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Study: [Gas] Cars can't yet match electric vehicles on efficiency
Posted by: Speedy
Date: November 14, 2017 04:01PM
[www.usatoday.com]

"DETROIT -- If you prefer gasoline-power over a fully electric vehicle, you'll have to buy a car that's a lot more fuel miserly than the one you're probably driving now if you want to try to match efficiency.

A new study by the University of Michigan Transportation Research Institute finds that gas-powered vehicles need to average 55.4 miles per gallon in the U.S. in order to produce fewer greenhouse gas emissions than a battery-electric vehicle.

That's because even most electric cars aren't oil or coal free. Their batteries are charged by electricity generated at power plants, which often are fired by oil or coal."



Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.
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Re: Study: [Gas] Cars can't yet match electric vehicles on efficiency
Posted by: Racer X
Date: November 14, 2017 04:07PM
Well, no shirt. Hybrids are designed for the engine to run in the sweet spot of max power and fuel economy and are designed specifically for that, They stay in that RPM band due to the CVT.

Massive ICE diesel generating plants run well into the 50% efficiency range. A diesel car/light truck is about 25%. The generators run at a constant load and a steady RPM, just like a hybrid car does.

Because of what I wanted to do with my '71 Buick, I designed it to loaf along at 2250 rpm at 60, and 3000 at 80 mph. It has a top speed of @160. Now, because of the engines parts combined to do this, it has better fuel economy at 80 than it does at 60. The engine makes better power and is more efficient in the 2800-5000 rpm range. I could improve it even more with a modern 6 speed overdrive automatic, but they don't handle the torque very well. The wind up from 60mph to 100 is VERY quick.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/14/2017 04:12PM by Racer X.
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Re: Study: [Gas] Cars can't yet match electric vehicles on efficiency
Posted by: davester
Date: November 14, 2017 05:25PM
What are they talking about with "can't yet match"? There's no way that they will ever match electric vehicles due to the less than 20% efficiency of internal combustion engines (ICE) in cars and trucks (not to mention lack of regenerative braking). Also note that the 55.4 mpg target for the US is based purely on dirty fuels such as coal and oil for electrical generation. As the original article in the Detroit Free Press points out, "In Canada and France, the numbers would be even higher, 169.5 mpg and 524.6 mpg respectively" due to the cleaner, more efficient electricity generating methods there. [www.freep.com] . Most of the western US also uses cleaner electricity generation so ICE vehicles will never approach the efficiency of electric.



"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." (1987) -- Carl Sagan



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/14/2017 05:27PM by davester.
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Re: Study: [Gas] Cars can't yet match electric vehicles on efficiency
Posted by: billb
Date: November 14, 2017 06:10PM
opposed cylinder engines being developed for auto use are supposed to be 35-40% thermally efficient.
hybrids are the future, not huge battery banks



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Re: Study: [Gas] Cars can't yet match electric vehicles on efficiency
Posted by: Speedy
Date: November 14, 2017 06:12PM
Quote
davester
What are they talking about with "can't yet match"? There's no way that they will ever match electric vehicles due to the less than 20% efficiency of internal combustion engines (ICE) in cars and trucks (not to mention lack of regenerative braking). Also note that the 55.4 mpg target for the US is based purely on dirty fuels such as coal and oil for electrical generation. As the original article in the Detroit Free Press points out, "In Canada and France, the numbers would be even higher, 169.5 mpg and 524.6 mpg respectively" due to the cleaner, more efficient electricity generating methods there. [www.freep.com] . Most of the western US also uses cleaner electricity generation so ICE vehicles will never approach the efficiency of electric.

But electrics don't go vroom, vroom like gas cars do when you shift them.



Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.
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Re: Study: [Gas] Cars can't yet match electric vehicles on efficiency
Posted by: sekker
Date: November 14, 2017 06:18PM
Quote
Speedy
Quote
davester
What are they talking about with "can't yet match"? There's no way that they will ever match electric vehicles due to the less than 20% efficiency of internal combustion engines (ICE) in cars and trucks (not to mention lack of regenerative braking). Also note that the 55.4 mpg target for the US is based purely on dirty fuels such as coal and oil for electrical generation. As the original article in the Detroit Free Press points out, "In Canada and France, the numbers would be even higher, 169.5 mpg and 524.6 mpg respectively" due to the cleaner, more efficient electricity generating methods there. [www.freep.com] . Most of the western US also uses cleaner electricity generation so ICE vehicles will never approach the efficiency of electric.

But electrics don't go vroom, vroom like gas cars do when you shift them.

This, sir, CAN be fixed!
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Re: Study: [Gas] Cars can't yet match electric vehicles on efficiency
Posted by: hal
Date: November 14, 2017 06:31PM
Quote
sekker
Quote
Speedy
Quote
davester
What are they talking about with "can't yet match"? There's no way that they will ever match electric vehicles due to the less than 20% efficiency of internal combustion engines (ICE) in cars and trucks (not to mention lack of regenerative braking). Also note that the 55.4 mpg target for the US is based purely on dirty fuels such as coal and oil for electrical generation. As the original article in the Detroit Free Press points out, "In Canada and France, the numbers would be even higher, 169.5 mpg and 524.6 mpg respectively" due to the cleaner, more efficient electricity generating methods there. [www.freep.com] . Most of the western US also uses cleaner electricity generation so ICE vehicles will never approach the efficiency of electric.

But electrics don't go vroom, vroom like gas cars do when you shift them.

This, sir, CAN be fixed!

I figured it out when I was six!

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Re: Study: [Gas] Cars can't yet match electric vehicles on efficiency
Posted by: bfd
Date: November 14, 2017 06:40PM
Quote
sekker
Quote
Speedy
Quote
davester
What are they talking about with "can't yet match"? There's no way that they will ever match electric vehicles due to the less than 20% efficiency of internal combustion engines (ICE) in cars and trucks (not to mention lack of regenerative braking). Also note that the 55.4 mpg target for the US is based purely on dirty fuels such as coal and oil for electrical generation. As the original article in the Detroit Free Press points out, "In Canada and France, the numbers would be even higher, 169.5 mpg and 524.6 mpg respectively" due to the cleaner, more efficient electricity generating methods there. [www.freep.com] . Most of the western US also uses cleaner electricity generation so ICE vehicles will never approach the efficiency of electric.

But electrics don't go vroom, vroom like gas cars do when you shift them.

This, sir, CAN be fixed!

True, but believe it or not - Elon and Co provided a new "Chill" setting recently for those drivers who don't like having their heads thrown back against the headrest every time they floor it. smiley-laughing001

Personally, if you can't afford the ludicrous mode level, then standard G-force acceleration is still one of the the best things about the car - can't believe that many have complained about uber-acceleration to need a "chill" mode offered now.

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Re: Study: [Gas] Cars can't yet match electric vehicles on efficiency
Posted by: M A V I C
Date: November 14, 2017 07:24PM
If was a taxpayer in Michigan, I'd be mad. This as useful as a study that says a car can't carry as many people as a bus, yet.




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Re: Study: [Gas] Cars can't yet match electric vehicles on efficiency
Posted by: RoadToad
Date: November 14, 2017 07:57PM
I found this interesting:
Tesla car battery production releases as much CO2 as 8 tears of gasoline driving




Badger, Badger, Badger, Badger, Badger...
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Re: Study: [Gas] Cars can't yet match electric vehicles on efficiency
Posted by: Speedy
Date: November 14, 2017 08:03PM
Quote
M A V I C
If was a taxpayer in Michigan, I'd be mad. This as useful as a study that says a car can't carry as many people as a bus, yet.

Well, it isn't obvious to everyone so a study like this gives those of us who like electrics something to show to those who like to remind us that battery manufacturing causes greenhouse gases as do power stations and then there is loss due to transmission, etc. Also, the study was probably not funded by only Michigan taxpayers.



Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.
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Re: Study: [Gas] Cars can't yet match electric vehicles on efficiency
Posted by: Speedy
Date: November 14, 2017 08:08PM
Quote
RoadToad
I found this interesting:
Tesla car battery production releases as much CO2 as 8 tears of gasoline driving

And this, too:

[www.popularmechanics.com]



Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.
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Re: Study: [Gas] Cars can't yet match electric vehicles on efficiency
Posted by: Racer X
Date: November 14, 2017 08:12PM
Sure, no real surprise their. And solar cell production is one of the dirtiest industrial process there is. There is no free lunch.

You can shuffle things around into different "ecological accounting columns" but the only thing that matters is the number at the bottom.
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Re: Study: [Gas] Cars can't yet match electric vehicles on efficiency
Posted by: davester
Date: November 14, 2017 08:51PM
Quote
RoadToad
I found this interesting:
Tesla car battery production releases as much CO2 as 8 tears of gasoline driving

As usual, wingnut Anthony Watts miscites a scientific study to come to the wrong conclusion. Watts' is a self-aggrandizing nincompoop! Here's a dissection of that article among others showing why Watts' miscitation is intellectually dishonest: [www.linkedin.com] Unfortunately it requires some reading and actual critical thinking since it isn't lightweight fluff like WUWT.

Edit: Oops, I see that Speedy beat me to it. That nonsensical "Tesla battery = 8 years of gasoline driving" article has certainly been making the rounds of the nutcase sites.



"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." (1987) -- Carl Sagan



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/14/2017 08:57PM by davester.
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Re: Study: [Gas] Cars can't yet match electric vehicles on efficiency
Posted by: davester
Date: November 14, 2017 08:58PM
Quote
Racer X
Sure, no real surprise their. And solar cell production is one of the dirtiest industrial process there is. There is no free lunch.

You can shuffle things around into different "ecological accounting columns" but the only thing that matters is the number at the bottom.

Ah, another nonsensical claim. At least RoadToad posted a source for his outrageous claim. Where's yours?



"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." (1987) -- Carl Sagan
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Re: Study: [Gas] Cars can't yet match electric vehicles on efficiency
Posted by: Racer X
Date: November 14, 2017 09:03PM
director-level electrical engineer who manages power distribution for our massive local utility. Known him since high school.

Plenty of info on the interwebs. Starts with the mining of the raw materials, all the way through the nasty chemicals in the fab process.
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Re: Study: [Gas] Cars can't yet match electric vehicles on efficiency
Posted by: mrlynn
Date: November 14, 2017 09:24PM
Get rid of the subsidies, and see how well the electrics compete against the internal-combustion cars.

/Mr Lynn



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Re: Study: [Gas] Cars can't yet match electric vehicles on efficiency
Posted by: billb
Date: November 14, 2017 09:36PM
Quote
mrlynn
Get rid of the subsidies, and see how well the electrics compete against the internal-combustion cars.

/Mr Lynn
you mean like in Denmark and Norway where sales drop like a rock ?



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The doorstep to the temple of wisdom is the knowledge of one's own ignorance. -Benjamin Franklin
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Re: Study: [Gas] Cars can't yet match electric vehicles on efficiency
Posted by: M A V I C
Date: November 14, 2017 10:39PM
Can't be any worse than the wind generators installed all across the state that get turned off to keep the price of electricity from dropping too low. Someone should do a study on that.




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Re: Study: [Gas] Cars can't yet match electric vehicles on efficiency
Posted by: Racer X
Date: November 14, 2017 10:51PM
So THAT'S why they are never turning.........
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Re: Study: [Gas] Cars can't yet match electric vehicles on efficiency
Posted by: davester
Date: November 15, 2017 12:06AM
Quote
mrlynn
Get rid of the subsidies, and see how well the electrics compete against the internal-combustion cars.

/Mr Lynn

I agree. The massive subsidies and free research provided to the oil companies are absurd compared to the pittance given to the electric car makers.



"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." (1987) -- Carl Sagan



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/15/2017 12:07AM by davester.
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Re: Study: [Gas] Cars can't yet match electric vehicles on efficiency
Posted by: cbelt3
Date: November 15, 2017 08:20AM
.. and Amish transportation releases large quantities of methane, which is a greenhouse gas !
Except for the kick bikes which I see in use when I drive around Middlefield. [www.amishscooters.com]
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Re: Study: [Gas] Cars can't yet match electric vehicles on efficiency
Posted by: mrlynn
Date: November 15, 2017 08:33AM
Quote
davester
Quote
mrlynn
Get rid of the subsidies, and see how well the electrics compete against the internal-combustion cars.

/Mr Lynn

I agree. The massive subsidies and free research provided to the oil companies are absurd compared to the pittance given to the electric car makers.

Nice try. You know I'm talking about the subsidies given to the taxpayers who buy the electric cars.

/Mr Lynn
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Re: Study: [Gas] Cars can't yet match electric vehicles on efficiency
Posted by: Speedy
Date: November 15, 2017 09:44AM
Quote
mrlynn
Quote
davester
Quote
mrlynn
Get rid of the subsidies, and see how well the electrics compete against the internal-combustion cars.

/Mr Lynn

I agree. The massive subsidies and free research provided to the oil companies are absurd compared to the pittance given to the electric car makers.

Nice try. You know I'm talking about the subsidies given to the taxpayers who buy the electric cars.

/Mr Lynn

They are going away for each taxpayer as the car makers reach the allowed production limit to qualify for a tax credit. Oil company subsidies continue.



Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/15/2017 09:54AM by Speedy.
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Re: Study: [Gas] Cars can't yet match electric vehicles on efficiency
Posted by: Speedy
Date: November 15, 2017 09:52AM
Electrics are the future, get used to it. And that change will happen quickly. Everybody laughed when the first automobile appeared. "That noisy, ugly, dirty thing will never replace the horse. Where will you buy gasoline? And there will never be enough gasoline. Look at how it gets stuck in the road; that almost never happens with a horse and buggy. Good thing there is a law that an automobile must be preceded by a person on foot to warn people with horses."

Some folks still keep a buggy whip just in case... in the closet next to their typewriter and tape deck and VCR and CRT TV.

Check out the first minute of this video:

[m.youtube.com]



Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 11/15/2017 10:07AM by Speedy.
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Re: Study: [Gas] Cars can't yet match electric vehicles on efficiency
Posted by: numbered
Date: November 15, 2017 10:14AM
Quote
MAVIC
Can't be any worse than the wind generators installed all across the state that get turned off to keep the price of electricity from dropping too low.

And this is a problem? The issue is that we need ways to shift the timing of generation to make renewables even more competitive...the situation in Cali now is that we are ahead of schedule for 50% renewables, a goal that was called crazy just a few years ago:

Quote

So much solar power now floods the California grid from late morning through mid-afternoon that on many days, there isn’t a need for all of it. But the state is still heavily reliant on conventional power plants burning natural gas, which provide the large majority of California’s electricity during late afternoons and evenings.

(And in the Pacific Northwest there is enough hydro most years that turbines are only needed part of the time.)

This, plus the low cost of natural gas, is what is killing coal.

We could put some surplus power into EVs, but storage is coming fast. Here's Ramez Naam from 2015 on storage following Moore's law (He does not cite Moore, but the fall looks like the transistor curve.)

All the car firms are betting on EV now.
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Re: Study: [Gas] Cars can't yet match electric vehicles on efficiency
Posted by: freeradical
Date: November 15, 2017 10:58AM
Quote
Speedy
Electrics are the future, get used to it.

Not in rural areas.

They will become the "second" car for many families, especially those who live in a city or the suburbs.
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Re: Study: [Gas] Cars can't yet match electric vehicles on efficiency
Posted by: modelamac
Date: November 15, 2017 11:12AM
Mavic,

Electricity suppliers still need income to maintain the generators that supply juice to areas without wind/solar power, and to supply juice when the wind is insufficient.

The situation would be different if the utility companies owned all of the wind turbines.

Quote
M A V I C
Can't be any worse than the wind generators installed all across the state that get turned off to keep the price of electricity from dropping too low. Someone should do a study on that.



Mr. Curmudgeon, on Mav/EC/Sierra/blood thinner & some other "old people pills".
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Re: Study: [Gas] Cars can't yet match electric vehicles on efficiency
Posted by: M A V I C
Date: November 15, 2017 12:17PM
Quote
numbered
Quote
MAVIC
Can't be any worse than the wind generators installed all across the state that get turned off to keep the price of electricity from dropping too low.

And this is a problem? The issue is that we need ways to shift the timing of generation to make renewables even more competitive...the situation in Cali now is that we are ahead of schedule for 50% renewables, a goal that was called crazy just a few years ago:

Quote
modelamac
Mavic,

Electricity suppliers still need income to maintain the generators that supply juice to areas without wind/solar power, and to supply juice when the wind is insufficient.

The situation would be different if the utility companies owned all of the wind turbines.

What's the point of building and installing wind turbines if they're not used? It's a complete waste. The reason they shut them off is not because of income, but because the loans they signed come due in full if the price dips below a certain level. And I'm not talking about turning it off for hours or days, but for months.




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Re: Study: [Gas] Cars can't yet match electric vehicles on efficiency
Posted by: numbered
Date: November 15, 2017 12:19PM
Many states have moved to the model of charging for the network access separately from the generation. In Cali we now may a fixed rate for the poles, wires, transformers, etc. This covers the utilities. Most of the utilities outsource generation if they can.

Cali did the same thing for gas infrastructure, so the varying costs of the fuel was transparent.
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Re: Study: [Gas] Cars can't yet match electric vehicles on efficiency
Posted by: srf1957
Date: November 15, 2017 02:05PM
Quote
M A V I C
Can't be any worse than the wind generators installed all across the state that get turned off to keep the price of electricity from dropping too low. Someone should do a study on that.
That is just backwards. The wind generators around here get turned off because they cost 3x the regular. The laws say when demand reaches a certain level they have to use a set amount of reusable . When they were dumping water last spring on the Snake and Columbia rivers they screamed that it wasn't fair. Over supply of power and they shut down most expensive .
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Re: Study: [Gas] Cars can't yet match electric vehicles on efficiency
Posted by: davester
Date: November 15, 2017 04:47PM
Quote
M A V I C
What's the point of building and installing wind turbines if they're not used? It's a complete waste. The reason they shut them off is not because of income, but because the loans they signed come due in full if the price dips below a certain level. And I'm not talking about turning it off for hours or days, but for months.

This makes no sense to me and I'm not sure I believe it. Please provide a source link for this.



"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." (1987) -- Carl Sagan
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Re: Study: [Gas] Cars can't yet match electric vehicles on efficiency
Posted by: davester
Date: November 15, 2017 04:51PM
Quote
Racer X
director-level electrical engineer who manages power distribution for our massive local utility. Known him since high school.

Plenty of info on the interwebs. Starts with the mining of the raw materials, all the way through the nasty chemicals in the fab process.

Sorry, but personal ad hoc communications and armwaving about the internet are not valid sources of information. Statement busted until proven otherwise.



"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." (1987) -- Carl Sagan
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Re: Study: [Gas] Cars can't yet match electric vehicles on efficiency
Posted by: Speedy
Date: November 15, 2017 06:03PM
Quote
freeradical
Quote
Speedy
Electrics are the future, get used to it.

Not in rural areas.

They will become the "second" car for many families, especially those who live in a city or the suburbs.

We are city dwellers. Our VW Passat Diesel is our second car, our Volt is our first. We have a bit over 100k miles on the VW, nearly 50k miles on the Volt. The Volt will pass the Passat in total miles in a few years. We put 4612 miles on our Volt and 2002 miles on the VW in the last 12 months. All the Volt miles were local save for ~150. The VW miles were a mix of local and a few ~300 mile trips. If it made economic sense, I would sell the VW and buy a Bolt. We would use the Volt for long trips and the Bolt everywhere it would reach.

Rural drivers will also use electric because that is how the Ford F-150 will come in a few years. It most likely will have an ICE range extender but most miles will be on battery. That 12 miles into town and back will be all battery.



Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/15/2017 06:06PM by Speedy.
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Re: Study: [Gas] Cars can't yet match electric vehicles on efficiency
Posted by: M A V I C
Date: November 15, 2017 08:10PM
Quote
davester
Quote
M A V I C
What's the point of building and installing wind turbines if they're not used? It's a complete waste. The reason they shut them off is not because of income, but because the loans they signed come due in full if the price dips below a certain level. And I'm not talking about turning it off for hours or days, but for months.

This makes no sense to me and I'm not sure I believe it. Please provide a source link for this.

I think I've posted a link here before. I just googled and apparently there's many additional reasons they are often shut down - including not enough transmission lines to carry the power. It's not worth it to me to spend more than a couple minutes on it.




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Re: Study: [Gas] Cars can't yet match electric vehicles on efficiency
Posted by: Winston
Date: November 15, 2017 08:30PM
If solid state batteries become a reality, the car world will most certainly change.

[en.wikipedia.org]
Quote

Solid-state lithium-ion batteries are a type of solid-state battery where the liquid electrolyte in lithium-ion batteries is replaced with a solid material. Some designs also eliminate binders and separators.[1] Solid-state designs do not overheat or catch fire, because the solid electrolyte prevents dendrites from creating short circuits.[2] Acceptance of solid state electrolytes has been limited by the poor conductance of such materials.[3]

. . .

In November 2017, Fisker Inc., the company behind the Tesla Model S-fighting EMotion announced that it had filed patents for a new type of battery technology. In an elaborate press release, the company announced that the emerging technology of solid state batteries, could put electric cars with 500-plus mile ranges and one-minute recharging times on the roads as early as the year 2024.

This isn't pie-in-the-sky. I've read that Toyota plans to have solid state lithium-ion batteries by 2022.

MIT:
Toward all-solid lithium batteries
February 2, 2017
[news.mit.edu]

University of Texas
Lithium-Ion Battery Inventor Introduces New Technology for Fast-Charging, Noncombustible Batteries
Feb. 28, 2017
[news.utexas.edu]


- Winston



------------------------
Be seeing you.
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Re: Study: [Gas] Cars can't yet match electric vehicles on efficiency
Posted by: davester
Date: November 15, 2017 10:18PM
Quote
M A V I C
I think I've posted a link here before. I just googled and apparently there's many additional reasons they are often shut down - including not enough transmission lines to carry the power. It's not worth it to me to spend more than a couple minutes on it.

IOW, you've got nuthin'.



"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." (1987) -- Carl Sagan
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Re: Study: [Gas] Cars can't yet match electric vehicles on efficiency
Posted by: Racer X
Date: November 16, 2017 12:51AM
Quote
davester
Quote
Racer X
director-level electrical engineer who manages power distribution for our massive local utility. Known him since high school.

Plenty of info on the interwebs. Starts with the mining of the raw materials, all the way through the nasty chemicals in the fab process.

Sorry, but personal ad hoc communications and armwaving about the internet are not valid sources of information. Statement busted until proven otherwise.

Good Lord. Too lazy to spend 5 seconds to Google it yourself?

First hit on "How dirty are solar panels" [www.nationalreview.com]

"A new study by Environmental Progress (EP) warns that toxic waste from used solar panels now poses a global environmental threat. The Berkeley-based group found that solar panels create 300 times more toxic waste per unit of energy than nuclear power plants. Discarded solar panels, which contain dangerous elements such as lead, chromium, and cadmium, are piling up around the world, and there’s been little done to mitigate their potential danger to the environment."

"A 2013 investigation by the Associated Press found that from 2007 to 2011, the manufacture of solar panels in California “produced 46.5 million pounds of sludge and contaminated water." "one renewable-energy analyst quoted by the AP estimated it would take “one to three months of generating electricity [from the solar panels] to pay off the energy invested in driving those hazardous waste emissions out of state."
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Re: Study: [Gas] Cars can't yet match electric vehicles on efficiency
Posted by: davester
Date: November 16, 2017 07:27AM
Quote
Racer X
Quote
davester
Quote
Racer X
director-level electrical engineer who manages power distribution for our massive local utility. Known him since high school.

Plenty of info on the interwebs. Starts with the mining of the raw materials, all the way through the nasty chemicals in the fab process.

Sorry, but personal ad hoc communications and armwaving about the internet are not valid sources of information. Statement busted until proven otherwise.

Good Lord. Too lazy to spend 5 seconds to Google it yourself?

First hit on "How dirty are solar panels" [www.nationalreview.com]

"A new study by Environmental Progress (EP) warns that toxic waste from used solar panels now poses a global environmental threat. The Berkeley-based group found that solar panels create 300 times more toxic waste per unit of energy than nuclear power plants. Discarded solar panels, which contain dangerous elements such as lead, chromium, and cadmium, are piling up around the world, and there’s been little done to mitigate their potential danger to the environment."

"A 2013 investigation by the Associated Press found that from 2007 to 2011, the manufacture of solar panels in California “produced 46.5 million pounds of sludge and contaminated water." "one renewable-energy analyst quoted by the AP estimated it would take “one to three months of generating electricity [from the solar panels] to pay off the energy invested in driving those hazardous waste emissions out of state."

I have no doubt that you can dredge up all sorts of political non-peer-reviewed anti-solar, anti-environmental articles like that one. Julie Kelly is a right wing blogger writing for a far right political rag. The "study" she cites is by EP, a pro-nuclear lobbying organization, not known for their objectivity. That highly disputed and cherry-picking article is no better than the "e8 years of gasoline = one EV battery" article.It's not even a "study". It starts with the unjustified assumption (solar panels will not be recycled" and then declares the "shocking truth" that the pile of solar panels will be bigger than the pile of radioactive waste produced by nuclear plants (disregarding the much higher hazard and non-recyclability of nuclear waste). For obvious reasons this "study" has been picked up by all of the usual anti-science blogs.



"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." (1987) -- Carl Sagan



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/16/2017 08:39AM by davester.
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Re: Study: [Gas] Cars can't yet match electric vehicles on efficiency
Posted by: Bill in NC
Date: November 16, 2017 06:21PM
IMHO we'll see more hybrid power-trains rather than pure EVs in the near term.

But who cares?

Consumers still win (higher mpge, higher torque at low RPMs)

And I look forward to having something like a Powerwall on the side of my home.

Solid-state batteries?

Bring 'em on!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/16/2017 06:21PM by Bill in NC.
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