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Tell me about Toyota Hybrids – Camry & Rav4
Posted by: kurtzie
Date: March 26, 2018 12:00PM
Tell me about Toyota Hybrids – Camry & Rav4

Does anyone here have one?

We are looking for a new car for my wife.
She has a 70 mile each way commute (almost all highway, the opposite direction of traffic), 2-3 times a week.

Is this a good use of a hybrid?

Someone told me that after 45 mph the ICE kicks in and you really aren't getting the benefit of the hybrid.
Is this true?

How are they in the snow? (we live in Minnesota)

Thanks,

Steve



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/26/2018 12:44PM by kurtzie.
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Re: Tell me about Toyota Hybrids – Camary & Rav4
Posted by: Spiff
Date: March 26, 2018 12:05PM
I"ve got a Highlander Hybrid. I really like it . I fill up maybe once a month for gas. Yes, once you go over 40 or 45 mph, the combustion engine will take over. However, the electric motor will assist, thus giving better fuel economy.

You have to drive appropriately. You cannot drive like Jason Statham in "the Transporter". That will gobble up gas. The car needs to be coddled. Only then will you achieve anything close to the stated MPG.

Snow? What's that? I live in Columbia, SC. We don't have no stinking snow. However, I have driven the care twice in Pittsburgh with snow. It did just fine.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/26/2018 12:07PM by Spiff.
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Re: Tell me about Toyota Hybrids – Camary & Rav4
Posted by: jdc
Date: March 26, 2018 12:21PM
Hybrids mileage excels in city driving vs gas car, less so in highway commuting -- but they still get great highway mileage.

camry vs rav 4 is huge difference -- 53 highway for camry, 30 for rav 4.

With that many miles, I would really think about a kia/hyundia with their 10 year/100000 mile warranty. Slihglty less mpg than a camry, but $5000 less for a loaded version with leather/sunroof/etc. and the warranty...

70 miles, 2+ hours each day -- glad its only 2-3 days a week. I used to do something similar 10 years ago (66 miles, no snow), its a grind. Glad when it ended and got that time back.



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Edited 999 time(s). Last edit at 12:08PM by jdc.
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Re: Tell me about Toyota Hybrids – Camary & Rav4
Posted by: Ammo
Date: March 26, 2018 12:23PM
It’s Camry. :-)



Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a battle you know nothing about. —Wendy Mass

Until you make your unconscious conscious, it will direct your life and you will call it fate. - Carl Jung
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Re: Tell me about Toyota Hybrids – Camary & Rav4
Posted by: mrbigstuff
Date: March 26, 2018 12:29PM
A camary in the coal mine?


...ok, my newt impression is done for the day
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Re: Tell me about Toyota Hybrids – Camary & Rav4
Posted by: kurtzie
Date: March 26, 2018 12:45PM
Quote
Ammo
It’s Camry. :-)

Thanks I'm a VW guy.
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Re: Tell me about Toyota Hybrids – Camary & Rav4
Posted by: jdc
Date: March 26, 2018 01:10PM
Quote
kurtzie
Quote
Ammo
It’s Camry. :-)

Thanks I'm a VW guy.

So torture of another kind. ;)



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Edited 999 time(s). Last edit at 12:08PM by jdc.
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Re: Tell me about Toyota Hybrids – Camary & Rav4
Posted by: Racer X
Date: March 26, 2018 04:08PM
Quote
Spiff
I"ve got a Highlander Hybrid. I really like it . I fill up maybe once a month for gas. Yes, once you go over 40 or 45 mph, the combustion engine will take over. However, the electric motor will assist, thus giving better fuel economy.

You have to drive appropriately. You cannot drive like Jason Statham in "the Transporter". That will gobble up gas. The car needs to be coddled. Only then will you achieve anything close to the stated MPG.

Not sure that I agree. Might be true of the SUV/Crossovers, but I drive my Prius like a race car in "Power" mode and I still average 55 mpg.
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Re: Tell me about Toyota Hybrids – Camry & Rav4
Posted by: Forrest
Date: March 26, 2018 06:22PM
My 2016 Rav4 Hybrid get 33 mpg in cold weather/snow and 36 mpg in warmer weather. Difference is the gas engine stays on longer to get the heater and coolant warmed up. Battery is more efficient when warm. The Rav4 Hybrid is AWD - the rear wheels are powered by an electric motor.

Rav4 AWD gas version gets 24 mpg combined.
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Re: Tell me about Toyota Hybrids – Camry & Rav4
Posted by: Sarcany
Date: March 26, 2018 06:23PM
RAV4 Hybrid.

Best MPG is in light traffic under 25MPH with stoplights. Can break 50MPG sometimes going through DC at rush hour. (Usually a bit under 40MPG in tough city traffic, tho. If you sit for too long in traffic then the engine runs to top off the battery.)

Open highway, does anywhere from 26MPG (80MPH) to 33MPG (60MPH).

Overall, I'm averaging about 33MPG.

But that is far from the whole story.

Got the upgraded safety package and with 360-degree view, parking is mindbogglingly easy even in a tight parallel spot.

And it's an amazingly comfortable vehicle to drive. Not exciting. Music system is nothing special. Touch screen controls won't drive you mad like the Ford or Caddy SUVs would, but they aren't perfectly intuitive. It just works. Smooth and easy and relaxing. It's a road-rage-be-gone machine.







Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/26/2018 06:25PM by Sarcany.
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Re: Tell me about Toyota Hybrids – Camry & Rav4
Posted by: dk62
Date: March 26, 2018 06:42PM
Had Camry leased for 3 years. As someone said, it's a Camry - not too exciting and as the reaction I went BMW afterwards (my first luxury car). But with the Camry I was averaging 42 mpg on my 25 mile half freeway half suburban road commute, and I do not drive conservatively (for comparison, doing about 19 mpg in X3 for same commute).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/26/2018 06:43PM by dk62.
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Re: Tell me about Toyota Hybrids – Camry & Rav4
Posted by: Markintosh
Date: March 26, 2018 08:54PM
Consider the Chevy Bolt, a full plug in electric, which should cover her range.



“Live your life, love your life, don’t regret…live, learn and move forward positively.” – CR Johnson
Loving life in Lake Tahoe, CA
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Re: Tell me about Toyota Hybrids – Camry & Rav4
Posted by: space-time
Date: March 26, 2018 09:23PM
Quote
Markintosh
Consider the Chevy Bolt, a full plug in electric, which should cover her range.

yes. even a used Chevy Volt (second generation) should cover about 50+ miles on battery, after which use little get to finish the commute. But can she charge at the destination? how long will she stay there, and can they install a Level 2 charger for her? Or a Bolt with 230 mile range should be able to take her back and forth and charge at home.
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Re: Tell me about Toyota Hybrids – Camry & Rav4
Posted by: Forrest
Date: March 26, 2018 09:56PM
From all the vehicles mentioned, only the Toyota Rav4 Hybrid and Highlander Hybrid are AWD vehicles, and AWD is standard equipment.
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Re: Tell me about Toyota Hybrids – Camry & Rav4
Posted by: kurtzie
Date: March 26, 2018 10:21PM
Quote
space-time
Quote
Markintosh
Consider the Chevy Bolt, a full plug in electric, which should cover her range.

yes. even a used Chevy Volt (second generation) should cover about 50+ miles on battery, after which use little get to finish the commute. But can she charge at the destination? how long will she stay there, and can they install a Level 2 charger for her? Or a Bolt with 230 mile range should be able to take her back and forth and charge at home.

The Bolt and the Volt are nice vehicles, but they are too small. Same with the Prius.
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Re: Tell me about Toyota Hybrids – Camry & Rav4
Posted by: davester
Date: March 26, 2018 10:58PM
For a freeway commute I don't think the extra cost of buying a hybrid, which is optimized for non-freeway travel, is worth it. It's the wrong tool for the job. There are plenty of high fuel economy cars out there that will get you far more bang for the buck. Either that, or spring for an EV. Run the numbers and you'll find that the hybrid will never pay for itself in fuel savings.



"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." (1987) -- Carl Sagan
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Re: Tell me about Toyota Hybrids – Camry & Rav4
Posted by: AllGold
Date: March 27, 2018 12:23AM
Quote
davester
For a freeway commute I don't think the extra cost of buying a hybrid, which is optimized for non-freeway travel, is worth it. It's the wrong tool for the job. There are plenty of high fuel economy cars out there that will get you far more bang for the buck. Either that, or spring for an EV. Run the numbers and you'll find that the hybrid will never pay for itself in fuel savings.

True, but fuel savings is not the only reason you buy a car, hybrid or otherwise.



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Re: Tell me about Toyota Hybrids – Camry & Rav4
Posted by: AllGold
Date: March 27, 2018 12:30AM
Quote
kurtzie
The Bolt and the Volt are nice vehicles, but they are too small. Same with the Prius.

Have you actually looked at a Prius? There isn't much difference in cabin space between the Prius and Camry. The Rav4 is a different animal, of course. So is the Prius V, for that matter.







Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/27/2018 12:34AM by AllGold.
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Re: Tell me about Toyota Hybrids – Camry & Rav4
Posted by: Racer X
Date: March 27, 2018 12:52AM
The Prius V has twice the rated cargo space of the standard Prius FWIW.
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Re: Tell me about Toyota Hybrids – Camry & Rav4
Posted by: davester
Date: March 27, 2018 01:42AM
Quote
AllGold
Quote
davester
For a freeway commute I don't think the extra cost of buying a hybrid, which is optimized for non-freeway travel, is worth it. It's the wrong tool for the job. There are plenty of high fuel economy cars out there that will get you far more bang for the buck. Either that, or spring for an EV. Run the numbers and you'll find that the hybrid will never pay for itself in fuel savings.

True, but fuel savings is not the only reason you buy a car, hybrid or otherwise.

Pretty much the only reason to get a hybrid powertrain.



"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." (1987) -- Carl Sagan
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Re: Tell me about Toyota Hybrids – Camry & Rav4
Posted by: mattkime
Date: March 27, 2018 10:10AM
This is a common comment, but I'm always confused by stated vehicle size requirements when its going to used (mostly) by a single person.

Quote
kurtzie
The Bolt and the Volt are nice vehicles, but they are too small. Same with the Prius.



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Re: Tell me about Toyota Hybrids – Camry & Rav4
Posted by: dk62
Date: March 27, 2018 11:06AM
The main reason I got Camry and not Prius was the power for freeway driving.

And, BTW, that is another benefit of some hybrids - for some models, you do not get a great difference in mpg, but you do get a more powerful machine compared with ICE-only one.

But, considering the original question, for freeway driving, you are better off with Mazda 3 or, if you want AWD, Subaru Impreza (or Forester).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/27/2018 11:10AM by dk62.
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Re: Tell me about Toyota Hybrids – Camry & Rav4
Posted by: jdc
Date: March 27, 2018 11:15AM
Quote
davester
For a freeway commute I don't think the extra cost of buying a hybrid, which is optimized for non-freeway travel, is worth it. It's the wrong tool for the job. There are plenty of high fuel economy cars out there that will get you far more bang for the buck. Either that, or spring for an EV. Run the numbers and you'll find that the hybrid will never pay for itself in fuel savings.

This has started to shrink. base Camry LE is $24000. Hybrid LE is 27000

14 MPG hwy difference -- 23 in the city. those differnces add up a lot quicker than before.



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Edited 999 time(s). Last edit at 12:08PM by jdc.
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Re: Tell me about Toyota Hybrids – Camry & Rav4
Posted by: Robert M
Date: March 27, 2018 11:33AM
Matt,

Not sure why you get confused. Maybe you're more focused on how it looks from your perspective than thinking about the reasons someone may prefer a particular size/style vehicle. Case in point. My wife _much_ prefers a smaller car like the Yaris. Easier for her to park, doesn't feel as cumbersome on the road, better on fuel, easier for her to enter/exit, etc.

I prefer a larger vehicle with a more elevated seating position and, for me, AWD with ample space in the back is a must. And, I definitely prefer the back of an SUV or minivan and despise a trunk. And this was before I had to start hauling baby and toddler gear.

If we replace my wife's vehicle, she'll likely end up in another smaller vehicle, though it might be a small SUV instead of a small sedan or hatchback like the Mazda CX-3 or Honda HR-V. If I replace my CX-7, it'll be with a similar vehicle.

Robert



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/27/2018 11:41AM by Robert M.
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Re: Tell me about Toyota Hybrids – Camry & Rav4
Posted by: michaelb
Date: March 27, 2018 12:34PM
Quote
kurtzie

Someone told me that after 45 mph the ICE kicks in and you really aren't getting the benefit of the hybrid.
Is this true?

I haven't looked at either of these cars, but is this really true? I didn't think the Rav4 at least had an electric only range at all, so I thought it would operate like a hybrid, ie ICE is always on. Even the plug in prius has very limited range. We bought a used Volt and I thought the Volt was unique in having an extended electric only range + ICE when needed behind that.

I like the Rav4s, but as mentioned above, the awd feature in the hybrid is just a weak electric motor, so one key question if AWD really matters is how well that works and how much power that adds, etc. Is that really going to drive the vehicle through mud or deep snow when the front wheels are spinning or buried, etc. Otherwise, I think it may be a cool idea.
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Re: Tell me about Toyota Hybrids – Camry & Rav4
Posted by: Sarcany
Date: March 27, 2018 07:09PM
Quote
michaelb
I didn't think the Rav4 at least had an electric only range at all, so I thought it would operate like a hybrid, ie ICE is always on.

At 24MPH or below with the gas pedal pressed lightly, you can go about 6/10 of a mile in EV mode. Fun, quiet, but not often useful. The engine turns off automatically at low speed and when stopped/idling. The battery assists and you can get a sweet gain in MPG when not pressing too hard on the gas, even on the highway. There's a little indicator light on the console to indicate when you're hitting the battery and an animated display on the center-console to show when you're being too lead-footed.

Quote
michaelb
I like the Rav4s, but as mentioned above, the awd feature in the hybrid is just a weak electric motor, so one key question if AWD really matters is how well that works and how much power that adds, etc. Is that really going to drive the vehicle through mud or deep snow when the front wheels are spinning or buried, etc...

Heck, yes. It's actually a nudge more powerful than the std AWD version at about 194HP and allegedly handles better in adverse conditions with an "intelligent" continuously variable transmission that shifts power between front and back and between the rear wheels depending upon conditions.

Have no basis to compare to the std RAV4 in the snow, but I have yet to experience any problems in inclement weather other than this: While driving through a blizzard, I had some of the sensors in the front get iced up and had to deal with numerous false collision alerts until I pulled over and cleaned the sensors off.







Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/27/2018 07:13PM by Sarcany.
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Re: Tell me about Toyota Hybrids – Camry & Rav4
Posted by: Forrest
Date: March 28, 2018 05:57AM
As a Rav4 Hybrid owner, I agree with all of Sarcany's comments except one: the range on electric is 2-3 miles. Electric works well on speeds up to 40 mph on flat roads.

Best fuel mileage is achieved when accelerating at normal speed, not mashing the gas pedal to the floor. My 33/36 mpg figures quoted above are for 80% highway driving at 78 mph.

Considering the Rav4 Hybrid only costs $700 more than the gas version - it was money well spent and payback is achieved after 40K miles of driving at current gas prices.
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Re: Tell me about Toyota Hybrids – Camry & Rav4
Posted by: Sarcany
Date: March 28, 2018 06:57AM
Quote
Forrest
As a Rav4 Hybrid owner, I agree with all of Sarcany's comments except one: the range on electric is 2-3 miles. Electric works well on speeds up to 40 mph on flat roads.

I think that you're in probably in ECO mode and getting a battery-boost, not in EV mode. Or else you're a well-practiced hyper-miler with tricks that most people don't know.

Toyota's specs are very clear: EV mode cuts out after .6 miles on battery. They promote it as a way to reduce noise when pulling into your garage or to cut emissions when navigating a city parking garage, not for a commute.

You can extend the EV range a bit if you're going downhill and keep your foot off the gas. You can trick it a bit to get the speed up in EV mode if the battery is fully charged and the engine is warm enough and you've got a flat or down-sloping road (there are subtly different stages of operation that depend on the state of the battery and engine), but in day-to-day and normal operation, what I described is exactly the way that it behaves. EV is best for getting in and out of busy parking lots, not for regular driving.

This is from the quick-start guide that comes with the car in the bundle of documents that you'll find with the manual:

Possible driving distance when driving in EV drive mode

EV drive mode’s possible driving distance ranges from a few hundred meters to approximately 0.6 mile (1 km). However, depending on vehicle conditions, there are situations when EV drive mode cannot be used. (The distance that is possible depends on the hybrid battery [traction battery] level and driving conditions.)




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Re: Tell me about Toyota Hybrids – Camry & Rav4
Posted by: Forrest
Date: March 28, 2018 11:39AM
Read the manual - why?

I regularly drive 2-3 miles in EV mode - the road is flat or slightly down hill and I'm gentle on the gas pedal. According to the battery indicator on the dashboard, there's enough capacity.

I've tried using ECO mode a few times, but haven't found it useful. It automatically disengages above 25 mph.
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