advertisement
Forums

The Forum is sponsored by 
 

AAPL stock: Click Here

You are currently viewing the Tips and Deals forum
The unaccounted reason that caused crash that killed actor Paul Walker was tire expiration?
Posted by: pRICE cUBE
Date: May 26, 2017 03:48PM
In all my years of driving, I have not heard about tires essentially expiring. Any opinions on this concept laid out below?


TLDR: Tires can lose their functionality due to age and environmental conditions despite having good amounts of tread and low miles on them.

[www.thedrive.com]

Nevertheless, the four small patches of rubber connecting your two-ton manslaughter machine to your city’s lowest-priced asphalt are, if you ask me, the best way to improve your car, or, the quickest way to f--- it up, crash, and even die. Even if you should know better. And I’m going to give you one piece of advice—advice I learned the hard way, but not as hard as my friends Paul Walker—who would have celebrated his 43rd birthday this week—and Roger Rodas did.

With collector cars, especially cars driven less than a few thousand miles a year, the problem is that while your tread may look good, the rubber is old and dry, and simply will not work properly. The chemical compounds in your tires will degrade over time, significantly reducing your available grip, or worse, blowing out a sidewall under load.

With sport tires, colder weather and harsh weather will exacerbate this. In general, five years from date of manufacture (stamped on the tire) is about as old as you ever want to go in a car you plan to drive quickly. If that car (or the tires themselves) are stored in a climate-controlled facility under perfect conditions, maybe you could squeeze an extra year or two out of them. But the fact is, if you have a few cars, some maybe that you only drive a few times a year, replacing tires can easily become a dangerous afterthought.

The red-over-black Carrera GT was the right color combo and had a famous owner in its history: Graham Rahal. It also had only 3,500 miles on the odometer, making for a highly desirable example. He had just taken delivery of the car that week. Paul, as big of a gearhead as he was, had never been in a Carrera GT before. It was a Sunday, so the large office park was all-but-deserted save for AE’s small section of parking lot.

“Just once around the block.”

Once around the block was all it took to kill them both. The 3,500 mile Carrera GT was shod with its original tires. They, like the car attached to them, were 9 years old.

Roger lost control of the Carrera GT at an estimated 90 mph, and hit a tree.

I was distraught the first couple of days, but honestly, all I could think about was how the crash happened, and I just kept going back to that day at Spring Mountain. This was a super low-mileage car. Roger was a really good driver. There were no other cars around or last-minute obstacles to avoid. It had to have been on original tires.

No one talked about the tires. Everyone wanted to hang Paul and Roger out to dry as their speeding scapegoats. The tires were a footnote to an exaggerated story, and it became a missed opportunity to teach a very real lesson. The LA Times reported one article on it nearly 5 months after the crash, and that was it. The cause of the crash was still ruled “unsafe speed for the conditions.” And not “tires, which may as well have been made of paper mache.”

I’ve been to that office park, and I know that corner, and you can take that corner at 90 mph in a f---ing Prius, as long as you have tires that aren’t 9 years old. In a Carrera GT you could take it at 90, one-handed, while sipping a Venti Latte. I’m not saying you should be legally allowed to rip around an office park at 90, but from a technical sense, the actual cause of the crash was trash old tires. “Unsafe speed for the conditions” may have been the ticket Roger would have gotten if a cop stopped him, but that’s not what caused the accident.

I know no one wants to hear this, but I’m going to say it: Roger was a great driver, and actually quite conservative. And if he had a new set of tires on the car, that crash wouldn’t have happened, because 90 mph on that corner is nothing for a Carrera GT. With old tires, it’s not like you get oversteer or understeer, and you then correct, and back it down. They seem fine one minute, you hit the brakes or turn the wheel, and then they are just gone. You’re a passenger. Or, at least I was, back at Spring Mountain in 2012.

The point, kids, is if you have a car you don’t drive very often; or if you buy a car from a collection and it has low miles; or if you buy a car that has been sitting for any period of time, or used sporadically: check the tires, and change the tires. They may look like they are in good shape with not many miles on them, but if they are out of date and you don’t check, you won’t know anything’s gone wrong unless it’s too late. Learn from my stupidity in this situation, or from poor Roger and Paul. As they say, the life you save, may be your own.








Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/26/2017 04:04PM by pRICE cUBE.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: The unaccounted reason that caused crash that killed actor Paul Walker was tire expiration?
Posted by: C(-)ris
Date: May 26, 2017 03:56PM
Yep. I've passed on plenty of cars where the owner said the tires were good but they were old and rotted. Still plenty of tread, but they were junk.



C(-)ris
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Throwback Thursday Signature:
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: The unaccounted reason that caused crash that killed actor Paul Walker was tire expiration?
Posted by: jdc
Date: May 26, 2017 04:08PM
It was a tragedy, and the article is a good reminder to check old tires -- but sorry -- moving the blame from the driver to the tires doesnt seem right.



----


Edited 999 time(s). Last edit at 12:08PM by jdc.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: The unaccounted reason that caused crash that killed actor Paul Walker was tire expiration?
Posted by: Microman
Date: May 26, 2017 04:22PM
When you go to a tire place, an example (Costco), they will look at tires and see how old they are. There is a date on them. Usually if they are greater than 5 years, they will say its time for new tires.

So if you pick up an old car that has been sitting or one that just has low miles but hasn't been driven much, the tires may be too old.

Thats what I have picked up from my experience.... Experts can chime in.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: The unaccounted reason that caused crash that killed actor Paul Walker was tire expiration?
Posted by: pRICE cUBE
Date: May 26, 2017 04:28PM
Tires being too old was never taught in my driver's ed class at school. Maybe I wasn't paying enough attention?



Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: The unaccounted reason that caused crash that killed actor Paul Walker was tire expiration?
Posted by: chopper
Date: May 26, 2017 04:47PM
High performance application you def want fresh rubber.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: The unaccounted reason that caused crash that killed actor Paul Walker was tire expiration?
Posted by: Acer
Date: May 26, 2017 04:47PM
I've heard similar warnings when shopping for new tires--check the date codes on "new" tires, as well.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: The unaccounted reason that caused crash that killed actor Paul Walker was tire expiration?
Posted by: space-time
Date: May 26, 2017 04:48PM
Quote
pRICE cUBE
Tires being too old was never taught in my driver's ed class at school. Maybe I wasn't paying enough attention?

condoms can be too old too! Better check expiration date when you date.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: The unaccounted reason that caused crash that killed actor Paul Walker was tire expiration?
Posted by: GeneL
Date: May 26, 2017 04:53PM
Quote
space-time
Quote
pRICE cUBE
Tires being too old was never taught in my driver's ed class at school. Maybe I wasn't paying enough attention?

condoms can be too old too! Better check expiration date when you date.

LOL!



gl @ Dana Point, CA
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: The unaccounted reason that caused crash that killed actor Paul Walker was tire expiration?
Posted by: mattkime
Date: May 26, 2017 04:55PM
This has been obvious to me from cycling.

and I should change my tires more frequently but i'm a cheapskate. and weigh far less than a car.



Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: The unaccounted reason that caused crash that killed actor Paul Walker was tire expiration?
Posted by: wurm
Date: May 26, 2017 05:02PM
Quote
pRICE cUBE
Tires being too old was never taught in my driver's ed class at school. Maybe I wasn't paying enough attention?

I'm quite sure it was never taught. I learned about it only within the last five years or so. Once I learned that it was important, I discovered lots of information out there to confirm its importance. Just one example: [tires.tirerack.com]
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: The unaccounted reason that caused crash that killed actor Paul Walker was tire expiration?
Posted by: Dennis R
Date: May 26, 2017 05:14PM
Old tires could be very dangerous. I needed some and my boss gave me a couple that he said were almost new. Well one exploded on my vehicle and I was very lucky there was no accident or other damage.


Here is an interesting video about the dangers of old tires and places that were selling out of date tires.
[youtu.be]
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: The unaccounted reason that caused crash that killed actor Paul Walker was tire expiration?
Posted by: artie67
Date: May 26, 2017 05:41PM
Usually if you look at the tire there will be a DOT followed by three ovals.
The last or right hand oval has four numbers. Two for the week followed by two for the year.
Lots of "How to's" on Google. Here's one

[www.popularmechanics.com]
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: The unaccounted reason that caused crash that killed actor Paul Walker was tire expiration?
Posted by: mrbigstuff
Date: May 26, 2017 05:49PM
It depends on the application, and the type of tire, too. My winter tires are going fine and they're probably 6 or 7 years old now, but they get limited use and the sidewall is much stiffer than an all season. The biggest thing to look for is any drying or cracking, that's when tires should be recycled.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: The unaccounted reason that caused crash that killed actor Paul Walker was tire expiration?
Posted by: space-time
Date: May 26, 2017 06:11PM
Quote
Dennis R
Old tires could be very dangerous. I needed some and my boss gave me a couple that he said were almost new. Well one exploded on my vehicle and I was very lucky there was no accident or other damage.


Here is an interesting video about the dangers of old tires and places that were selling out of date tires.
[youtu.be]

what I don't understand is why the US Tire Manufacturers oppose having rules and regulations. If the tire was more than 6 years old, consumers would be forced to buy new tires, which means more business for manufacturers. As a reseller, you do not want your stock to expire, but as a manufacturer, you want your product to expire so you get to sell more new stuff.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: The unaccounted reason that caused crash that killed actor Paul Walker was tire expiration?
Posted by: August West
Date: May 26, 2017 06:12PM
date codes

It returns, AHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!



Picasso in his studio after the liberation of Paris, taken by my friend and mentor.

Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: The unaccounted reason that caused crash that killed actor Paul Walker was tire expiration?
Posted by: Filliam H. Muffman
Date: May 26, 2017 06:17PM
I have warned against driving on old tires in tire threads here at least twice.

Whoever put 9 year old tires on an ultra-performance car deserves a little guilt for the crash. The driver was still going something like 50 MPH above the speed limit, so they deserve the majority of the blame.

You should NEVER drive on tires over 6 years old. I would only excuse someone that owns a 60 year old classic and are showing it at a concours. It can be extended a few years if the tires are stored in a dark garage, but you shouldn't be showing off or doing 40 MPH over the speed limit on them.



In tha 360. MRF User Map
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: The unaccounted reason that caused crash that killed actor Paul Walker was tire expiration?
Posted by: billb
Date: May 26, 2017 06:24PM
Yes, old tires and bad things happening has been discussed here before.

I did not read that and get "we blame the tires" out of that article at all. Many accidents are a series of errors and this one certainly had a few.



The Phorum Wall keeps us safe from illegal characters and words
The doorstep to the temple of wisdom is the knowledge of one's own ignorance. -Benjamin Franklin
BOYCOTT YOPLAIT [www.noyoplait.com]
[soundcloud.com]
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: The unaccounted reason that caused crash that killed actor Paul Walker was tire expiration?
Posted by: Lew Zealand
Date: May 26, 2017 06:32PM
Quote
August West
date codes

It returns, AHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!

Yeah, I can't find FPM DIMMs for PowerSurge Macs with date codes newer than about 2002. Crazy!
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: The unaccounted reason that caused crash that killed actor Paul Walker was tire expiration?
Posted by: Mike Johnson
Date: May 26, 2017 06:45PM
Okay, sure. But you know what’s just as dangerous as old tires? The macho “I could take that corner at 90mph while sipping a Venti Latte” BS. Stuff happens, and when it happens while you’re going 90mph, people can die. Thinking you’re immune because you’re a great driver and you bought new tires is a good way to kill somebody.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: The unaccounted reason that caused crash that killed actor Paul Walker was tire expiration?
Posted by: JoeH
Date: May 26, 2017 07:12PM
Going back to the OP, if the accident investigators had considered the tires a signifiant factor in the crash, they would have included that in their reports. But they did not. So the whole screed on that website is armchair quarterbacking. The tires may have made a minor contribution, but ultimately too high a speed and probably an overconfident driver in a vehicle he had not had much time in were the major contributors to the crash.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: The unaccounted reason that caused crash that killed actor Paul Walker was tire expiration?
Posted by: Buzz
Date: May 26, 2017 07:17PM
Quote
Mike Johnson
Okay, sure. But you know what’s just as dangerous as old tires? The macho “I could take that corner at 90mph while sipping a Venti Latte” BS. Stuff happens, and when it happens while you’re going 90mph, people can die. Thinking you’re immune because you’re a great driver and you bought new tires is a good way to kill somebody.

Tires, actually just the very small patch of tread from them, are your only connection with the ground. At any speed. When anything bad happens, your life is dependent on those little rubber patches. When the "anything bad" that happens IS those little rubber patches, your ability to resolve the situation favorably is irreparably compromised. As long as you have some semblance of control over those little rubber patches, there is hope. Without those little rubber patches, there is only prayer.
==
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: The unaccounted reason that caused crash that killed actor Paul Walker was tire expiration?
Posted by: chopper
Date: May 26, 2017 07:54PM
<<Going back to the OP, if the accident investigators had considered the tires a signifiant factor in the crash, they would have included that in their reports. But they did not. So the whole screed on that website is armchair quarterbacking. The tires may have made a minor contribution, but ultimately too high a speed and probably an overconfident driver in a vehicle he had not had much time in were the major contributors to the crash. >>

100%.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: The unaccounted reason that caused crash that killed actor Paul Walker was tire expiration?
Posted by: chopper
Date: May 26, 2017 07:56PM
<<Okay, sure. But you know what’s just as dangerous as old tires? The macho “I could take that corner at 90mph while sipping a Venti Latte” BS. Stuff happens, and when it happens while you’re going 90mph, people can die. Thinking you’re immune because you’re a great driver and you bought new tires is a good way to kill somebody. >>

This place is BETTER than Facebook.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: The unaccounted reason that caused crash that killed actor Paul Walker was tire expiration?
Posted by: Dennis S
Date: May 26, 2017 08:43PM
DRY ROT.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: The unaccounted reason that caused crash that killed actor Paul Walker was tire expiration?
Posted by: Bimwad
Date: May 26, 2017 08:56PM
Quote
JoeH
Going back to the OP, if the accident investigators had considered the tires a signifiant factor in the crash, they would have included that in their reports. But they did not. So the whole screed on that website is armchair quarterbacking. The tires may have made a minor contribution, but ultimately too high a speed and probably an overconfident driver in a vehicle he had not had much time in were the major contributors to the crash.

Poor judgement and/or driver error was the primary cause behind that incident.

Even if the tires were a factor, 90mph in an office park is stupid, and such speed will compound the consequences of any mishaps.

Not exactly sure what point that writer is trying to make, aside from being cognizant of tire aging, but he could have used a better example to make his point. At least it's labeled as opinion.

With regard to the matter of tire age itself, there are no hard and fast rules. Both tire manufacturers and automakers have their own guidelines, and they can vary.

But, the consensus seems to be that from five-to-six years onward, they need to be inspected and monitored, and once they get up to about ten years, they should be replaced, regardless.

Quote
space-time
what I don't understand is why the US Tire Manufacturers oppose having rules and regulations. If the tire was more than 6 years old, consumers would be forced to buy new tires, which means more business for manufacturers. As a reseller, you do not want your stock to expire, but as a manufacturer, you want your product to expire so you get to sell more new stuff.

Again, there are no hard rules relating to age because the correlation between age and performance is not consistent, and hard to quantify. There are too many factors involved to single out age as such a significant determinant, and override another such as condition.

Show me a 50-year old that can finish a marathon, and I'll show you a 30-year old who cannot. Or are you advocating that the Carousel from Logan's Run is a good idea?

On a quantifiable level, there is an effort underway now in Europe to increase the minimum legal tread depth from 1.6mm to 3mm (full depth on a new tire is 8-9.5mm).

Everyone but Michelin has signed on. They disagree, and feel that consumers would be throwing away money by prematurely replacing tires that still have service life in them, and can perform adequately. There could also be an environmental concern, as tire production and disposal have large impacts, as well as the relationship between depth, rolling resistance and fuel efficiency.

Who's right?

Michelin has nothing to lose, and more to gain (like the rest). Even more so because their tires often cost more than their competitors. They are confident in the design and performance of their products. On principle, the basis on their argument is the same as that regarding age; rely on actual performance, not an arbitrary number to set guidelines.

I haven't seen compelling evidence from the other side of the argument, but I haven't looked too hard.

Regardless, whether the regulation is changed or not, there will still be vehicles on the road that do not comply, and the vast majority of the public will remain poorly educated on tires.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: The unaccounted reason that caused crash that killed actor Paul Walker was tire expiration?
Posted by: C(-)ris
Date: May 26, 2017 10:17PM
The safe level of tire tread remaining has more to do with road conditions and tire design than a set height. You couldn't drive here in the winter with either 1.6 or 3mm safely. However, in SoCal either would be fine and you could go down to 1mm in the dry summer. Depending on the tread design and compound you could easily get adequate grip in normal conditions with almost no tread remaining.



C(-)ris
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Throwback Thursday Signature:
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: The unaccounted reason that caused crash that killed actor Paul Walker was tire expiration?
Posted by: mrbigstuff
Date: May 26, 2017 10:55PM
Quote
Filliam H. Muffman
I have warned against driving on old tires in tire threads here at least twice.


You should NEVER drive on tires over 6 years old. I would only excuse someone that owns a 60 year old classic and are showing it at a concours. It can be extended a few years if the tires are stored in a dark garage, but you shouldn't be showing off or doing 40 MPH over the speed limit on them.

Says....who? You?
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: The unaccounted reason that caused crash that killed actor Paul Walker was tire expiration?
Posted by: DeusxMac
Date: May 27, 2017 08:16AM
Quote
Mike Johnson
Okay, sure. But you know what’s just as dangerous as old tires? The macho “I could take that corner at 90mph while sipping a Venti Latte” BS. Stuff happens, and when it happens while you’re going 90mph, people can die. Thinking you’re immune because you’re a great driver and you bought new tires is a good way to kill somebody.

agree smiley

"Roger was a great driver..."

Tires, yes, but even "great" drivers make mistakes. See Gilles Villeneuve and many other professional drivers.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/27/2017 08:27AM by DeusxMac.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: The unaccounted reason that caused crash that killed actor Paul Walker was tire expiration?
Posted by: Sam3
Date: May 29, 2017 07:35AM
Quote
mrbigstuff
Quote
Filliam H. Muffman
I have warned against driving on old tires in tire threads here at least twice.


You should NEVER drive on tires over 6 years old. I would only excuse someone that owns a 60 year old classic and are showing it at a concours. It can be extended a few years if the tires are stored in a dark garage, but you shouldn't be showing off or doing 40 MPH over the speed limit on them.

Says....who? You?

Discount Tire will start warning customers with tires older than 5 years, and WILL NOT install a customer's current tires if they are older than 10 years onto a vehicle.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.

Click here to login

Online Users

Guests: 199
Record Number of Users: 52 on November 20, 2014
Record Number of Guests: 847 on February 04, 2015