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Unmarked crosswalks
Posted by: Mike Johnson
Date: February 11, 2015 12:36AM
Not all crosswalks are marked.

Today while driving some ditship honked and made rude gestures at me because I stopped for a pedestrian in a crosswalk. It was an unmarked crosswalk, but a crosswalk nevertheless. The ditship yelled at me about how he didn’t see a painted crosswalk, and thus there was no crosswalk. He was so certain he was in the right that he threatened to report me to the DMV for not knowing how to drive.

I suspect this is a common mistake. I’ve posted before about my own experiences as a pedestrian. Crossing this same street (residential area, 30mph), just a couple blocks down, dozens of cars will refuse to stop for me as I stand in the roadway, in the unmarked crosswalk, trying to make eye contact with each and every driver. Maybe 1 in 50 cars will stop and when they do, chances are good it’s somebody I know.

I’m sure different states & other countries have different laws. If you’re not sure what constitutes an unmarked crosswalk, or what you’re supposed to do when a pedestrian is standing in one, please take two minutes of your time and google it.
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Re: Unmarked crosswalks
Posted by: davester
Date: February 11, 2015 12:52AM
Sounds pretty rude. Where do you live?



"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." (1987) -- Carl Sagan
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Re: Unmarked crosswalks
Posted by: C(-)ris
Date: February 11, 2015 12:55AM
How exactly does an unmarked crosswalk work? I'm just failing to see logically how that plays out.

If there are no markings how do you know it exists and is infact a crosswalk?



C(-)ris
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Throwback Thursday Signature:
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Re: Unmarked crosswalks
Posted by: Mike Johnson
Date: February 11, 2015 12:58AM
Ventura, California. This guy probably lives in my neighborhood; he had a kid in a car seat and it was maybe 4:00 in the afternoon. I’ll probably cross paths with him again & I hope he’ll be man enough to tell me he looked it up and feels bad about not knowing such a basic traffic safety law.
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Re: Unmarked crosswalks
Posted by: Mike Johnson
Date: February 11, 2015 01:06AM
You should look it up for your state. In California:

Quote
http://apps.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/hdbk/right_of_way.htm
Most intersections have a pedestrian crosswalk whether or not lines are painted on the street. Most crosswalks are located at corners, but they can also be located in the middle of the block. Before turning a corner, watch for people about to cross the street. Pedestrians have the right-of-way in marked or unmarked crosswalks.

This is the pedestrian in the unmarked crosswalk:


What really bothers me, on a policy level, is that a couple of studies have shown that there were more accidents in marked crosswalks than in unmarked crosswalks. Not everybody agrees that marking a crosswalk makes it dangerous, but many cities have been actively removing marked crosswalks in a bid to make the streets safer for pedestrians. I think before doing that, let’s make sure drivers understand that they have to stop for a pedestrian in a crosswalk (marked or not).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/11/2015 01:10AM by Mike Johnson.
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Re: Unmarked crosswalks
Posted by: steve...
Date: February 11, 2015 01:12AM
I was curious so I did look it up and you are correct. CA law says that pedestrians have the right of way in marked or unmarked crosswalks.

There are common sense laws for pedestrians also (I've had people walk out in front of me with little warning).




Northern California Coast
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Re: Unmarked crosswalks
Posted by: Mike Johnson
Date: February 11, 2015 01:31AM
Quote
steve...
I was curious so I did look it up and you are correct. CA law says that pedestrians have the right of way in marked or unmarked crosswalks.

There are common sense laws for pedestrians also (I've had people walk out in front of me with little warning).

It’s one thing when people cross midblock, especially between parked cars, or when getting out of a parked car, but anybody in a crosswalk didn’t get there by teleportation. They had to walk towards it, then step into it, at maybe 3mph. The corner where I would cross once, twice a day for six years, there’s not just an unmarked crosswalk, but also a couple dips, forcing drivers to slow. There would be times I’d thought I’d made eye contact with a driver, and he’d slow like he was coming to a stop, but nooooope. And if I’d stepped in front of his car and been hit, I guarantee he’d swear I appeared out of nowhere.

If every time I tried to stepped into an unmarked crosswalk, drivers stopped for me, I’d feel differently. But when ignorant/careless drivers seem to outnumber ignorant/careless pedestrians by 50:1, I’m going to side with pedestrians.
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Re: Unmarked crosswalks
Posted by: artie67
Date: February 11, 2015 01:33AM
In our part of North Lost Angels the new markings seem to be that residential intersections with no Stop Signs or Signals are not marked with lines.
Intersections with a Stop Sign has a single bar from the curb to the center of the road. When a Signal exists the English "Abbey Road" bars go curb to curb.
Drivers are to yield to the pedestrian even in an unmarked intersection.
Pedestrians can cross mid-block if not impeding the flow of traffic.
I have to take the written exam soon and will post corrections to above, if necessary.
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Re: Unmarked crosswalks
Posted by: M>B>
Date: February 11, 2015 02:15AM
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Re: Unmarked crosswalks
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: February 11, 2015 03:00AM
If there are no markings how do you know it exists and is infact a crosswalk?

You should look it up for your state.


Anybody who holds a motor vehicle driver's license should know the rules of the road regarding pedestrians in their state.

275 CVC
"Crosswalk" is either:
(a) That portion of a roadway included within the prolongation or connection of the boundary lines of sidewalks at intersection where the intersecting roadways meet at approximately right angles, except the prolongation of such lines from an alley across a street.

(b) Any portion of a roadway distinctly indicated for pedestrian crossing by lines or other markings on the surface.

Notwithstanding the foregoing provisions of this section, there shall not be a crosswalk where local authorities have placed signs indicating no crossing.


Also, there are no unmarked crosswalks between uncontrolled intersections, meaning no STOP signs or traffic signals.

Where vehicles have the right of way, they are still required to yield it to pedestrians to avoid the risk of collision. Whether or not in a crosswalk, pedestrians are required to use similar due care and caution when crossing.




When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

Everybody matters or nobody matters.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men except
by believing all possible evil of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

-An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

Mister, that's a ten-gallon hat on a twenty-gallon head.

I *love* SIGs. It's Glocks I hate.
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Re: Unmarked crosswalks
Posted by: modelamac
Date: February 11, 2015 06:10AM
I'm missing the point of this picture.



Remember how when you were little
you could just rip off your diaper and
just run around naked and everyone
thought it was so cute and funny?


Anyway, I need bail money.
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Re: Unmarked crosswalks
Posted by: Speedy
Date: February 11, 2015 06:11AM
Every intersection is a crosswalk, marked or unmarked. Excludes alleys. Includes 'T' intersections. In Minnesota, when a pedestrian steps off the curb (either side of the road) and into the roadway, you must stop. The rule has variations depending on whether there is a median, etc. When in doubt, I stop.

There are different laws in the countryside where side roads/intersections can be miles apart.



Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/11/2015 06:16AM by Speedy.
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Re: Unmarked crosswalks
Posted by: billb
Date: February 11, 2015 06:29AM
Every state is different.
Some states require stopping, some yielding and for some there is no such thing as an "unmarked crosswalk".

50 state summary:
[www.ncsl.org]



The Phorum Wall keeps us safe from illegal characters and words
The doorstep to the temple of wisdom is the knowledge of one's own ignorance. -Benjamin Franklin
BOYCOTT YOPLAIT [www.noyoplait.com]
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Re: Unmarked crosswalks
Posted by: Todd's keyboard
Date: February 11, 2015 06:36AM
Spoiler alert below.













Apparently half of the people don't see the gorilla. If someone is not expecting to see a pedestrian (or bicycle, or motorcycle), that person may well be looking right at the walker or rider, and not see her/him.

[theinvisiblegorilla.com]
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Re: Unmarked crosswalks
Posted by: deckeda
Date: February 11, 2015 06:39AM
Wow, what a needlessly confusing mishmash of state laws. I wonder what conformity would do for pedestrian safety?
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Re: Unmarked crosswalks
Posted by: Lux Interior
Date: February 11, 2015 06:45AM
In Switzerland, if a pedestrian even glanced sideways at the road, cars would stop. I never got used to it the 3 months I lived there. I always would wait until the traffic cleared to cross a street. Mainly because American drivers would mow you down, then back up and run over you again because they didn't know what the bump was the first time they hit you.

I was told that Swiss citizens would get hit by cars when they went to Germany because they expected the German drivers to behave like the Swiss drivers. Just an anecdote. I have no idea if it was true.
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Re: Unmarked crosswalks
Posted by: DP
Date: February 11, 2015 07:16AM
prolongation

Probably 99.9% don't even begin to know what this means. Doesn't help matters at all.
When I used to travel to CA on business, I learned real quick to stop for peds just because. They walked out from every conceivable opening, and if they thought I wasn't stopping for them, I got a look or a finger... Better to stop and if the ditship hits you from behind you just got rich!
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Unmarked stop signs
Posted by: gabester
Date: February 11, 2015 07:29AM
I just wish I would not get rear-ended when I suddenly stop at all those unexpected unmarked stop signs!
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Re: Unmarked crosswalks
Posted by: bazookaman
Date: February 11, 2015 07:37AM
Quote
Mike Johnson
He was so certain he was in the right that he threatened to report me to the DMV for not knowing how to drive.

C'mon. Who would voluntarily do ANYTHING with the DMV???




__________________________________
There’s a guy wearing overalls with no shirt.
Which I think we all know is the International uniform for the last guy you’ll ever see.
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Re: Unmarked stop signs
Posted by: billb
Date: February 11, 2015 08:14AM
Quote
gabester
I just wish I would not get rear-ended when I suddenly stop at all those unexpected unmarked stop signs!

That's opportunity knocking !!
Make money off of tailgaters !!

[www.confused.com]



The Phorum Wall keeps us safe from illegal characters and words
The doorstep to the temple of wisdom is the knowledge of one's own ignorance. -Benjamin Franklin
BOYCOTT YOPLAIT [www.noyoplait.com]
[soundcloud.com]
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Re: Unmarked crosswalks
Posted by: cbelt3
Date: February 11, 2015 08:20AM
Yet Another Motorist who is under the mistaken assumption that "Right of Way" is a thing. In most states (like Ohio) the law specifically states that there is sort of no such thing.

Short answer ? The honker was of the personal orifice cleansing bag variety. Ignore such folk. You've done well.

[www.ncsl.org]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/11/2015 08:21AM by cbelt3.
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Re: Unmarked crosswalks
Posted by: DRR
Date: February 11, 2015 08:24AM
Pedestrians - do not ever depend on the law, or the ability of drivers to follow the law, to protect yourself.

My wife grew up in CA where stopping for pedestrians is the norm. I grew up in NY where, well, the opposite is often true.

One time we were in Manhattan and she started crossing when the light indicated. A cab was trying to turn (late) at the same time.

"I have the right of way!" she protested.

"I'll put that on your tombstone," I replied.
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Re: Unmarked crosswalks
Posted by: mrbigstuff
Date: February 11, 2015 08:43AM
No such thing as unmarked crosswalk around here. Someone was killed near me a couple years back, crossing the roadway along a random piece of road, and the driver was not charged with anything, the pedestrian was in the wrong place to cross the road.

As someone who is disgusted and infuriated by drivers' lack of awareness (and frequently vocalizes it as a pedestrian), there has to be some standardization for both vehicles and pedestrians, otherwise both are at high risk at all times.
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Re: Unmarked crosswalks
Posted by: Jack D.
Date: February 11, 2015 08:44AM
Quote
deckeda
Wow, what a needlessly confusing mishmash of state laws. I wonder what conformity would do for pedestrian safety?

Here in MA the ped always has the right of way and you must stop. So regardless of where they decide to cross I keep to that one simple rule and let them go.

However, I do not like the people that just walk out in front of moving vehicles and expect them to stop on NO notice! We (drivers) should be allowed a "free" tap on these people just so they wise up. Just the other day I had a woman who I truly did not see walk in front of my truck and glare at me as if I should have known she would pop into the street at that moment and want to cross. These are the people who will end up in a hospital or worse someday.



- Jack D.




New tasteless sig coming soon!
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Re: Unmarked crosswalks
Posted by: DP
Date: February 11, 2015 08:50AM
"I have the right of way!" she protested.

"I'll put that on your tombstone," I replied.


Amen!
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Re: Unmarked crosswalks
Posted by: Mr Downtown
Date: February 11, 2015 08:59AM
An old friend who lived in your part of Ventura (the ex-wife of Mayor Fulton, in fact) was once ticketed for proceeding before the pedestrian had completed his journey and stepped onto the opposite curb.
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Re: Unmarked crosswalks
Posted by: rz
Date: February 11, 2015 09:48AM
they've been cracking down on it here. Near where I work there's a road that transitions from residential up to a large retail area (like an outdoor mall). They will have a cop, dressed in an orange vest who will occasionally step out into the road to see if oncoming traffic will stop. There's a patrol car right around the corner. It's like shooting fish in a barrel... every time I go by there and they're running this sting, there's always someone pulled over for failing to stop.
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Re: Unmarked crosswalks
Posted by: mrlynn
Date: February 11, 2015 10:13AM
Quote
Jack D.
Quote
deckeda
Wow, what a needlessly confusing mishmash of state laws. I wonder what conformity would do for pedestrian safety?

Here in MA the ped always has the right of way and you must stop. So regardless of where they decide to cross I keep to that one simple rule and let them go. . .

Jack, according to the list that billb linked to, in MA:

Quote

Pedestrians crossing a roadway in an urban area outside of a marked crosswalk must yield the right-of-way to all vehicles upon the roadway. . .

it's called 'jaywalking', and it's illegal (but not enforced). Now what's an 'urban area'? Beats me.

Towns around here are making more of an effort to prominently mark crosswalks. I had never heard of "an unmarked crosswalk" before this thread.

/Mr Lynn
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Re: Unmarked crosswalks
Posted by: billb
Date: February 11, 2015 10:22AM
Quote
Jack D.
Quote
deckeda
Wow, what a needlessly confusing mishmash of state laws. I wonder what conformity would do for pedestrian safety?

Here in MA the ped always has the right of way and you must stop. So regardless of where they decide to cross I keep to that one simple rule and let them go.

However, I do not like the people that just walk out in front of moving vehicles and expect them to stop on NO notice! We (drivers) should be allowed a "free" tap on these people just so they wise up. Just the other day I had a woman who I truly did not see walk in front of my truck and glare at me as if I should have known she would pop into the street at that moment and want to cross. These are the people who will end up in a hospital or worse someday.

That's not quite an absolute in Ma as Ma state law allows communities to enforce jaywalking rules which can prohibit pedestrians from both being in streets and crossing outside of crosswalks when crosswalks and crosswalk controls are available.

It's still best to yield as human bones can leave dents .



The Phorum Wall keeps us safe from illegal characters and words
The doorstep to the temple of wisdom is the knowledge of one's own ignorance. -Benjamin Franklin
BOYCOTT YOPLAIT [www.noyoplait.com]
[soundcloud.com]
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Re: Unmarked crosswalks
Posted by: graylocks
Date: February 11, 2015 12:17PM
Quote
Lux Interior
In Switzerland, if a pedestrian even glanced sideways at the road, cars would stop. I never got used to it the 3 months I lived there. I always would wait until the traffic cleared to cross a street. Mainly because American drivers would mow you down, then back up and run over you again because they didn't know what the bump was the first time they hit you.

when i was a tween my mom took me to Hawaii. this NYC raised kid, where pedestrians are roadkill, was amazed that drivers in hawaii stopped as soon as your foot left the curb. such awesome power! as we toured honolulu i crossed streets randomly. after awhile mom no longer thought it was cute.



"Success isn't about how much money you make. It is about the difference you make in people's lives."--Michelle Obama
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Re: Unmarked crosswalks
Posted by: N-OS X-tasy!
Date: February 11, 2015 12:28PM
Quote
billb
Quote
Jack D.
Quote
deckeda
Wow, what a needlessly confusing mishmash of state laws. I wonder what conformity would do for pedestrian safety?

Here in MA the ped always has the right of way and you must stop. So regardless of where they decide to cross I keep to that one simple rule and let them go.

However, I do not like the people that just walk out in front of moving vehicles and expect them to stop on NO notice! We (drivers) should be allowed a "free" tap on these people just so they wise up. Just the other day I had a woman who I truly did not see walk in front of my truck and glare at me as if I should have known she would pop into the street at that moment and want to cross. These are the people who will end up in a hospital or worse someday.

That's not quite an absolute in Ma as Ma state law allows communities to enforce jaywalking rules which can prohibit pedestrians from both being in streets and crossing outside of crosswalks when crosswalks and crosswalk controls are available.

It's still best to yield as human bones can leave dents .

Our law here in CA is pretty much the same: pedestrians only have the right-of-way at crosswalks (marked and unmarked). CA cops DO issue citations for jaywalking (just not nearly often enough).

Based on a number of newspaper articles I've read over the years, drivers involved in accidents where they struck a jaywalking pedestrian generally are not cited, except in cases where extenuating circumstances are involved (driver was under the influence of alcohol/drugs, for instance).



It is what it is.
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Re: Unmarked crosswalks
Posted by: Lux Interior
Date: February 11, 2015 01:16PM
Quote
graylocks
Quote
Lux Interior
In Switzerland, if a pedestrian even glanced sideways at the road, cars would stop. I never got used to it the 3 months I lived there. I always would wait until the traffic cleared to cross a street. Mainly because American drivers would mow you down, then back up and run over you again because they didn't know what the bump was the first time they hit you.

when i was a tween my mom took me to Hawaii. this NYC raised kid, where pedestrians are roadkill, was amazed that drivers in hawaii stopped as soon as your foot left the curb. such awesome power! as we toured honolulu i crossed streets randomly. after awhile mom no longer thought it was cute.

When I lived in HI, I found that most drivers couldn't get their cars going fast enough to run down a pedestrian anyway. winking smiley

You're lucky you didn't get hit by a tourist. But most of them are stuck behind locals.
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Re: Unmarked crosswalks
Posted by: N-OS X-tasy!
Date: February 11, 2015 02:29PM
Quote
Lux Interior
You're lucky you didn't get hit by a tourist. But most of them are stuck behind locals.

THIS. So much this.



It is what it is.
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Re: Unmarked crosswalks
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: February 11, 2015 03:53PM
prolongation

Probably 99.9% don't even begin to know what this means. Doesn't help matters at all.


Sure it does, if you've got a good vocabulary.

And a dictionary does, if you don't. 99.9% typically rely on the Drivers Handbook or formal drivers training. I posted the CVC section here to avoid the "I think my state does… or doesn't…" ambiguity. And as in most states, ignorance of the law, yadda yadda.


I had never heard of "an unmarked crosswalk" before this thread.

Do you know whether or not your state has them? You should.


Yet Another Motorist who is under the mistaken assumption that "Right of Way" is a thing.

It is a thing. It's just not an inalienable thing, and must be yielded in when it's a matter of safety.

Traffic laws in general are based on the concept of right of way, even if not specifically stated. There's no getting around that. People just don't understand that there are times when it must be yielded. I'd like to see an example of a state's vehicle code stating that right of way does not exist.


Our law here in CA is pretty much the same: pedestrians only have the right-of-way at crosswalks (marked and unmarked). CA cops DO issue citations for jaywalking (just not nearly often enough).

Right. Motorists are still required to yield their right of way to pedestrians jaywalking, the concept being just because they don't have the right of way doesn't mean you get to mow them down. The difference is assigning responsibility.

In CA, jaywalking refers to a pedestrian crossing the street outside of a marked or unmarked crosswalk, as in between to traffic controlled intersections.


When I lived in HI, I found that most drivers couldn't get their cars going fast enough to run down a pedestrian anyway.

Ain't that the truth!

Many years ago, when I was in HI, I was told their VC allowed for right turns on a STOP sign without stopping if it was safe to do so.

Translated it meant pedestrians better stay the hell outta the way, brah! Now, I don't know how they treated fellow Hawaiians but if you looked like a Haole, you were fair game. It only took one time to make me a believer.




When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

Everybody matters or nobody matters.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men except
by believing all possible evil of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

-An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

Mister, that's a ten-gallon hat on a twenty-gallon head.

I *love* SIGs. It's Glocks I hate.
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Re: Unmarked crosswalks
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: February 11, 2015 04:08PM
I wonder what conformity would do for pedestrian safety?

Probably nothing.

It's a method of establishing culpability and financial responsibility.

Some drivers will always be on the lookout for pedestrians and stop for them. Some pedestrians will likewise be on the lookout for traffic and only cross when and where safe and legal. Right of way will not be either party's concern, just safety. Others won't care.

Bunny trail: many foreigners crossing in UK crosswalks get picked off by looking in only one (the wrong) direction.




When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

Everybody matters or nobody matters.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men except
by believing all possible evil of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

-An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

Mister, that's a ten-gallon hat on a twenty-gallon head.

I *love* SIGs. It's Glocks I hate.
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Re: Unmarked crosswalks
Posted by: mrbigstuff
Date: February 11, 2015 06:52PM
One giveaway looking at the photo posted for a second time, is that a crosswalk would not traverse a double yellow divider. And, if it is to be mid-block, I believe it would have to be marked. Some municipalities will not install any crosswalk mid-block unless it is also signalized, but that varies by region.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/11/2015 06:53PM by mrbigstuff.
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Re: Unmarked crosswalks
Posted by: Speedy
Date: February 12, 2015 06:01AM
Quote
mrbigstuff
One giveaway looking at the photo posted for a second time, is that a crosswalk would not traverse a double yellow divider.

Just a sloppy paint job. It's a crosswalk because of the curb cut at the intersection.



Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.
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Re: Unmarked crosswalks
Posted by: mrbigstuff
Date: February 12, 2015 07:54AM
Quote
Speedy
Quote
mrbigstuff
One giveaway looking at the photo posted for a second time, is that a crosswalk would not traverse a double yellow divider.

Just a sloppy paint job. It's a crosswalk because of the curb cut at the intersection.

I believe the OP, but that would not be an intersection around these parts. In fact, the curb ramp (complete with ADA detectable warning strip) must be installed with a complementary opposite, which is not present. Otherwise, it's a really bad mistake on the part of someone laying out the road.
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Re: Unmarked crosswalks
Posted by: Speedy
Date: February 12, 2015 08:04AM
Quote
mrbigstuff
Quote
Speedy
Quote
mrbigstuff
One giveaway looking at the photo posted for a second time, is that a crosswalk would not traverse a double yellow divider.

Just a sloppy paint job. It's a crosswalk because of the curb cut at the intersection.

I believe the OP, but that would not be an intersection around these parts. In fact, the curb ramp (complete with ADA detectable warning strip) must be installed with a complementary opposite, which is not present. Otherwise, it's a really bad mistake on the part of someone laying out the road.

I imagine the driveway serves in place of the curb ramp. That would be an intersection here. It only takes two streets meeting to make an intersection.



Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.
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Re: Unmarked crosswalks
Posted by: DRR
Date: February 12, 2015 08:29AM
Why don't they just indicate all crosswalks with paint? Why put additional onus on the driver to determine if it's an "unmarked crosswalk" and mentally run down the list of criteria for an "unmarked crosswalk?"

If there's painted lines, you stop when there's a person there. If there's no painted lines, it would be jaywalking. Why complicate the issue further with invisible crosswalks.
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Re: Unmarked crosswalks
Posted by: mrbigstuff
Date: February 12, 2015 08:29AM
One would NEVER design a crosswalk to end in a driveway. I think they would teach that on the first day of pedestrian design class.
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Re: Unmarked crosswalks
Posted by: DRR
Date: February 12, 2015 08:37AM
As a followup to my question, the opposite is also true - why paint some crosswalks and not others? It makes it difficult for drivers to determine when there is one, and when there isn't. How about we simply remove all painted crosswalks and just rely on the legislation to keep pedestrians safe?

That's sarcasm, obviously, intended to point out the folly of having an inconsistent system where "unmarked crosswalks" are a thing.

"Most intersections have a pedestrian crosswalk whether or not lines are painted on the street."
"Most crosswalks are located at corners, but they can also be located in the middle of the block. "

Uh, yeah, could you be any more vague than that? And why does it specify "most" and then fail to specify the criteria?
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Re: Unmarked crosswalks
Posted by: DRR
Date: February 12, 2015 08:38AM
Quote
mrbigstuff
One would NEVER design a crosswalk to end in a driveway. I think they would teach that on the first day of pedestrian design class.

I do not live in CA nor am I an expert in its ped laws but I think most people, Californians included, would be shocked to learn that is an "unmarked crosswalk."
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Re: Unmarked crosswalks
Posted by: Speedy
Date: February 12, 2015 09:08AM
If there is a public road intersection (excepting alleys), there is a crosswalk unless indicated otherwise.



Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.
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Re: Unmarked crosswalks
Posted by: N-OS X-tasy!
Date: February 12, 2015 12:21PM
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Speedy
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mrbigstuff
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Speedy
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mrbigstuff
One giveaway looking at the photo posted for a second time, is that a crosswalk would not traverse a double yellow divider.

Just a sloppy paint job. It's a crosswalk because of the curb cut at the intersection.

I believe the OP, but that would not be an intersection around these parts. In fact, the curb ramp (complete with ADA detectable warning strip) must be installed with a complementary opposite, which is not present. Otherwise, it's a really bad mistake on the part of someone laying out the road.

I imagine the driveway serves in place of the curb ramp. That would be an intersection here. It only takes two streets meeting to make an intersection.

Where in the hell would that not be an intersection?



It is what it is.
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Re: Unmarked crosswalks
Posted by: N-OS X-tasy!
Date: February 12, 2015 12:26PM
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DRR
As a followup to my question, the opposite is also true - why paint some crosswalks and not others? It makes it difficult for drivers to determine when there is one, and when there isn't. How about we simply remove all painted crosswalks and just rely on the legislation to keep pedestrians safe?

That's sarcasm, obviously, intended to point out the folly of having an inconsistent system where "unmarked crosswalks" are a thing.

"Most intersections have a pedestrian crosswalk whether or not lines are painted on the street."
"Most crosswalks are located at corners, but they can also be located in the middle of the block. "

Uh, yeah, could you be any more vague than that? And why does it specify "most" and then fail to specify the criteria?

Unmarked crosswalks only exist at intersections. Mid-block crosswalks are always marked.

Basically, every intersection has crosswalks, whether marked or not.

It ain't that hard.



It is what it is.
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Re: Unmarked crosswalks
Posted by: N-OS X-tasy!
Date: February 12, 2015 12:45PM
Here are the actual CVC sections regarding crosswalks pertinent to this discussion:

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21950. (a) The driver of a vehicle shall yield the right-of-way to
a pedestrian crossing the roadway within any marked crosswalk or
within any unmarked crosswalk at an intersection, except as otherwise
provided in this chapter.

(b) This section does not relieve a pedestrian from the duty of
using due care for his or her safety. No pedestrian may suddenly
leave a curb or other place of safety and walk or run into the path
of a vehicle that is so close as to constitute an immediate hazard.
No pedestrian may unnecessarily stop or delay traffic while in a
marked or unmarked crosswalk.

(c) The driver of a vehicle approaching a pedestrian within any
marked or unmarked crosswalk shall exercise all due care and shall
reduce the speed of the vehicle or take any other action relating to
the operation of the vehicle as necessary to safeguard the safety of
the pedestrian.

(d) Subdivision (b) does not relieve a driver of a vehicle from
the duty of exercising due care for the safety of any pedestrian
within any marked crosswalk or within any unmarked crosswalk at an
intersection.

...

21954. (a) Every pedestrian upon a roadway at any point other than
within a marked crosswalk or within an unmarked crosswalk at an
intersection shall yield the right-of-way to all vehicles upon the roadway
so near as to constitute an immediate hazard.

(b) The provisions of this section shall not relieve the driver of a vehicle
from the duty to exercise due care for the safety of any pedestrian upon a roadway.

21955. Between adjacent intersections controlled by traffic control
signal devices or by police officers, pedestrians shall not cross
the roadway at any place except in a crosswalk.

An interesting observation: Only pedestrians within a crosswalk have the right-of-way. The logic here is that once the pedestrian is within the crosswalk, traffic must cede right-of-way to ensure the safety of the pedestrian, but until the pedestrian has entered the crosswalk it is much easier for the pedestrian to stop than for the vehicle to stop.

Too many pedestrians believe that just approaching a crosswalks gives them the right-of-way.

And don't get me started on those @#$%& idiots who walk down the middle of the row in a parking lot like it's a @#$%& sidewalk.



It is what it is.
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Re: Unmarked crosswalks
Posted by: mrlynn
Date: February 12, 2015 01:24PM
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N-OS X-tasy!
And don't get me started on those @#$%& idiots who walk down the middle of the row in a parking lot like it's a @#$%& sidewalk.

Too many parking lots leave pedestrians little choice. All lots should be designed with walkways between rows of cars, but very few are.

/Mr Lynn
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Re: Unmarked crosswalks
Posted by: N-OS X-tasy!
Date: February 12, 2015 01:52PM
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mrlynn
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N-OS X-tasy!
And don't get me started on those @#$%& idiots who walk down the middle of the row in a parking lot like it's a @#$%& sidewalk.

Too many parking lots leave pedestrians little choice. All lots should be designed with walkways between rows of cars, but very few are.

/Mr Lynn

Pedestrians walking alongside parked cars on one side of the aisle would at least give drivers the ability to keep to the other side of the aisle - win-win for everyone.

Pedestrians walking right down the middle of the aisle are just being @#$%&.



It is what it is.
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Re: Unmarked crosswalks
Posted by: DRR
Date: February 12, 2015 11:47PM
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N-OS X-tasy!

Unmarked crosswalks only exist at intersections. Mid-block crosswalks are always marked.

Basically, every intersection has crosswalks, whether marked or not.

It ain't that hard.

It ain't that hard if it's as simple as you say, but it's not.

Imagine you're driving on a four lane road (two each direction) and you see someone trying to cross at an intersection. Do you stop?

Now what if I told you that intersection had a "no crossing" sign which would presumably only be visible to the pedestrian? You'd be stopping where not necessary, and in fact, in a place that is probably not safe, for the ped and for the drivers. (Hence the "no crossing" sign). In this case the pedestrian is in the wrong and is causing the unsafe situation, however you're saying the onus is on the driver to know when there is an "unmarked crosswalk" and when there isn't. That to me is ridiculous. If it was as simple as "all intersections are crosswalks," then no, it ain't hard. But in my example above I've just proven otherwise.

An "unmarked crosswalk" is as confusing as an "unmarked stop sign" would be. If you expect drivers to stop, you have to put something - a light, a stop sign, a painted word, a simple stripe that's perpendicular to direction of traffic - there has to be something that indicates a stop. The mere presence of a pedestrian looking to cross is not enough.
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