all digital?

Yeah, because they still look like they're shot on video tape. Hella annoying. Even films shot digitally are edited to mimic film grain. It's the best look.
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Re: LCD TV criticism: "It looks like a home movie."
Posted by: BernDog
Date: December 23, 2014 09:57AM
It's not "grain" or resolution, it's frame rate. Films shot all-digital (with a few exceptions) are still done at the frame rate film has used for just about forever. Video is shot at a higher frame rate. The motion smoothing effects try to fill in the blanks to emulate a higher frame rate to do what they do. The side effect is that it looks like cheap video.

This has nothing to do with resolution or a lack of it. It also has nothing to do with digital vs analog. It has to do with the technological choices that were made decades ago and became the defacto standard for how content was both created and perceived. Changing that audience expectation now is jarring. Look for debate on this topic when the first Hobbit movie came out.

Personally I can say I don't like it, but I say that knowing that it's mostly because I'm not used to it and it can be jarring. If higher frame rates take over, I'm sure I'll get over it. However, if the original vision of the content creators was for the traditional frame rate, I have no desire to watch it in any other format. I also don't want to watch colorized movies or movies cut down to 4:3 from their original aspect ratio.
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Re: LCD TV criticism: "It looks like a home movie."
Posted by: mikebw
Date: December 23, 2014 01:11PM
I saw the first part of The Hobbit in HFR 3D (48fps). I could immediately see the difference between it and lower framerate 3D movies. It felt very real, which I think for a movie that you go to see as a special experience is great, but I would not want that in my normal at-home watching experience. For that reason I have mostly turned off the 120Hz Motion-Smoothing or whatever it is called on my LCD TV.
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Re: LCD TV criticism: "It looks like a home movie."
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: December 23, 2014 07:16PM
I saw the first part of The Hobbit in HFR 3D (48fps). I could immediately see the difference between it and lower framerate 3D movies. It felt very real, which I think for a movie that you go to see as a special experience is great, but I would not want that in my normal at-home watching experience. For that reason I have mostly turned off the 120Hz Motion-Smoothing or whatever it is called on my LCD TV.

I don't like any of the TV motion-smoothing either.

But I believe their's a difference between true HFR and simulated HFR (TV motion-smoothing). Capturing data that's there is not the same as interpolating data to come up with something that wasn't. I could probably get used to true HFR.

If the movie industry moves to HFR, a change in shooting styles could make it a big deal. I'll have to wait and see what professional cinematographers say about it, if it happens.




When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men except
by believing all possible evil of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

Perfection is the enemy of progress. -Winston Churchill

-An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

Mister, that's a ten-gallon hat on a twenty-gallon head.

I *love* SIGs. It's Glocks I hate.
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