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The girls are in!
Posted by: BernDog
Date: October 11, 2017 12:39PM
Girls will now be accepted into all types of Boy Scouting.

[www.scoutingnewsroom.org]

Girls were formerly welcome into several alternative types of units, but not actual Cub or Boy Scouts.

As an Eagle Scout and a current Cub Scout den leader, I welcome the change. My son will be crossing over into Boy Scouts next spring, while his twin sister has been on the sidelines for years. We tried Girl Scouts, 4-H, etc, but their programs paled in comparison and/or were grossly mismanaged and poorly-led.

The only drawback is that I thought I'd be done building Pinewood Derby cars after this year. Younger daughter is seven, so we'll still be in it for a while.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/11/2017 12:47PM by BernDog.
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Re: The girls are in!
Posted by: NewtonMP2100
Date: October 11, 2017 12:40PM
.....hope they don't join the Weinstein troup.....



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I reject your reality and substitute my own!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/11/2017 12:49PM by NewtonMP2100.
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Re: The girls are in!
Posted by: ztirffritz
Date: October 11, 2017 12:49PM
I thought girls were always welcomed into the Adventurers groups. We include the siblings in our pack in activities, but they're not actual scouts.



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Re: The girls are in!
Posted by: davemchine
Date: October 11, 2017 12:51PM
Apparently the Girl Scouts are not thrilled with this decision. [www.nytimes.com]
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Re: The girls are in!
Posted by: cbelt3
Date: October 11, 2017 12:54PM
Aboot dang time. Most 1st world scouting programs are not single gender. The Canadians were kind of surprised when we Boy Scouts showed up. My youngest son was quite pleased, however, to discover a cute girl at the beach. After he sort of ran her over with a kayak. Then spent most of the evening talking on the beach.

It WILL cause a bit of a structural problem with all of the various BSA camps, because the facilities for females are quite limited (designed mostly with Moms in mind). But... since they don't shower together any more (stopped that in the ... I dunno, 60's ), any 'structural' objections should be easy to handle. And if any chartered organization gets their boxer in a twist, well they can go join the fundamentalist Jesus Troopers or whatever they call themselves.

I get the GSA getting annoyed about it, but honestly my wife's GSA troop LOVED to go camping, and was really annoyed at the limited facilities the local council had. Like none.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/11/2017 12:58PM by cbelt3.
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Re: The girls are in!
Posted by: BernDog
Date: October 11, 2017 12:57PM
Quote
davemchine
Apparently the Girl Scouts are not thrilled with this decision. [www.nytimes.com]

I know that at least some of the reason for girls (and their parents) wanting to be involved in Boy Scouts is because of the program quality. Much of what the Girl Scouts does doesn't resonate. Also, if I can extrapolate from my experience with the local units, there may be some level of disorganization all the way up to the national level.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/11/2017 01:10PM by BernDog.
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Re: The girls are in!
Posted by: jdc
Date: October 11, 2017 01:19PM
As far as I can tell, there is very little, if any interaction between the 2 groups on any level as a whole.

Wife has a been a girl scout leader for some time, so have kinda seen it first hand.



----


Edited 999 time(s). Last edit at 12:08PM by jdc.
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Re: The girls are in!
Posted by: rz
Date: October 11, 2017 01:54PM
Sorry, I'm not happy with the decision. As mentioned above, there are other organizations, and even a BSA organization (Adventurers) that allow girls. If girls and their parents weren't happy with what Girl Scouts has to offer, they should have made changes to it to make it more appealing. And if Girl Scouts didn't exist, I'd be more inclined to be accepting.

I was a cub scout, and a boy scout, and am currently a den leader in my son's pack. I remember cub scouts being a place where "boys can be boys", and then boy scouts being where a boy learns how to be a man. It's changed a lot since I was a boy though. Families are encouraged to come to every event. Sounds great until you're trying to lead a meeting and someone's two-year-old kid is continually screaming throughout the meeting. That particular kid is four now, and he still disrupts EVERY SINGLE MEETING. But it's still a place where the boys can act like, well, the little monsters they are. I guess things will be a lot different now.
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Re: The girls are in!
Posted by: Rick-o
Date: October 11, 2017 02:07PM
So, who will sell the cookies now? Plus, what will they be called? Birl Scouts? dunno smiley



"After a time, you may find, that having is not so pleasing a thing after all, as wanting. It is not logical, but it is often true."

- Mr. Spock



“There is no greater calling than to serve your fellow men. There is no greater contribution than to help the weak. There is no greater satisfaction than to have done it well.”

- Walter Reuther
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Re: The girls are in!
Posted by: Acer
Date: October 11, 2017 02:15PM
It will be different, to be sure. But it's BSA's game and they get to write the rules. Both BSA and Girl Scouts have had to work to stay relevant in the face of cultural change.
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Re: The girls are in!
Posted by: NewtonMP2100
Date: October 11, 2017 02:17PM
....but.... girls just wanna'.....have fun....



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Re: The girls are in!
Posted by: numbered
Date: October 11, 2017 02:36PM
I suspect there will be very different reactions by region. In the Bay Area, both organizations have lots of facilities and support. I had one child in each, was involved with the Boys, and my wife worked in the Service Unit for the girls. The Girls camped (and sailed, etc, and did community service) frequently.

I can state without reservation that the Boys leadership (that is, the local Boards, and paid managers) were lying weasels who would do or say anything to cover scandal or bad choices. The Girls leadership was to a woman composed of people of integrity. (There were political disputes but I never saw evil.)

I was so disappointed by the self-righteous lying of the Boys that I will have nothing to do with them. (I do try to be nice to the Cubs that come selling things.)

I consider the Girls an important charity to support.

I could go on, but let me simply say that Randall Stephenson, he of AT&T leadership fame, is "head" of the Boys. In the category of lying weasel, think it is an apt choice for the Boys to have made.
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Re: The girls are in!
Posted by: testcase
Date: October 11, 2017 03:05PM
When does a Cub Scout become a Boy Scout?




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Re: The girls are in!
Posted by: Ombligo
Date: October 11, 2017 03:33PM
Goodbye NFL tweets, hello BSA tweets.



“No persons are more frequently wrong, than those who will not admit they are wrong.”
-- François de La Rochefoucauld
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Re: The girls are in!
Posted by: ztirffritz
Date: October 11, 2017 03:51PM
The Boy Scouts caught quite a bit of flack about a decade ago because of their stance against gay den leaders. I don't want to get too political, but I'll just say the Girl Scouts are much more liberal in their views and practices than the Boy Scouts, though, the Boy Scouts have come a LONG way from where they were just 10 years ago. I think that both organizations operate separately, but if they were smart, they'd merge and gain some efficiencies in their operations by eliminating duplicate functions and better utilizing resources.



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Re: The girls are in!
Posted by: macphanatic
Date: October 11, 2017 05:05PM
Quote
ztirffritz
The Boy Scouts caught quite a bit of flack about a decade ago because of their stance against gay den leaders. I don't want to get too political, but I'll just say the Girl Scouts are much more liberal in their views and practices than the Boy Scouts, though, the Boy Scouts have come a LONG way from where they were just 10 years ago. I think that both organizations operate separately, but if they were smart, they'd merge and gain some efficiencies in their operations by eliminating duplicate functions and better utilizing resources.

Right or wrong, a lot of it was driven by the Mormon Church, which was a huge supporter of BSA (if not the largest single contributor). BSA made a lot of blunders along the way with regards to this issue.

Not sure about segregating the dens. It can be tough enough to get leaders for one den (which is by grade), let allow 2 dens. Hopefully, more moms will entertain being leaders. It's amazing how many thought that they couldn't be leaders.

I heard the Charter Organization (group/entity that hosts each unit) will have final say as to participation by girls. Not sure if this is true. However, some of the religious Charter Orgs may have issues with Co-ed programs.
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Re: The girls are in!
Posted by: Pat
Date: October 11, 2017 05:14PM
Venturing and Sea Scouts are BSA's current coed programs.

The new program is NOT coed. It is still a single gender program. In Cub Scouts, females can be in the same pack, but will have separate dens. Any activities that combine the two will have to have both male and female registered leaders present. Packs do not have to allow females to join. Packs can be all boy, all girl, or both with separate dens.

As for Boy Scouts, the program details have not been released, but I imagine it will be the same as for packs: Troops with no females, an all female patrol, or female only Troops. Again, combined activities will need both male and female registered leaders present.

My son is currently a Life Scout and I am the Advancement, and Training Coordinator for his Troop. He is also a Venture Crew member. His crew has 2 female members. My daughter was a Girl Scout but hated the program. Her Troop was OK, but the actual GS advancement program and summer camps were lame. She wanted to be rock climbing and hiking like her brother, not learning about diet and complexion (an actual GS summer camp program). So, I think it's good that the program has opened up, but given the PITA coed Crew outings can be with leadership, sleeping arrangements, I see a lot of Troops staying male only. Not to mention the hassle of running parallel but separate programs.
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Re: The girls are in!
Posted by: cbelt3
Date: October 11, 2017 05:24PM
Pat... thanks for the update. Ugh. Equal but separate, or keep being separate, or not.... really bad lesson to teach children. I would expect a Tiger Cub activity involving "Cootie Prevention", but that's about it.

I loved Canada's approach to integration. (almost 20 years ago !). I had a great conversation with a Canadian Scout leader back in 2014. I asked about the whole boy/girl thing, and she said "eh, we just make sure they are too tired to worry about that stuff... And we don't hold with any nonsense from the scouts."

[scoutdocs.ca]
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Re: The girls are in!
Posted by: numbered
Date: October 11, 2017 05:28PM
In practice, most Charter Organizations are only landlords. They do sign an agreement with the BSA but for the most part they are not that involved. The charter agreements mandates a once a year meeting. (I know macphanatic is right that the LDS host facilities are more closely monitored.)

Leadership is provided by local Councils where are separately incorporated (which is its own issue) and which have local Boards.

You might be surprised at the statement of purpose the BSA makes for its charter agreements:
Quote

The purpose of the Boy Scouts of America (BSA) program is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral
choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values and principles taught in the Scout Oath and Scout Law.
The Chartered Organization, as a duly constituted organization that serves youth, desires to use the program(s)
of the BSA to further its mission respecting the youth it supports. The Local Council provides the support and
service necessary to help the Chartered Organization succeed in its use of Scouting.

And you thought it was about camping! Or at least I did. Lord Baden Powell was recruiting an army =)

But he was totally supportive of girl participation, and founded the Girl Guides in the UK.
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Re: The girls are in!
Posted by: BernDog
Date: October 11, 2017 06:27PM
Reading between the lines of the BSA announcement, I'm going to go out on a limb and guess there will be completely separate boy/girl troops. That will give local troops the option of having brother/sister troops that could combine for activities, while giving others the option of staying completely segregated. I'm iffy on boy/girl patrols within the same troop. Camaraderie becomes much tighter on entering the troop, at a time when mixed genders could offer the biggest distraction. We'll see, though. Sounds like they're taking plenty of time to gather input.

The problem with Venture, Explorers, and Sea Scouts is that, while they may be co-ed, they're offshoot units with their own programs, are not as ubiquitous as packs and troops, and don't service younger kids.

Regarding the recent history of BSA decisions, I thought it was shameful and a contradiction of the most basic tenets of scouting to allow homosexual scouts, but not leaders. One of the main purposes of the entire program is to prepare future leaders. What's the point of training a leader if you then take away their ability to lead? That one was very poorly thought out. Hopefully this is a sign that, continuing forward, the BSA will continue to cede local control when it does not impact the quality of the program.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/11/2017 06:35PM by BernDog.
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Re: The girls are in!
Posted by: BernDog
Date: October 11, 2017 06:34PM
Quote
numbered
In practice, most Charter Organizations are only landlords. They do sign an agreement with the BSA but for the most part they are not that involved. The charter agreements mandates a once a year meeting. (I know macphanatic is right that the LDS host facilities are more closely monitored.)

Leadership is provided by local Councils where are separately incorporated (which is its own issue) and which have local Boards.

You might be surprised at the statement of purpose the BSA makes for its charter agreements:
Quote

The purpose of the Boy Scouts of America (BSA) program is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral
choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values and principles taught in the Scout Oath and Scout Law.
The Chartered Organization, as a duly constituted organization that serves youth, desires to use the program(s)
of the BSA to further its mission respecting the youth it supports. The Local Council provides the support and
service necessary to help the Chartered Organization succeed in its use of Scouting.

And you thought it was about camping! Or at least I did. Lord Baden Powell was recruiting an army =)

But he was totally supportive of girl participation, and founded the Girl Guides in the UK.

Fun fact: the scout sign used to be given with an outstretched arm. That ended when the Nazis came up with their all-too-similar salute, and the scout sign changed to a bent arm. Hitler also based the Nazi Youth on scouting.
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Re: The girls are in!
Posted by: NewtonMP2100
Date: October 12, 2017 06:54AM
....they said the troups will be segregated by sex but that they can integrate them....



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Re: The girls are in!
Posted by: Speedy
Date: October 12, 2017 07:13AM
Quote
NewtonMP2100
....they said the troups will be segregated by sex but that they can integrate them....

I knew it was only a matter of time before they integrated sex into the Scouts after this move. That should help boost membership on the boys' side.



Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.
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Re: The girls are in!
Posted by: freeradical
Date: October 12, 2017 08:56AM
The photography merit badge will become more popular.
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Re: The girls are in!
Posted by: Lux Interior
Date: October 12, 2017 09:28AM
I don't care for the Scouts. They disrespect our country by regularly burning the flag.
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Re: The girls are in!
Posted by: NewtonMP2100
Date: October 12, 2017 09:31AM
....so.....they boys....are.....back....in town....no longer.....??



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I reject your reality and substitute my own!
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Re: The girls are in!
Posted by: Pat
Date: October 12, 2017 09:52PM
Quote
Lux Interior
I don't care for the Scouts. They disrespect our country by regularly burning the flag.

They are retired according to the Flag Code.
I'd like it to go away because of the health/environmental issues with burning nylon flags.
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Re: The girls are in!
Posted by: NewtonMP2100
Date: October 12, 2017 10:03PM
.....you go....girl.....



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I reject your reality and substitute my own!
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Re: The girls are in!
Posted by: freeradical
Date: October 12, 2017 10:49PM
This is one of the things that I learned from being a Boy Scout.

Beavis and Butt-Head approved!

[www.youtube.com]
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Re: The girls are in!
Posted by: JoeH
Date: October 13, 2017 03:41PM
Quote
Pat
Quote
Lux Interior
I don't care for the Scouts. They disrespect our country by regularly burning the flag.

They are retired according to the Flag Code.
I'd like it to go away because of the health/environmental issues with burning nylon flags.

The actual US code just states that burning is the preferred method without specifying that it is the only method:

Quote
4 U.S. Code § 8 par. k
(k) The flag, when it is in such condition that it is no longer a fitting emblem for display, should be destroyed in a dignified way, preferably by burning.
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