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I KNEW there was a reason to drink soda sparingly...
Posted by: Lizabeth
Date: April 21, 2017 07:50AM
In WP today:[www.washingtonpost.com]

"Americans trying to stay healthy have abandoned sugary drinks for diet drinks in droves over the past few decades on the theory that the latter is better than the former. Now, more evidence has emerged to refute that rationale.

Indeed, a new study shows an association between diet soda and both stroke and dementia, with people drinking diet soda daily being almost three times as likely to develop stroke and dementia as those who consumed it weekly or less.

“This included a higher risk of ischemic stroke, where blood vessels in the brain become obstructed and Alzheimer’s disease dementia, the most common form of dementia,” said Matthew Pase, a Boston University School of Medicine neurologist and the lead author of the study published in the journal Stroke.

While emphasizing that the research did not show causation, only a correlation, Pase said in a video explaining the study that diet drinks “might not be a healthy alternative.”
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Re: I KNEW there was a reason to drink soda sparingly...
Posted by: Speedy
Date: April 21, 2017 07:55AM
Quote
Lizabeth
a new study shows an association between diet soda and both stroke and dementia, with people drinking diet soda daily being almost three times as likely to develop stroke and dementia as those who consumed it weekly or less.

And how does that compare to sugary drinks consumed at the same rates?



Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.
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Re: I KNEW there was a reason to drink soda sparingly...
Posted by: Acer
Date: April 21, 2017 07:55AM
I always figured that something that tasted as bad as diet soda could not be good for you.
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Re: I KNEW there was a reason to drink soda sparingly...
Posted by: NewtonMP2100
Date: April 21, 2017 08:00AM
....DIE....t......right there in the name....



____________________________________________________

I reject your reality and substitute my own!
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Re: I KNEW there was a reason to drink soda sparingly...
Posted by: space-time
Date: April 21, 2017 08:20AM
Quote
NewtonMP2100
....DIE....t......right there in the name....

LOL
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Re: I KNEW there was a reason to drink soda sparingly...
Posted by: billb
Date: April 21, 2017 08:30AM
I like ice in my water.



The Phorum Wall keeps us safe from illegal characters and words
The doorstep to the temple of wisdom is the knowledge of one's own ignorance. -Benjamin Franklin
BOYCOTT YOPLAIT [www.noyoplait.com]
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Re: I KNEW there was a reason to drink soda sparingly...
Posted by: Acer
Date: April 21, 2017 09:00AM
Quote
billb
I like ice in my water.

Enjoy your lead!
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Re: I KNEW there was a reason to drink soda sparingly...
Posted by: billb
Date: April 21, 2017 09:10AM
Quote
Acer
Quote
billb
I like ice in my water.

Enjoy your lead!

well water
fortified with iron



The Phorum Wall keeps us safe from illegal characters and words
The doorstep to the temple of wisdom is the knowledge of one's own ignorance. -Benjamin Franklin
BOYCOTT YOPLAIT [www.noyoplait.com]
[soundcloud.com]
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Re: I KNEW there was a reason to drink soda sparingly...
Posted by: jdc
Date: April 21, 2017 09:23AM
I dont know a single person that drinks diet soda thinking its a way to stay "healthy".

And the part about regualr soda:

And they should most definitely not retreat to sugary drinks, he said. They have been associated not only with obesity and its consequences, such as diabetes, but with poorer memory and smaller overall brain volumes.

And of course, a single data point study like this is pretty slim.



----


Edited 999 time(s). Last edit at 12:08PM by jdc.
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Re: I KNEW there was a reason to drink soda sparingly...
Posted by: Acer
Date: April 21, 2017 09:33AM
Quote
billb
Quote
Acer
Quote
billb
I like ice in my water.

Enjoy your lead!

well water
fortified with iron
[water.usgs.gov]
stick poke smiley
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Re: I KNEW there was a reason to drink soda sparingly...
Posted by: Sam3
Date: April 21, 2017 09:39AM
Is it diet sodas, or diet anything? In other words, is the cause the sweetener, the carbonation, or the combination of both? Is the same effect noticed with diet green tea, 0-calorie Gatorade, Glaceau Vitaminwater, etc.?
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Re: I KNEW there was a reason to drink soda sparingly...
Posted by: billb
Date: April 21, 2017 09:40AM
Quote
Acer
Quote
billb
Quote
Acer
Quote
billb
I like ice in my water.

Enjoy your lead!

well water
fortified with iron
[water.usgs.gov]
stick poke smiley

So, the same source as soda.


and; not an agricultural area since mid-1800s. kinda predates heavy pesticide use.



The Phorum Wall keeps us safe from illegal characters and words
The doorstep to the temple of wisdom is the knowledge of one's own ignorance. -Benjamin Franklin
BOYCOTT YOPLAIT [www.noyoplait.com]
[soundcloud.com]




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/21/2017 09:47AM by billb.
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Re: I KNEW there was a reason to drink soda sparingly...
Posted by: sekker
Date: April 21, 2017 09:41AM
Wow - what a scientifically poor summary.

I'd bet a lot of $$ that the people using diet soda are also already far more likely overweight. They drink the diet soda to reduce caloric intake. Overweight people have all of the listed health issues.

This correlation is thus in no way causality.

Would I recommend people drink soda or any sort? No. Water is likely best.

Can you drink too much diet soda ? Yes. I drink too much.

But it's far better than sugary sweet soda that I used to drink - fewer calories and do not rot my teeth as much (one issue with sugary soda) thanks to less sugar.
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Re: I KNEW there was a reason to drink soda sparingly...
Posted by: rgG
Date: April 21, 2017 09:49AM
As I asked my husband last night when I saw this on the news, is it the sweetener and if so which sweetener? There are many different ways to get a drink sweet without sugar so are they al, the same?
Also, as others have said, is it just soda or all diet drinks?
What about artificial sweeteners in stuff other than drinks?
Also if no causality then what does this really mean?
How did they get the info and when? Are we relying on people's memory of what they did or what?
I really hate these scare tactic news stories.





Roswell, GA (Atlanta suburb)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/21/2017 09:50AM by rgG.
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Re: I KNEW there was a reason to drink soda sparingly...
Posted by: Lux Interior
Date: April 21, 2017 09:55AM
Quote
sekker
This correlation is thus in no way causality.

Yep. Right in the OP.

Quote
Lizabeth
While emphasizing that the research did not show causation, only a correlation [...]
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Re: I KNEW there was a reason to drink soda sparingly...
Posted by: Zoidberg
Date: April 21, 2017 09:56AM
I always saw a correlation between the rise of obesity in this country to when High Fructose Corn Syrup became a replacement *for* sugar. It was bad enough when HFCS took over in drinks, but then it was everywhere -- because it was so cheap, so much cheaper than sugar, it became a replacement for sugar in absolutely everything sold.

I remember reading a science magazine back in the 90s where they talked about how, when sugar got replaced with HFCS, it triggered something in the body re/the consumption of calories, basically telling the body it needed to "hoard" them. I forget the exact wording.

When people say "sugary drinks", "sugary treats"; in a lot of cases, I defy you to find any actual cane sugar in them.







Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/21/2017 09:57AM by Zoidberg.
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Re: I KNEW there was a reason to drink soda sparingly...
Posted by: sekker
Date: April 21, 2017 09:57AM
Quote
Lux Interior
Quote
sekker
This correlation is thus in no way causality.

Yep. Right in the OP.

Quote
Lizabeth
While emphasizing that the research did not show causation, only a correlation [...]

But the title of this thread does not start with this inherent limitation. It's a misleading headline.
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Re: I KNEW there was a reason to drink soda sparingly...
Posted by: testcase
Date: April 21, 2017 09:58AM
Quote
billb
I like ice in my water.


And a squeeze of lime juice. yum smiley
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Re: I KNEW there was a reason to drink soda sparingly...
Posted by: freeradical
Date: April 21, 2017 10:37AM
Jeff Bezos "journalism"
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Re: I KNEW there was a reason to drink soda sparingly...
Posted by: Grateful11
Date: April 21, 2017 10:59AM
Quote
Acer
I always figured that something that tasted as bad as diet soda could not be good for you.

A guy on CBS Evening News said he drank diet drinks because they tasted better, he must've been high.



Grateful11
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Re: I KNEW there was a reason to drink soda sparingly...
Posted by: freeradical
Date: April 21, 2017 11:03AM
Quote
Grateful11
Quote
Acer
I always figured that something that tasted as bad as diet soda could not be good for you.

A guy on CBS Evening News said he drank diet drinks because they tasted better, he must've been high.

I agree.

I gave up on sugary soda literally decades ago. I tried diet soda, but they always had a nasty aftertaste. So I asked myself, why should I pay for something that tastes awful? I switched to water then.
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Re: I KNEW there was a reason to drink soda sparingly...
Posted by: Steve G.
Date: April 21, 2017 11:10AM
From the study itself- [stroke.ahajournals.org]

Background and Purpose—Sugar- and artificially-sweetened beverage intake have been linked to cardiometabolic risk factors, which increase the risk of cerebrovascular disease and dementia. We examined whether sugar- or artificially sweetened beverage consumption was associated with the prospective risks of incident stroke or dementia in the community-based Framingham Heart Study Offspring cohort.

Methods—We studied 2888 participants aged >45 years for incident stroke (mean age 62 [SD, 9] years; 45% men) and 1484 participants aged >60 years for incident dementia (mean age 69 [SD, 6] years; 46% men). Beverage intake was quantified using a food-frequency questionnaire at cohort examinations 5 (1991–1995), 6 (1995–1998), and 7 (1998–2001). We quantified recent consumption at examination 7 and cumulative consumption by averaging across examinations. Surveillance for incident events commenced at examination 7 and continued for 10 years. We observed 97 cases of incident stroke (82 ischemic) and 81 cases of incident dementia (63 consistent with Alzheimer’s disease).

Results—After adjustments for age, sex, education (for analysis of dementia), caloric intake, diet quality, physical activity, and smoking, higher recent and higher cumulative intake of artificially sweetened soft drinks were associated with an increased risk of ischemic stroke, all-cause dementia, and Alzheimer’s disease dementia. When comparing daily cumulative intake to 0 per week (reference), the hazard ratios were 2.96 (95% confidence interval, 1.26–6.97) for ischemic stroke and 2.89 (95% confidence interval, 1.18–7.07) for Alzheimer’s disease. Sugar-sweetened beverages were not associated with stroke or dementia.

Conclusions—Artificially sweetened soft drink consumption was associated with a higher risk of stroke and dementia.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/21/2017 11:11AM by Steve G..
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Re: I KNEW there was a reason to drink soda sparingly...
Posted by: Lew Zealand
Date: April 21, 2017 12:30PM
The data looks OK with the exception that this could be a case of p-hacking. If they looked at 20 different outcomes and use the standard p-value of 0.05, then you would assume that on average 1 out of 20 (0.05 out of 1.00) random events will appear as if it is correlated. This is merely statistics. They may not have mentioned the other n=~19 things they tested which did not correlate, and then again they may just have tested the things mentioned in the article. Hard to know how this experiment started.

However, using a p-value of 0.05 is useful for one thing only. It does not determine causation, even though researchers imply that it does nowadays. It merely establishes that reasonable correlation exists, which means that more rigorous tests need to be done to determine with certainty that there is causation. Also scientific certainty requires replication from independent labs in order to remove any unintentional or intentional bias from the original lab doing the work.
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Re: I KNEW there was a reason to drink soda sparingly...
Posted by: sekker
Date: April 21, 2017 12:45PM
Quote
Lew Zealand
The data looks OK with the exception that this could be a case of p-hacking. If they looked at 20 different outcomes and use the standard p-value of 0.05, then you would assume that on average 1 out of 20 (0.05 out of 1.00) random events will appear as if it is correlated. This is merely statistics. They may not have mentioned the other n=~19 things they tested which did not correlate, and then again they may just have tested the things mentioned in the article. Hard to know how this experiment started.

However, using a p-value of 0.05 is useful for one thing only. It does not determine causation, even though researchers imply that it does nowadays. It merely establishes that reasonable correlation exists, which means that more rigorous tests need to be done to determine with certainty that there is causation. Also scientific certainty requires replication from independent labs in order to remove any unintentional or intentional bias from the original lab doing the work.

Exactly. And how many related studies have looked at this and seen nothing, but that didn't get reported in the literature because it wouldn't have lead to press releases? The low funding rates lead to scientists looking for such outcomes to justify their labs. Instead, we need a set of labs who will be funded to report all outcomes.
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Re: I KNEW there was a reason to drink soda sparingly...
Posted by: sekker
Date: April 21, 2017 12:48PM
Again, my comments are not meant to be support for drinking diet soda. Just frustration with this kind of science reporting.
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Re: I KNEW there was a reason to drink soda sparingly...
Posted by: Lew Zealand
Date: April 21, 2017 01:23PM
Quote
sekker
Quote
Lew Zealand
The data looks OK with the exception that this could be a case of p-hacking. If they looked at 20 different outcomes and use the standard p-value of 0.05, then you would assume that on average 1 out of 20 (0.05 out of 1.00) random events will appear as if it is correlated. This is merely statistics. They may not have mentioned the other n=~19 things they tested which did not correlate, and then again they may just have tested the things mentioned in the article. Hard to know how this experiment started.

However, using a p-value of 0.05 is useful for one thing only. It does not determine causation, even though researchers imply that it does nowadays. It merely establishes that reasonable correlation exists, which means that more rigorous tests need to be done to determine with certainty that there is causation. Also scientific certainty requires replication from independent labs in order to remove any unintentional or intentional bias from the original lab doing the work.


Exactly. And how many related studies have looked at this and seen nothing, but that didn't get reported in the literature because it wouldn't have lead to press releases? The low funding rates lead to scientists looking for such outcomes to justify their labs. Instead, we need a set of labs who will be funded to report all outcomes.

Ugh, yes. The problem of negative or merely uninteresting results never getting published means that using published papers as a evidence for how often a particular thing being studied works or doesn't work is impossible.
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Re: I KNEW there was a reason to drink soda sparingly...
Posted by: vision63
Date: April 21, 2017 02:19PM
Quote
Sam3
Is it diet sodas, or diet anything? In other words, is the cause the sweetener, the carbonation, or the combination of both? Is the same effect noticed with diet green tea, 0-calorie Gatorade, Glaceau Vitaminwater, etc.?

That's another study.
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Re: I KNEW there was a reason to drink soda sparingly...
Posted by: Rick-o
Date: April 21, 2017 03:48PM
You guys sound like you don't want to miss the drooling years.



"After a time, you may find, that having is not so pleasing a thing after all, as wanting. It is not logical, but it is often true."

- Mr. Spock



“There is no greater calling than to serve your fellow men. There is no greater contribution than to help the weak. There is no greater satisfaction than to have done it well.”

- Walter Reuther
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Re: I KNEW there was a reason to drink soda sparingly...
Posted by: sekker
Date: April 21, 2017 05:07PM
Ok, I've had a chance to dig into this paper a bit.

There were 90+ comparisons examined.

A significant p value would need to be 0.0005.

When properly corrected, the stroke risk for those drinking diet soda is NOT different than the 'never-pop' group.

This is poor science paper.
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Re: I KNEW there was a reason to drink soda sparingly...
Posted by: Onamuji
Date: April 21, 2017 05:54PM
I can't stand diet sodas. They all taste like poison.

On my present diet and exercise program (down 20 pounds) I'm mostly drinking water and flavored zero-calorie seltzer.



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Re: I KNEW there was a reason to drink soda sparingly...
Posted by: vision63
Date: April 21, 2017 08:11PM
Quote
Onamuji
I can't stand diet sodas. They all taste like poison.

On my present diet and exercise program (down 20 pounds) I'm mostly drinking water and flavored zero-calorie seltzer.

That's cool.
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Re: I KNEW there was a reason to drink soda sparingly...
Posted by: sekker
Date: April 21, 2017 08:48PM
Quote
vision63
Quote
Onamuji
I can't stand diet sodas. They all taste like poison.

On my present diet and exercise program (down 20 pounds) I'm mostly drinking water and flavored zero-calorie seltzer.

That's cool.

Very! Keep up the hard work!
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Re: I KNEW there was a reason to drink soda sparingly...
Posted by: August West
Date: April 21, 2017 09:16PM
An association and a correlation are not the same thing.



Picasso in his studio after the liberation of Paris, taken by my friend and mentor.

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Re: I KNEW there was a reason to drink soda sparingly...
Posted by: Speedy
Date: April 22, 2017 06:20AM
Quote
Onamuji
On my present diet and exercise program (down 20 pounds) I'm mostly drinking water and flavored zero-calorie seltzer.

Congrats. That is a hefty weight loss!



Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.
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Re: I KNEW there was a reason to drink soda sparingly...
Posted by: Bill in NC
Date: April 23, 2017 08:28PM
ditto.

loving the flavored seltzer

down 1/3 so far of my goal

Quote
Onamuji
I can't stand diet sodas. They all taste like poison.

On my present diet and exercise program (down 20 pounds) I'm mostly drinking water and flavored zero-calorie seltzer.
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