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Nissan's Single Gas Pedal/Brake?
Posted by: Grumpyguy
Date: May 16, 2018 03:02PM
Just saw an ad where Nissan hypes a single gas pedal/brake. Didn't catch the model name.

You push it for acceleration and let it up to brake.

I just can't imagine this a good idea on the braking side.

You push down harder for more braking. With anti-lock brakes, you hold the pedal down for a straighter stop. Your natural instincts are to push the brake pedal to the floor to stop quickly.

Maybe with familiarity it works? But I just can't, in my mind, see how this setup works well, even if you get used to it.

Opinions? Thoughts?



Bryan
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Re: Nissan's Single Gas Pedal/Brake?
Posted by: cbelt3
Date: May 16, 2018 03:06PM
No tiller ? It will never catch on !
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Re: Nissan's Single Gas Pedal/Brake?
Posted by: saintyohann
Date: May 16, 2018 03:07PM
They were probably talking about the leaf.

They didn't remove the brake pedal, it's just a driving mode in a lot of EVs (the Volt and Bolt both do it too) it's mostly for stop and go, heavy traffic as a way to efficiently regen power instead of using the mechanical brakes.
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Re: Nissan's Single Gas Pedal/Brake?
Posted by: billb
Date: May 16, 2018 03:15PM
Sounds like the setup on my riding mower.
More of a seesaw pedal, except it is forward and reverse.
There is a "brake" on the left side but it is more of a parking brake/transmission lock I want to get off "brake".



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Re: Nissan's Single Gas Pedal/Brake?
Posted by: mikebw
Date: May 16, 2018 03:36PM
It is arguably safer, as if the driver lets off the pedal (gas) the default behavior of the vehicle is to stop.
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Re: Nissan's Single Gas Pedal/Brake?
Posted by: mrbigstuff
Date: May 16, 2018 03:44PM
Can't power corner on that, though.
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Re: Nissan's Single Gas Pedal/Brake?
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: May 16, 2018 04:17PM
Yeeeeahhhh, I'd need to see the implementation and application before casting a ballot.

On something like a lawn mower or golf cart, that makes sense, and might not be too hard to master.

Years ago, I operated an electric fork lift that had the same type of pedal. It worked because I didn't need to coast. There were two speeds— stop and go. Ok, Go may have had a small range of acceleration but not much.

I'd like to see how this would work on a street vehicle, where coasting is part of fuel (of any kind) economy.




When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men
except by believing all possible evil
of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

-An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

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Re: Nissan's Single Gas Pedal/Brake?
Posted by: cbelt3
Date: May 16, 2018 04:17PM
Ah... So the brake pedal becomes the "Holy schmoley there is a problem" pedal. Yeah.. me no likey. I believe the Prius does it better... the brake pedal is for regenerative braking until you push a lot harder, then the actual brakes turn on. I would expect a lot of Leafs with the e-pedal will 'just not stop and crashed !', and they will stop having that feature. People need to be trained instinctively to use the right control. Adding complexity guarantees failure.

Sheesh... Stupid lack of human factors engineering.

[electrek.co]
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Re: Nissan's Single Gas Pedal/Brake?
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: May 16, 2018 04:29PM
Hm, the Leaf.


I just can't imagine this a good idea on the braking side.

First blush, I agree.

Will removing one's foot be the equivalent of a a panic stop. That means some very careful metering. At least we can safely wager that rear-end collisions will be operator error.

But if you can practice it should [not] be insurmountable. New drivers will have it better though. I had two motorcycles years back and the shifter and brake were on opposite sides, and one shifted through gears opposite the other— shifting up through the gears meant clicking the shifter up on one bike and down on the other. Braking was a bit of a surprise at first.

The gas/brake thing could be easier to master.




When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men
except by believing all possible evil
of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

-An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

Mister, that's a ten-gallon hat on a twenty-gallon head.

I *love* Sigs. It's Glocks I hate.




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/16/2018 04:30PM by RAMd®d.
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Re: Nissan's Single Gas Pedal/Brake?
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: May 16, 2018 04:32PM
Ok, maybe an ePedal and a discrete brake pedal for those times when you just gotta stop?




When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men
except by believing all possible evil
of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

-An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

Mister, that's a ten-gallon hat on a twenty-gallon head.

I *love* Sigs. It's Glocks I hate.
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Re: Nissan's Single Gas Pedal/Brake?
Posted by: mikebw
Date: May 16, 2018 04:39PM
Quote
RAMd®d
Ok, maybe an ePedal and a discrete brake pedal for those times when you just gotta stop?

It looks like exactly that in the image above. The ePedal has a separate switch to enable that functionality, but the traditional brake pedal is always on the left.
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Re: Nissan's Single Gas Pedal/Brake?
Posted by: ztirffritz
Date: May 16, 2018 04:40PM
Just reading the comments, you can tell who has and who hasn't driven an EV. Almost every EV has the ability to drive single pedal. In the Volt, you put it the gear selector on 'L' and it doesn't actually change anything with gears, but it maximizes regenerative breaking so that when you let off of the accelerator pedal it begins to aggressively recapture that energy and slow the vehicle. On the Bolt it's nearly the same but even more aggressive. Teslas, Leafs, and just about every EV is the same. You realize that you don't actually need to use the brake pedal much.



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Re: Nissan's Single Gas Pedal/Brake?
Posted by: PeterW
Date: May 16, 2018 04:42PM
Had Musk come up with the one-pedal concept, there would be people here wetting themselves in anticipation of such a great breakthrough. But, since it’s Nissan, well... Hate to break it to you but the Leaf has two pedals. The brake is still there
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Re: Nissan's Single Gas Pedal/Brake?
Posted by: tenders
Date: May 16, 2018 05:32PM
Don’t worry, braking is simple. All you do is lift up a little door next to the volume knob on the sound system, where there’s a keypad. You enter your 8-character password, using the letters on the number keypad as necessary, and signifying the “shift” functionality using the # key before entering the appropriate number/letter.

Then enter “0” to brake, “00” to stop braking, “4” to accelerate, and “1” to coast.

Passwords need to be changed every 11 days for security purposes, cannot contain more than two characters from the last three passwords, and must contain at least one capital letter and no words that could be considered crude or offensive. Any Nissan dealer will be happy to reset the password for you during working hours if you have three forms of federal identification.
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Re: Nissan's Single Gas Pedal/Brake?
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: May 16, 2018 05:47PM
It looks like exactly that in the image above. The ePedal has a separate switch to enable that functionality, but the traditional brake pedal is always on the left.

That makes more sense. There'd be almost no acclimation period. One might have to practice to keep from inadvertently slowing more than that like but panic stops would still be second nature.

With the way the eBrake was 'highlighted' I thought it was the only pedal.


Just reading the comments, you can tell who has and who hasn't driven an EV.

I would be one, but I am familiar with regenerative braking. I just never thought it applied a significant (aggressive) braking force. I equated it with older ICE cars that didn't have the idle set to 1100rpm or whatever. You back off the gas and you could feel it slow, but never at a rate I'd consider as touching a brake pedal.

I really would like a Volt. I see them all the time and mainly on the freeways. I always wonder how far they're going and the state of charge. They're never in the 'slow' lane and they're moving smartly.




When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men
except by believing all possible evil
of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

-An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

Mister, that's a ten-gallon hat on a twenty-gallon head.

I *love* Sigs. It's Glocks I hate.
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Re: Nissan's Single Gas Pedal/Brake?
Posted by: N-OS X-tasy!
Date: May 16, 2018 06:17PM
Quote
saintyohann
They were probably talking about the leaf.

They didn't remove the brake pedal, it's just a driving mode in a lot of EVs (the Volt and Bolt both do it too) it's mostly for stop and go, heavy traffic as a way to efficiently regen power instead of using the mechanical brakes.

This. It's called regenerative braking.



It is what it is.
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Re: Nissan's Single Gas Pedal/Brake?
Posted by: Speedy
Date: May 16, 2018 06:51PM
Quote
RAMd®d
I would be one, but I am familiar with regenerative braking. I just never thought it applied a significant (aggressive) braking force. I equated it with older ICE cars that didn't have the idle set to 1100rpm or whatever. You back off the gas and you could feel it slow, but never at a rate I'd consider as touching a brake pedal.

I really would like a Volt. I see them all the time and mainly on the freeways. I always wonder how far they're going and the state of charge. They're never in the 'slow' lane and they're moving smartly.

Regen in our Volt is pretty aggressive. It takes some practice or your passengers will complain. But then many people mash the Go pedal hard every time the light turns green and then do the same with the Stop pedal as they approach a red light at the very next corner.

My brother-in-law does not rest his right heel on the floor when he drives so the vehicle is always and abruptly changing speeds every time he hits a bump or twitches or whatever which, after awhile, makes me car sick. It has the same effect on my sister so she always drives when they go somewhere together.

You adjust with practice. In five years all new cars will have batteries and regen. Sell your oil stocks now.



Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.
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Re: Nissan's Single Gas Pedal/Brake?
Posted by: Speedy
Date: May 16, 2018 06:58PM
Quote
ztirffritz
In the Volt, you put it the gear selector on 'L' and it doesn't actually change anything with gears, but it maximizes regenerative breaking so that when you let off of the accelerator pedal it begins to aggressively recapture that energy and slow the vehicle.

This^. No gears, one speed, the L is just for more aggressive regen. It is where both drivers in our family always put the shift lever. And I always use Sport mode for quicker accelerator tip-in. On the wide open interstate I may use D just so any foot movement on the accelerator pedal isn't very perceptible to my passengers.



Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.
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Re: Nissan's Single Gas Pedal/Brake?
Posted by: Rolando
Date: May 16, 2018 09:22PM
Most new cars have auto-emergency stop. I would think that would be default as well!



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Re: Nissan's Single Gas Pedal/Brake?
Posted by: Thrift Store Scott
Date: May 17, 2018 12:21AM
Quote
cbelt3
Ah... So the brake pedal becomes the "Holy schmoley there is a problem" pedal. Yeah.. me no likey. I believe the Prius does it better... the brake pedal is for regenerative braking until you push a lot harder, then the actual brakes turn on. I would expect a lot of Leafs with the e-pedal will 'just not stop and crashed !', and they will stop having that feature. People need to be trained instinctively to use the right control. Adding complexity guarantees failure.

Sheesh... Stupid lack of human factors engineering.

Agreed. May the deity-of-your-choice forgive me for quoting my Ultra-Luddite Dad* on this: That sounds like the sort of thing that would be great as long as it works and works right, but a real pain in the butt when it stops working.

For me, the big question is "When do the brake lights come on?". Do they only light up if the "Holey Schmoley" pedal is pressed? In an ideal world drivers would follow at a safe distance and pay enough attention to the car in front of them to notice if it is slowing down even if that car's brake lights never light up, but unfortunately the world we live in is far from perfect and I can foresee a lot of Leafs (Leaves?) getting rear-ended by semi-attentive drivers because they slowed down with nary a flash of brake light.

*Seriously, he's trapped in 1959. He firmly believes to this day that "You shouldn't buy a car with automatic transmission, power steering, or power brakes, and especially not power windows or power door locks because they haven't worked all the bugs out of those systems yet and they quit working all the time". Probably true to an extent in 1959, no longer true by about 1969, and definitely not the case by 1979.



Lie to me if you must, but don't lie to me and insult my intelligence in the same sentence.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/17/2018 12:22AM by Thrift Store Scott.
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Re: Nissan's Single Gas Pedal/Brake?
Posted by: Acer
Date: May 17, 2018 07:45AM
The Prius has a brake mode. It's meant to mimic the slow-down you would get from downshifting in a normal car. It's described as being mostly useful on hills. The brake lights do not come on, but they don't when you downshift either.
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Re: Nissan's Single Gas Pedal/Brake?
Posted by: raz
Date: May 17, 2018 10:13AM
Did Jony Ive start working for Nissan?



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Embarassing myself on the Internet since 1978.
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Re: Nissan's Single Gas Pedal/Brake?
Posted by: ztirffritz
Date: May 17, 2018 01:33PM
One of the issues that the Gen 1 Volt illustrated was the problem with regen braking and brake lights. The Gen I didn't light up the brake lights when the regen braking was active. Before you scream bloody murder, realize that for the last 100 years, when manual transmission vehicle downshifted, the brake lights didn't light either. It's functionally the same, but louder and wasetful. In the Gen II Volt and most every EV since, the Brake lights are activated when regen braking is active. Another issue that the Gen I Volt found was that people would forget to turn off the car when then parked it at home. Eventually the battery would be consumed. The problem was in the Volt when the battery was consumed the motor would start and smoke everyone out of the house. GM realized this was a significant issue and issued a firmware update that shut down the vehicle after it sat powered on in the Park for some period of time. I think it was 90min.

Quote
Thrift Store Scott
Quote
cbelt3
Ah... So the brake pedal becomes the "Holy schmoley there is a problem" pedal. Yeah.. me no likey. I believe the Prius does it better... the brake pedal is for regenerative braking until you push a lot harder, then the actual brakes turn on. I would expect a lot of Leafs with the e-pedal will 'just not stop and crashed !', and they will stop having that feature. People need to be trained instinctively to use the right control. Adding complexity guarantees failure.

Sheesh... Stupid lack of human factors engineering.

Agreed. May the deity-of-your-choice forgive me for quoting my Ultra-Luddite Dad* on this: That sounds like the sort of thing that would be great as long as it works and works right, but a real pain in the butt when it stops working.

For me, the big question is "When do the brake lights come on?". Do they only light up if the "Holey Schmoley" pedal is pressed? In an ideal world drivers would follow at a safe distance and pay enough attention to the car in front of them to notice if it is slowing down even if that car's brake lights never light up, but unfortunately the world we live in is far from perfect and I can foresee a lot of Leafs (Leaves?) getting rear-ended by semi-attentive drivers because they slowed down with nary a flash of brake light.

*Seriously, he's trapped in 1959. He firmly believes to this day that "You shouldn't buy a car with automatic transmission, power steering, or power brakes, and especially not power windows or power door locks because they haven't worked all the bugs out of those systems yet and they quit working all the time". Probably true to an extent in 1959, no longer true by about 1969, and definitely not the case by 1979.



**************************************
MacResource User Map: [www.zeemaps.com]#
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Re: Nissan's Single Gas Pedal/Brake?
Posted by: Speedy
Date: May 17, 2018 01:44PM
Quote
Thrift Store Scott
For me, the big question is "When do the brake lights come on?". Do they only light up if the "Holey Schmoley" pedal is pressed? In an ideal world drivers would follow at a safe distance and pay enough attention to the car in front of them to notice if it is slowing down even if that car's brake lights never light up, but unfortunately the world we live in is far from perfect and I can foresee a lot of Leafs (Leaves?) getting rear-ended by semi-attentive drivers because they slowed down with nary a flash of brake light.

The first generation Volts did not turn on the brake lights when slowing in L (regen) but the second generation do turn on the brake lights when you use the steering mounted paddles to slow. I have a first gen Volt and keep my eye on following vehicles when I slow in L. I have never had anyone even come close to colliding with me. Nor have I applied the brake pedal simply to turn on the brake lights as a warning. Most of the time I only step on the brake pedal to hold the car at a stop because below five miles per hour there is no regen applied, thus my brake lights are only on when I am nearly at a stop. Of course, when a light turns red right in front of me, I brake using the pedal.

People can see that a traffic light is red or that they are approaching a stop sign even if my Volt is between them and the traffic control. This also applies in bumper to bumper traffic. My VW TDI slows almost as much as my Volt when I downshift and it shows no brake lights. Big trucks do not turn on brake lights when engine braking takes place and, when bobtailing (no trailer), they can slow very quickly. In our area, it is rare that I don't have a turn lane when I am going to turn into a parking lot, etc. so I seldom have a case where I am the only vehicle that is going to slow quickly.

Edit: ztirffritz beat me to it.



Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/17/2018 01:47PM by Speedy.
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Re: Nissan's Single Gas Pedal/Brake?
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: May 17, 2018 06:54PM
The Nissan's eBrake is merely the gas pedal with the option of engaging regenerative braking, (or increasing it?) but not anything new or different than other eCars?

It sounded like something different. So as I said earlier this is akin to my older car's use of engine compression or engine braking.


Way way back when I had driver's education in school, we were still taught to place our left arm out the driver's window to indicate we were slowing, if not actually using the brake. I don't know if it was taught 100 years ago or not.

When using the ICE's brake pedal to decelerate at the same rate as using engine compression, especially when down shifting to do so, the brake light's illuminate. That happens no matter how slowly you slow your roll. So it makes sense that the brake lights should come on when your car slows more rapidly than just coasting. The idea of brake lights is to warn the drivers behind you. It's not like we'd modify the lights to illuminate only when stopping hard, just because we don't give signals when otherwise stopping.

The modern day CHMSL is based on the work done by a guy who pioneered deceleration warning lights for motorcycles. The light was amber and separate from the location and function of the brake lights. It flashed at one of seven rates to warn following drivers how fast one was slowing. LOL

I like the idea and put one on one of my early bikes. I'm going to do something similar for my current bike.




When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men
except by believing all possible evil
of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

-An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

Mister, that's a ten-gallon hat on a twenty-gallon head.

I *love* Sigs. It's Glocks I hate.
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