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Yes Virginia, Autopilot was engaged so human could look for phone when Tesla slammed into stoped fire vehicle in Utah
Posted by: pRICE cUBE
Date: May 15, 2018 11:45AM
[www.ksl.com]
Previous reports indicate there were no brake lights. Unlike the Florida crash that decapitated a man, the fire truck that was crashed into did not have negative space under the semi truck cargo trailer.


SALT LAKE CITY (AP) — The driver of a Tesla electric car had the vehicle's semi-autonomous Autopilot mode engaged when she slammed into the back of a Utah fire truck over the weekend, in the latest crash involving a car with self-driving features.

The 28-year-old driver of the car told police in suburban Salt Lake City that the system was switched on and that she had been looking at her phone before the Friday evening crash.

Tesla's Autopilot system uses radar, cameras with 360-degree visibility and sensors to detect nearby cars and objects. It's built so cars can automatically change lanes, steer, park and brake to help avoid collisions.

The auto company markets the system as the "future of driving" but warns drivers to remain alert while using Autopilot and not to rely on it to entirely avoid accidents. Police reiterated that warning Monday.

A Tesla spokesperson did not comment following the disclosure about the use of the feature.

On Twitter, co-founder Elon Musk said it was "super messed up" that the incident was garnering public attention, while thousands of accidents involving traditional automobiles "get almost no coverage."





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Re: Yes Virginia, Autopilot was engaged so human could look for phone when Tesla slammed into stoped fire vehicle in Utah
Posted by: billb
Date: May 15, 2018 11:51AM
Those Tesla cars are only selectively killing us now, just wait until a holiday crush when they can kill in concert.



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Re: Yes Virginia, Autopilot was engaged so human could look for phone when Tesla slammed into stoped fire vehicle in Utah
Posted by: NewtonMP2100
Date: May 15, 2018 11:57AM
....well, it really is the stupid drivers doing the damage......



____________________________________________________

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Re: Yes Virginia, Autopilot was engaged so human could look for phone when Tesla slammed into stoped fire vehicle in Utah
Posted by: Paul F.
Date: May 15, 2018 12:24PM
Musk IS right about one thing... the only reasonable metric of comparison is are autonomous/semi-automonous cars having MORE, FEWER, or SIMILAR rates of accidents PER DRIVING HOURS.

An autonomous car crashed. So what. Tell me whether they're better or worse than human driven cars for a similar number of hours driven. If they're worse, then we can have a discussion. If they're better, then let's keep improving them without playing chicken little and banning them from the roads.



Paul F.
-----
A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand. - Lucius Annaeus Seneca c. 5 BC - 65 AD
----
Good is the enemy of Excellent. Talent is not necessary for Excellence.
Persistence is necessary for Excellence. And Persistence is a Decision.

--

--

--
Eureka, CA
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Re: Yes Virginia, Autopilot was engaged so human could look for phone when Tesla slammed into stoped fire vehicle in Utah
Posted by: Lux Interior
Date: May 15, 2018 12:28PM
Quote
Paul F.
So what.

If it didn't brake, it's not a very good "autonomous" car, for one.

I mean, if it had braked and then bumped into the engine at significantly less the initial 60 MPH that would be one thing, but initial reports (I know) say it didn't brake at all.
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Re: Yes Virginia, Autopilot was engaged so human could look for phone when Tesla slammed into stoped fire vehicle in Utah
Posted by: mikebw
Date: May 15, 2018 12:49PM
Still need to wait for the official data to be released.
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Re: Yes Virginia, Autopilot was engaged so human could look for phone when Tesla slammed into stoped fire vehicle in Utah
Posted by: bfd
Date: May 15, 2018 01:00PM
Broken ankle is all she had after a 60–0 instantaneous stop? That's a miracle in and of itself…
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Re: Yes Virginia, Autopilot was engaged so human could look for phone when Tesla slammed into stoped fire vehicle in Utah
Posted by: CW2V
Date: May 15, 2018 01:04PM


CW2V
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Re: Yes Virginia, Autopilot was engaged so human could look for phone when Tesla slammed into stoped fire vehicle in Utah
Posted by: pRICE cUBE
Date: May 15, 2018 01:11PM
Musk's complaints are not valid. This Autopilot system completely failed and he is trying to do a Whataboutism compared to human drivers. His system is SUPPOSED to be better than humans in crash avoidance. It appears in this case that Autopilot didn't even brake which means the radar/lidar and accompanying systems did not register a fire truck. This wasn't an autonomous car concluding a woman walking a bike was debris, this was a huge fire vehicle. If I were a Tesla driver, I would stop believing the hype of this thing and view it as fancy cruise control and not put my life in its hands at this point. It appears some are too willing to treat Autopilot as a fully autonomous system.



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Re: Yes Virginia, Autopilot was engaged so human could look for phone when Tesla slammed into stoped fire vehicle in Utah
Posted by: Paul F.
Date: May 15, 2018 01:22PM
And when you can find NO CASES of a human driver doing the same thing, your comparison will be valid.
Until then, there is no evidence that an autonomous system is WORSE than a human driver.
We DO have evidence that it's not as good as we'd LIKE it to be.

Quote
pRICE cUBE
Musk's complaints are not valid. This Autopilot system completely failed and he is trying to do a Whataboutism compared to human drivers. His system is SUPPOSED to be better than humans in crash avoidance. It appears in this case that Autopilot didn't even brake which means the radar/lidar and accompanying systems did not register a fire truck. This wasn't an autonomous car concluding a woman walking a bike was debris, this was a huge fire vehicle. If I were a Tesla driver, I would stop believing the hype of this thing and view it as fancy cruise control and not put my life in its hands at this point. It appears some are too willing to treat Autopilot as a fully autonomous system.



Paul F.
-----
A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand. - Lucius Annaeus Seneca c. 5 BC - 65 AD
----
Good is the enemy of Excellent. Talent is not necessary for Excellence.
Persistence is necessary for Excellence. And Persistence is a Decision.

--

--

--
Eureka, CA
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Re: Yes Virginia, Autopilot was engaged so human could look for phone when Tesla slammed into stoped fire vehicle in Utah
Posted by: mikebw
Date: May 15, 2018 01:23PM
But humans should never solely rely on the system. It is there to help where and when it is able to do so. Clearly it was out to lunch here but the driver is always responsible for maintaining control of the vehicle, so she should be charged with that.
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Re: Yes Virginia, Autopilot was engaged so human could look for phone when Tesla slammed into stoped fire vehicle in Utah
Posted by: Paul F.
Date: May 15, 2018 01:25PM
Once again, show me that a HUMAN DRIVER has never done exactly the same thing...
You want a PERFECT autonomous system. That doesn't exist.
Show me an apples to apples comparison using number of driving hours vs accidents, Human and autonomous - and then we can have a conversation about how good, or not, the autonomous system is relative to human drivers.

Quote
Lux Interior
Quote
Paul F.
So what.

If it didn't brake, it's not a very good "autonomous" car, for one.

I mean, if it had braked and then bumped into the engine at significantly less the initial 60 MPH that would be one thing, but initial reports (I know) say it didn't brake at all.



Paul F.
-----
A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand. - Lucius Annaeus Seneca c. 5 BC - 65 AD
----
Good is the enemy of Excellent. Talent is not necessary for Excellence.
Persistence is necessary for Excellence. And Persistence is a Decision.

--

--

--
Eureka, CA
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Re: Yes Virginia, Autopilot was engaged so human could look for phone when Tesla slammed into stoped fire vehicle in Utah
Posted by: NewtonMP2100
Date: May 15, 2018 01:47PM
Quote
mikebw
But humans should never solely rely on the system. It is there to help where and when it is able to do so. Clearly it was out to lunch here but the driver is always responsible for maintaining control of the vehicle, so she should be charged with that.


....this....we know that car 'autopilot' has not been perfected yet, so why use it like it is 100% reliable......??



____________________________________________________

I reject your reality and substitute my own!
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Re: Yes Virginia, Autopilot was engaged so human could look for phone when Tesla slammed into stoped fire vehicle in Utah
Posted by: Speedy
Date: May 15, 2018 01:54PM
She was texting while driving - moving violation.

Usually Elon is out there quickly with Tesla's data on the crash. Not so much this time.



Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.
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Re: Yes Virginia, Autopilot was engaged so human could look for phone when Tesla slammed into stoped fire vehicle in Utah
Posted by: pRICE cUBE
Date: May 15, 2018 02:00PM
Quote
Paul F.
And when you can find NO CASES of a human driver doing the same thing, your comparison will be valid.
Until then, there is no evidence that an autonomous system is WORSE than a human driver.
We DO have evidence that it's not as good as we'd LIKE it to be.

Quote
pRICE cUBE
Musk's complaints are not valid. This Autopilot system completely failed and he is trying to do a Whataboutism compared to human drivers. His system is SUPPOSED to be better than humans in crash avoidance. It appears in this case that Autopilot didn't even brake which means the radar/lidar and accompanying systems did not register a fire truck. This wasn't an autonomous car concluding a woman walking a bike was debris, this was a huge fire vehicle. If I were a Tesla driver, I would stop believing the hype of this thing and view it as fancy cruise control and not put my life in its hands at this point. It appears some are too willing to treat Autopilot as a fully autonomous system.

Humans are not equipped with radar/lidar that this vehicle is. At bare minimum, autopilot should have had some crash avoidance countermeasure kick in. It appears in this case it did nit. That is why Musk is using his Whataboutism defense instead of addressing why the system didn't even register a fire truck.



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Re: Yes Virginia, Autopilot was engaged so human could look for phone when Tesla slammed into stoped fire vehicle in Utah
Posted by: Paul F.
Date: May 15, 2018 02:09PM
And humans have eyes, and more frequently don't use THOSE.
I'm not defending how well the autopilot worked (or, in this case, DIDN'T work)... I'm saying - unless we address this with the proper perspective, that of "did it work better, worse, or the same, as what we're doing now" rather than the attitude of "ZERO RISK" - we'll never progress. Doing anything. Ever.


Quote
pRICE cUBE
Quote
Paul F.
And when you can find NO CASES of a human driver doing the same thing, your comparison will be valid.
Until then, there is no evidence that an autonomous system is WORSE than a human driver.
We DO have evidence that it's not as good as we'd LIKE it to be.

Quote
pRICE cUBE
Musk's complaints are not valid. This Autopilot system completely failed and he is trying to do a Whataboutism compared to human drivers. His system is SUPPOSED to be better than humans in crash avoidance. It appears in this case that Autopilot didn't even brake which means the radar/lidar and accompanying systems did not register a fire truck. This wasn't an autonomous car concluding a woman walking a bike was debris, this was a huge fire vehicle. If I were a Tesla driver, I would stop believing the hype of this thing and view it as fancy cruise control and not put my life in its hands at this point. It appears some are too willing to treat Autopilot as a fully autonomous system.

Humans are not equipped with radar/lidar that this vehicle is. At bare minimum, autopilot should have had some crash avoidance countermeasure kick in. It appears in this case it did nit. That is why Musk is using his Whataboutism defense instead of addressing why the system didn't even register a fire truck.



Paul F.
-----
A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand. - Lucius Annaeus Seneca c. 5 BC - 65 AD
----
Good is the enemy of Excellent. Talent is not necessary for Excellence.
Persistence is necessary for Excellence. And Persistence is a Decision.

--

--

--
Eureka, CA
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Re: Yes Virginia, Autopilot was engaged so human could look for phone when Tesla slammed into stoped fire vehicle in Utah
Posted by: pRICE cUBE
Date: May 15, 2018 02:19PM
Quote
Paul F.
And humans have eyes, and more frequently don't use THOSE.
I'm not defending how well the autopilot worked (or, in this case, DIDN'T work)... I'm saying - unless we address this with the proper perspective, that of "did it work better, worse, or the same, as what we're doing now" rather than the attitude of "ZERO RISK" - we'll never progress. Doing anything. Ever.


Quote
pRICE cUBE
Quote
Paul F.
And when you can find NO CASES of a human driver doing the same thing, your comparison will be valid.
Until then, there is no evidence that an autonomous system is WORSE than a human driver.
We DO have evidence that it's not as good as we'd LIKE it to be.

Quote
pRICE cUBE
Musk's complaints are not valid. This Autopilot system completely failed and he is trying to do a Whataboutism compared to human drivers. His system is SUPPOSED to be better than humans in crash avoidance. It appears in this case that Autopilot didn't even brake which means the radar/lidar and accompanying systems did not register a fire truck. This wasn't an autonomous car concluding a woman walking a bike was debris, this was a huge fire vehicle. If I were a Tesla driver, I would stop believing the hype of this thing and view it as fancy cruise control and not put my life in its hands at this point. It appears some are too willing to treat Autopilot as a fully autonomous system.

Humans are not equipped with radar/lidar that this vehicle is. At bare minimum, autopilot should have had some crash avoidance countermeasure kick in. It appears in this case it did nit. That is why Musk is using his Whataboutism defense instead of addressing why the system didn't even register a fire truck.


I am all for autonomous vehicles and believe they will exceed human safety skills. Tesla's issue is their naming and encouragement of using this technology that is half baked in the real world. Musk used to promote videos of Tesla Drivers doing silly things. He even liked posted video by the guy who eventually let Autopilot become Autoguillotine.



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Re: Yes Virginia, Autopilot was engaged so human could look for phone when Tesla slammed into stoped fire vehicle in Utah
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: May 15, 2018 03:22PM
On Twitter, co-founder Elon Musk said it was "super messed up" that the incident was garnering public attention..

Boo fskn hoo.

Grow a pair, Elon. The promise we're being sold on is the autonomous driving will save lives and time, not necessarily in that order. And it very likely will, I have no doubt, even if it's not done well.

My problem is— I want it to be done well. So when an auto-car crashes, I want to know why the car didn't perform as we would expect. A through, transparent disclosure of design and performance at the time of a collision, with a thorough AI (accident investigation) tells us should tell us what happened and why.

Yes, people driving cars kill people. At some level, we're all good with it. Most of is wish that we're the case, and that we all cared enough to do something more than just complain once in awhile. But auto cars are coming, and as far as I'm concerned, they should be markedly better than humans in many aspects of driving.

For me, at this point, this is not about blame. The driver should have paid attention. But there are questions that I'd like to see answers to:

What does the Tesla autopilot do?
Was it engaged?
If it was engaged, as she claims, how should it have performed?
If it was engaged, did perform as it should, or was there a failure?

There's probably more, but can't think of them. I don't care about comparisons, We're going to be asked to trust more tech than ever when driving a car. So knowing and understanding the how and why is not out of my purview as a potential customer or victim.

So yes, Elon, your or any auto-car crashes are going to get attention. Get used to it. It's going to go on until we generally accept that auto-cars will injure or kill people, just maybe not as many. Then we won't care who's fault it is, unless it's a family member.

Inaccurate reporting of any news item is egregious. But auto-car crashes are news, will be until we can safely assume it's probably not the fault of the car's tech.

For parity with 'dumb-car' crashes and their drivers, Elon and other manufactures can count on being sued if the car is felt to be at fault, whether or not it is their fault.




When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men
except by believing all possible evil
of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

-An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

Mister, that's a ten-gallon hat on a twenty-gallon head.

I *love* Sigs. It's Glocks I hate.
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Re: Yes Virginia, Autopilot was engaged so human could look for phone when Tesla slammed into stoped fire vehicle in Utah
Posted by: pipiens
Date: May 15, 2018 03:28PM
Quote
Paul F.
Musk IS right about one thing... the only reasonable metric of comparison is are autonomous/semi-automonous cars having MORE, FEWER, or SIMILAR rates of accidents PER DRIVING HOURS.

An autonomous car crashed. So what. Tell me whether they're better or worse than human driven cars for a similar number of hours driven. If they're worse, then we can have a discussion. If they're better, then let's keep improving them without playing chicken little and banning them from the roads.

agree smiley
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Re: Yes Virginia, Autopilot was engaged so human could look for phone when Tesla slammed into stoped fire vehicle in Utah
Posted by: JoeH
Date: May 15, 2018 03:44PM
Quote
pipiens
Quote
Paul F.
Musk IS right about one thing... the only reasonable metric of comparison is are autonomous/semi-automonous cars having MORE, FEWER, or SIMILAR rates of accidents PER DRIVING HOURS.

An autonomous car crashed. So what. Tell me whether they're better or worse than human driven cars for a similar number of hours driven. If they're worse, then we can have a discussion. If they're better, then let's keep improving them without playing chicken little and banning them from the roads.

agree smiley

About what we do know now is that it appears for Uber semi-autonomous cars the rate is worse. The hours driven versus accident figures have been a little short in coming from Musk and Tesla.
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Re: Yes Virginia, Autopilot was engaged so human could look for phone when Tesla slammed into stoped fire vehicle in Utah
Posted by: NewtonMP2100
Date: May 15, 2018 03:54PM
.....also, if it was engaged.......how big was the ring [ how many carats ]..........???



____________________________________________________

I reject your reality and substitute my own!
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Re: Yes Virginia, Autopilot was engaged so human could look for phone when Tesla slammed into stoped fire vehicle in Utah
Posted by: NewtonMP2100
Date: May 15, 2018 04:00PM
....Tesla stock today dropped quite a few dollars.......an analyst lowered their future stock price......and Tesla announced they would halt production to try to fix the production line......



____________________________________________________

I reject your reality and substitute my own!
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Re: Yes Virginia, Autopilot was engaged so human could look for phone when Tesla slammed into stoped fire vehicle in Utah
Posted by: Paul F.
Date: May 15, 2018 04:37PM
Quote
NewtonMP2100
....Tesla stock today dropped quite a few dollars.......an analyst lowered their future stock price......and Tesla announced they would halt production to try to fix the production line......

For six days. And it's not unexpected by anyone who's been paying attention.



Paul F.
-----
A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand. - Lucius Annaeus Seneca c. 5 BC - 65 AD
----
Good is the enemy of Excellent. Talent is not necessary for Excellence.
Persistence is necessary for Excellence. And Persistence is a Decision.

--

--

--
Eureka, CA
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Re: Yes Virginia, Autopilot was engaged so human could look for phone when Tesla slammed into stoped fire vehicle in Utah
Posted by: NewtonMP2100
Date: May 15, 2018 05:00PM
......I waited for the drop today and grabbed some shares......



____________________________________________________

I reject your reality and substitute my own!
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Re: Yes Virginia, Autopilot was engaged so human could look for phone when Tesla slammed into stoped fire vehicle in Utah
Posted by: Paul F.
Date: May 15, 2018 05:18PM
Quote
NewtonMP2100
......I waited for the drop today and grabbed some shares......

Good timing... I bough a couple more last time it was down in this range.



Paul F.
-----
A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand. - Lucius Annaeus Seneca c. 5 BC - 65 AD
----
Good is the enemy of Excellent. Talent is not necessary for Excellence.
Persistence is necessary for Excellence. And Persistence is a Decision.

--

--

--
Eureka, CA
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Re: Yes Virginia, Autopilot was engaged so human could look for phone when Tesla slammed into stoped fire vehicle in Utah
Posted by: Racer X
Date: May 15, 2018 09:36PM
Once again, where was it doing 60, and was that the posted and safe speed for that road?
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Re: Yes Virginia, Autopilot was engaged so human could look for phone when Tesla slammed into stoped fire vehicle in Utah
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: May 15, 2018 09:49PM
Once again, where was it doing 60, and was that the posted and safe speed for that road?

That's another question I have about auto-car mode— in auto mode does a Tesla default to observe (as in not exceeding them as they change) maximum posted speed limits, or can the driver select any speed he wants?




When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men
except by believing all possible evil
of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

-An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

Mister, that's a ten-gallon hat on a twenty-gallon head.

I *love* Sigs. It's Glocks I hate.
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Re: Yes Virginia, Autopilot was engaged so human could look for phone when Tesla slammed into stoped fire vehicle in Utah
Posted by: sekker
Date: May 15, 2018 10:54PM
Glad no one was seriously hurt.

Getting the AI right is important for autonomous driving.

Stop fighting with Musk - he’s a billionaire who doesn’t care except to try to get it right. I wish all such wealthy people were trying their best to improve the world - warts and all.
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Re: Yes Virginia, Autopilot was engaged so human could look for phone when Tesla slammed into stoped fire vehicle in Utah
Posted by: mrbigstuff
Date: May 15, 2018 11:45PM
Quote
Paul F.
Once again, show me that a HUMAN DRIVER has never done exactly the same thing...
You want a PERFECT autonomous system. That doesn't exist.
Show me an apples to apples comparison using number of driving hours vs accidents, Human and autonomous - and then we can have a conversation about how good, or not, the autonomous system is relative to human drivers.

Quote
Lux Interior
Quote
Paul F.
So what.

If it didn't brake, it's not a very good "autonomous" car, for one.

I mean, if it had braked and then bumped into the engine at significantly less the initial 60 MPH that would be one thing, but initial reports (I know) say it didn't brake at all.

Completely false equivalence to equate a non-Av with an AV. If that is not obvious, there's no debating this topic.
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Re: Yes Virginia, Autopilot was engaged so human could look for phone when Tesla slammed into stoped fire vehicle in Utah
Posted by: Carnos Jax
Date: May 16, 2018 02:24AM
I don't understand why people are having a hard time with Tesla calling it an autopilot. The term is borrowed from the aviation world. When pilots utilize the autopilot, they don't stop paying attention to what the airplane's doing, do they? The pilots are not supposed to go to sleep, or go watch a movie, etc. At least one of them is always monitoring the aircraft. Why do they do this? Because no system is 100% perfect. Airplane systems can and do fail periodically. But by far, they tend to commit fewer mistakes than a human pilot trying to perform the same tasks.

These Tesla crashes are the same thing. I would never completely ignore the car and what it's doing. Tesla says as much. The only one to fault in these types of crashes are the driver.
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Re: Yes Virginia, Autopilot was engaged so human could look for phone when Tesla slammed into stoped fire vehicle in Utah
Posted by: DeusxMac
Date: May 16, 2018 07:51AM
Quote
Carnos Jax
I don't understand why people are having a hard time with Tesla calling it an autopilot.

From another thread...
Quote
DeusxMac
They never should have named it “Autopilot”. That word is interpreted by the vast majority of people (inaccurately) as a direct reference to an airplane’s system where the the plane completely handles its own flight.

“Autopilots in modern complex aircraft... generally divide a flight into taxi, takeoff, climb, cruise..., descent, approach, and landing phases. Autopilots exist that automate all of these flight phases except taxi and takeoff.”

Tesla should have called it something like Enhanced Cruise Control.
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