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look ma' no hands?!.....the Utah Tesla crash - hands off confirmed.....
Posted by: NewtonMP2100
Date: May 17, 2018 01:44PM
.....driver repeatedly took her hands off the wheel......


Tesla data show driver took her hands off wheel before Utah crash

......Police said the driver who crashed her Tesla into the back of a stopped fire truck in Utah last week had her hands off the steering wheel at the time, confirming the woman's claim that vehicle's Autopilot feature was engaged.

The 28-year-old had her hands off the wheel for 80 seconds up until the May 11 crash in South Jordan, Utah, police said Wednesday, citing Tesla’s official crash report.

Data recovered from the woman's Tesla Model S showed more than a dozen instances where she had taken her hands off of the steering wheel during the drive cycle before the crash, according to the South Jordan Police Department.

"On two such occasions, she had her hands off the wheel for more than one minute each time and her hands came back on only after a visual alert was provided," the report said. "Each time she put her hands back on the wheel, she took them back off the wheel after a few seconds."

Tesla also reiterated information listed in its drivers' manuals in its crash report, noting that drivers "absolutely must remain vigilant with their eyes on the road, hands on the wheel and they must be prepared to take any and all action necessary to avoid hazards on the road."

Police in South Jordan, about 17 miles south of Salt Lake City, did not reveal the woman's identity but said the she had been issued a citation for failing to keep proper lookout while operating a vehicle.

The woman sustained minor injuries, including a broken ankle, while the truck driver suffered from injuries related to whiplash, police said. The Tesla had extensive damage and was barely recognizable.

The Utah accident came just days after the National Transportation Safety Board said it was investigating another Tesla accident that killed two South Florida teens and injured another. The probe marked the federal agency’s fourth active investigation into the electric car maker's vehicles.

Tesla’s semi-autonomous Autopilot system is supposed to detect nearby cars and objects to avoid collisions, but the company said the feature shouldn't be used on roads with intersections, stop signs, red lights or suddenly changing traffic patterns, according to the car maker's user manuals.

"When using Autopilot, drivers are continuously reminded of their responsibility to keep their hands on the wheel and maintain control of the vehicle at all times," the company said in a statement Wednesday. "Tesla has always been clear that Autopilot doesn't make the car impervious to all accidents."



use common sense................?!



_____________________________________

I reject your reality and substitute my own!
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Re: look ma' no hands?!.....the Utah Tesla crash - hands off confirmed.....
Posted by: Racer X
Date: May 17, 2018 01:55PM
Still no mention as to whether 60 mph was legal and prudent where "she" was driving. Was the fire truck stopped on a highway?
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Re: look ma' no hands?!.....the Utah Tesla crash - hands off confirmed.....
Posted by: DeusxMac
Date: May 17, 2018 01:57PM
"80 seconds"... smiley-shocked003

At 60 mph the car would travel 1.33 miles - over 234 football fields - in those 80 seconds.
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Re: look ma' no hands?!.....the Utah Tesla crash - hands off confirmed.....
Posted by: Yoyodyne ArtWorks
Date: May 17, 2018 01:57PM
Tesla also reiterated information listed in its drivers' manuals in its crash report, noting that drivers "absolutely must remain vigilant with their eyes on the road, hands on the wheel and they must be prepared to take any and all action necessary to avoid hazards on the road."

What utter horseshit. Virtually all of today's electronic driver's aids, up to and including autopilot, are designed to let irresponsible drivers spend more time texting and otherwise dicking around rather than actually driving the vehicle. It is utterly disingenuous for manufacturers to express surprise and dismay when drivers do exactly that.



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Re: look ma' no hands?!.....the Utah Tesla crash - hands off confirmed.....
Posted by: cbelt3
Date: May 17, 2018 02:25PM
Quote
Yoyodyne ArtWorks
...Virtually all of today's electronic driver's aids, up to and including autopilot, are designed to let irresponsible drivers spend more time texting and otherwise dicking around rather than actually driving the vehicle. It is utterly disingenuous for manufacturers to express surprise and dismay when drivers do exactly that.
agree smiley
I test drove a few cars with "lane keeping" features. They made me very, very nervous. The 'distance control' seemed to be a bit more useful... cruise control / acceleration based on distance from the vehicle in front, but again....

I do not like the idea of technology that trains drivers to not have to pay attention. Because it will FAIL when weird stuff happens.
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Re: look ma' no hands?!.....the Utah Tesla crash - hands off confirmed.....
Posted by: Carnos Jax
Date: May 17, 2018 02:41PM
I disagree. I view the technology as an aid to prevent driver fatigue. In that way, it actually enhances overall safety.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/17/2018 02:42PM by Carnos Jax.
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Re: look ma' no hands?!.....the Utah Tesla crash - hands off confirmed.....
Posted by: JoeH
Date: May 17, 2018 03:16PM
Quote
Racer X
Still no mention as to whether 60 mph was legal and prudent where "she" was driving. Was the fire truck stopped on a highway?

Since she was cited for another offense, I would assume they would also have cited her for speeding if the limit was less than 60 mph.
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Re: look ma' no hands?!.....the Utah Tesla crash - hands off confirmed.....
Posted by: Racer X
Date: May 17, 2018 03:22PM
Not always. The last time someone hit my car, she broke 4 traffic laws. Was only cited for one.
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Re: look ma' no hands?!.....the Utah Tesla crash - hands off confirmed.....
Posted by: pRICE cUBE
Date: May 17, 2018 03:35PM
Quote
Carnos Jax
I disagree. I view the technology as an aid to prevent driver fatigue. In that way, it actually enhances overall safety.


Sure, they CAN be helpful IF they work. In this case, the Tesla Autopilot feature didn't see a solid multi-ton fire truck. This wasn't like the Florida fatality where the Lidar/radar crash avoidance system didn't see tractor trailer due to the empty space between the wheels.



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Re: look ma' no hands?!.....the Utah Tesla crash - hands off confirmed.....
Posted by: Carnos Jax
Date: May 17, 2018 03:56PM
They DO work, albeit with the rare mistake (there's no sense in throwing the baby out with the bathwater). The overall improvement in safety Autopilot affords more than makes up for the very small level of failures.
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Re: look ma' no hands?!.....the Utah Tesla crash - hands off confirmed.....
Posted by: Yoyodyne ArtWorks
Date: May 17, 2018 04:03PM
General Buck Turgidson: Well, I, uh, don't think it's quite fair to condemn a whole program because of a single slip-up, sir.



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Re: look ma' no hands?!.....the Utah Tesla crash - hands off confirmed.....
Posted by: Carnos Jax
Date: May 17, 2018 04:06PM
I think Gen Buck was talking about a single slip up that would lead to the annihilation of the human race. The rare Tesla Autopilot failure isn't a threat to our survival.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/17/2018 04:07PM by Carnos Jax.
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Re: look ma' no hands?!.....the Utah Tesla crash - hands off confirmed.....
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: May 17, 2018 04:11PM
What utter horseshit. Virtually all of today's electronic driver's aids, up to and including autopilot, are designed to let irresponsible drivers spend more time texting and otherwise dicking around rather than actually driving the vehicle.

I disagree.


I disagree. I view the technology as an aid to prevent driver fatigue. In that way, it actually enhances overall safety.

I agree with your disagreement and reasoning.

There will always be somebody who will push the envelope for whatever reason— laziness, notoriety, or base stupidity. Blaming the hardware as an enabler is mistaken at best.


Still no mention as to whether 60 mph was legal and prudent where she was "driving". Was the fire truck stopped on a highway?

Fixed that for you, unless there was some reason to believe 'she' wasn't a she. I got the impression the maintenance truck was stopped, looking at the damage. Or else it was moving very slowly (my guess).

We know she was distracted. What I want to know is what various auto-cars, in this case a Tesla are designed to do, when in auto-mode, on approaching an obstacle. Some cars have adaptive cruise control that's supposed to slow a car when overtaking another in the lane. Is this a feature of the Tesla, and if so, why didn't it work. If not, no problem. Tag goes to the driver.


Since she was cited for another offense, I would assume they would also have cited her for speeding if the limit was less than 60 mph.

Under these circumstances, whether or not auto-mode was involved, I'd think that would generally be the case.


Not always. The last time someone hit my car, she broke 4 traffic laws. Was only cited for one.

True, for various reasons. Most states traffic courts aren't fans of a cop loading up a driver with a lot of cites for a single stop. It's usually viewed as an attitude stop. And often the doctrine of 'lesser include' offenses is applied in traffic courts, just as it is in criminal courts.

For instance, a driver changes lanes from a protected left turn lane to a through traffic lane fails to signal and collides with a car already in the through traffic lane. In my county, both the SO and PDs would only cite for primary collision factor, as the lesser included are almost always tossed. Other infractions unrelated to the collision could and would be cited, but often by only the most pro-active police.

And yes, some cops aren't hard core or don't want to be seen as chicken___. But where DUI or a more serious collision is involved, around here, they get the hammer. This increases bail and often jail time while awaiting bail. You play you pay. Even then, the charging DA often drops the lesser included once it get to court. The judge or traffic commissioner does likewise 'in the interest of justice'.

Talk to any number of people who've receive traffic tickets and it's 'the cop didn't now what he was doing' I don't think I was going that fast' 'I did stop for that light' blah blah blah. The County has gone to everybody wearing body cams. All the motor units are giving great videos in court, and most drivers don't even realize their a video star.

YouTube has a great video of a woman stopped for speed and arrested for warrant(s) all the way though the arrest and booking process. She never realized she was a video star.




When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men except
by believing all possible evil of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

Perfection is the enemy of progress. -Winston Churchill

-An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

Mister, that's a ten-gallon hat on a twenty-gallon head.

I *love* SIGs. It's Glocks I hate.
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Re: look ma' no hands?!.....the Utah Tesla crash - hands off confirmed.....
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: May 17, 2018 04:28PM
In this case, the Tesla Autopilot feature didn't see a solid multi-ton fire truck.

Do we know this for a fact? I haven't seen any mention of what the Tesla's capabilities or 'responsibilities' are. I would assume that any car with an auto-mode, would at least be designed to slow, warn, stop, or all of the aforementioned, to avoid a collision. Maybe it's just me, but I haven't seen anything from Tesla or anybody of authority addressing that.


This wasn't like the Florida fatality where the Lidar/radar crash avoidance system didn't see tractor trailer due to the empty space between the wheels.

I may not be remembering the circumstances correctly. Was the tractor-trailer moving or stopped? I thought it was moving. A system that can't catch that because there was a space between the wheels seems to be poorly designed, to me.




When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men except
by believing all possible evil of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

Perfection is the enemy of progress. -Winston Churchill

-An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

Mister, that's a ten-gallon hat on a twenty-gallon head.

I *love* SIGs. It's Glocks I hate.
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Re: look ma' no hands?!.....the Utah Tesla crash - hands off confirmed.....
Posted by: ztirffritz
Date: May 17, 2018 05:18PM
Statistically, most of the automation that has been added to vehicles has improved safety. Most likely, had that woman in Utah not been driving a Tesla with Autopilot engaged, she'd have been in an accident far sooner because she would still have been texting her friend/putting on makeup/eating a scone, or some other distraction but without the aid of a autopilot to save her bacon over and over again. Yes, eventually the accident will still happen, but for all we know, it may have prevented countless other more serious accidents for months or years prior.



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MacResource User Map: [www.zeemaps.com]#
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Re: look ma' no hands?!.....the Utah Tesla crash - hands off confirmed.....
Posted by: Racer X
Date: May 17, 2018 05:18PM
Thanks for the correction, I DID mean "driving" Brain fart.
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Re: look ma' no hands?!.....the Utah Tesla crash - hands off confirmed.....
Posted by: Yoyodyne ArtWorks
Date: May 17, 2018 05:36PM
Quote
ztirffritz
Statistically, most of the automation that has been added to vehicles has improved safety. Most likely, had that woman in Utah not been driving a Tesla with Autopilot engaged, she'd have been in an accident far sooner because she would still have been texting her friend/putting on makeup/eating a scone, or some other distraction but without the aid of a autopilot to save her bacon over and over again. Yes, eventually the accident will still happen, but for all we know, it may have prevented countless other more serious accidents for months or years prior.

That sure sounds like technology as an enabler to me. To be sure, there are some technologies that can typically perform a task better (ABS braking on gravel is a good example) no matter how skilled the driver, but many of these "safety technologies" are superfluous if people would simply commit to driving the vehicle in a responsible, attentive manner.

Apparently we have given up on the latter being a reasonable expectation, and thus are welcoming these "safety technologies" with open arms...capitulation to careless behavior, in my book .



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Re: look ma' no hands?!.....the Utah Tesla crash - hands off confirmed.....
Posted by: Paul F.
Date: May 17, 2018 05:45PM
Quote
Yoyodyne ArtWorks
Quote
ztirffritz
Statistically, most of the automation that has been added to vehicles has improved safety. Most likely, had that woman in Utah not been driving a Tesla with Autopilot engaged, she'd have been in an accident far sooner because she would still have been texting her friend/putting on makeup/eating a scone, or some other distraction but without the aid of a autopilot to save her bacon over and over again. Yes, eventually the accident will still happen, but for all we know, it may have prevented countless other more serious accidents for months or years prior.

That sure sounds like technology as an enabler to me. To be sure, there are some technologies that can typically perform a task better (ABS braking on gravel is a good example) no matter how skilled the driver, but many of these "safety technologies" are superfluous if people would simply commit to driving the vehicle in a responsible, attentive manner.

Apparently we have given up on the latter being a reasonable expectation, and thus are welcoming these "safety technologies" with open arms...capitulation to careless behavior, in my book .

Wonderful, I am eagerly awaiting your plan for how to accomplish that!
We take what improvements we can get, how and when we can get them.



Paul F.
-----
A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand. - Lucius Annaeus Seneca c. 5 BC - 65 AD
----
Good is the enemy of Excellent. Talent is not necessary for Excellence.
Persistence is necessary for Excellence. And Persistence is a Decision.

--

--

--
Eureka, CA
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Re: look ma' no hands?!.....the Utah Tesla crash - hands off confirmed.....
Posted by: Racer X
Date: May 17, 2018 06:37PM
"if people would simply commit to driving the vehicle in a responsible, attentive manner."


smiley-laughing001
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Re: look ma' no hands?!.....the Utah Tesla crash - hands off confirmed.....
Posted by: Yoyodyne ArtWorks
Date: May 17, 2018 07:23PM
Hey, I’m a dreamer...



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Re: look ma' no hands?!.....the Utah Tesla crash - hands off confirmed.....
Posted by: pRICE cUBE
Date: May 17, 2018 07:33PM
Quote
RAMd®d

This wasn't like the Florida fatality where the Lidar/radar crash avoidance system didn't see tractor trailer due to the empty space between the wheels.

I may not be remembering the circumstances correctly. Was the tractor-trailer moving or stopped? I thought it was moving. A system that can't catch that because there was a space between the wheels seems to be poorly designed, to me.


The Florida fatality consisted of a semi truck turning onto a road in which the Tesla under Autopilot did not recognize the empty space below the trailer and between the axles. If the bottom had been solid, a vehicle would have T-boned the trailer. Since it was empty, the Tesla kept going and had the top sheered off by the trailer resulting in driver decapitation.







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Re: look ma' no hands?!.....the Utah Tesla crash - hands off confirmed.....
Posted by: pRICE cUBE
Date: May 17, 2018 07:42PM
Quote
Racer X
Still no mention as to whether 60 mph was legal and prudent where "she" was driving. Was the fire truck stopped on a highway?

[www.ksl.com]

I have driven on this road. It is called Bangerter Highway. It is a highway with a stoplight that bisects a road called 10400 South. I believe this is the area where the speed limit changes from 50 to 55 mph as you head more south. It would not be unusual for a care to be traveling at 60mph in that area as I have observed some people driving in excess of 70mph. Despite the rural look in the photos, this is in the thick of developed suburbia. That particular lot just hasn't been developed. Right at that intersection is a Costco and across the street is a Walmart. It is an intersection with heavy traffic.







Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/17/2018 07:43PM by pRICE cUBE.
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Re: look ma' no hands?!.....the Utah Tesla crash - hands off confirmed.....
Posted by: michaelb
Date: May 17, 2018 07:56PM
I hadn't read that the truck was stopped at a red light. It seems like teaching a car to read the light and stop at a red light would be autodriving 101, regardless of anything else on the road, like a large truck.

It also seems like these driving systems would be "map aware" so would already know where they are and the location of every light and stop sign and merge, etc, on whatever route they are driving.
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Re: look ma' no hands?!.....the Utah Tesla crash - hands off confirmed.....
Posted by: Racer X
Date: May 17, 2018 08:49PM
Quote
pRICE cUBE
Quote
Racer X
Still no mention as to whether 60 mph was legal and prudent where "she" was driving. Was the fire truck stopped on a highway?

[www.ksl.com]

I have driven on this road. It is called Bangerter Highway. It is a highway with a stoplight that bisects a road called 10400 South. I believe this is the area where the speed limit changes from 50 to 55 mph as you head more south. It would not be unusual for a care to be traveling at 60mph in that area as I have observed some people driving in excess of 70mph. Despite the rural look in the photos, this is in the thick of developed suburbia. That particular lot just hasn't been developed. Right at that intersection is a Costco and across the street is a Walmart. It is an intersection with heavy traffic.

OK, so 60ish is in the realm of "normal" for that stretch. Maybe not legal, but the usual prevailing speed.
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Re: look ma' no hands?!.....the Utah Tesla crash - hands off confirmed.....
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: May 17, 2018 10:30PM
According to The Verge, Tesla stated that had the radar seen the tractor wheels, it would have braked and the driver would have likely survived. The last known action of the driver was to set the cruise control to 74mph two minutes prior to the collision, which occurred in a posted 65mph zone.


Here's three parts of the FHP Traffic Homicide Investigation of the collision via The Verge.

They also include the NTSB report.


From what I've read, the Tesla as equipped at the time of this collision wasn't capable of preventing the crash. According to the DOT report, it wasn't designed for that scenario.

I believe at the time I opined a left turn right of way was an element of the crash, which it was. The truck driver 'didn't see' the Tesla. He also had 2.7mg THC in his blood. CA doesn't have presumptive levels of TCH to convict for DUI and it's beginning to bite us and will for some time. Investigating officers weren't able to determine impairment at the scene.

A DVD player was found in the car, but investigating officers could not substantiate the tractor-trailer driver's claim that the Tesla driver was watching a DVD at the time of the accident.

The rig driver was cited and found to be the cause of the accident and responsible for the death of the other driver. However, there were no criminal charges. I didn't see an explanation, but it could be the fact there was no attempt made to avoid the rig.

Back to the current collision, it would seem to me that IF the Tesla were in autopilot mode, it should have braked. Whether or not it would have avoided the collision I couldn't guess. Well I could but then why should I.

Driver error seems to be the cause and I there's more definitive information coming.




When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men except
by believing all possible evil of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

Perfection is the enemy of progress. -Winston Churchill

-An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

Mister, that's a ten-gallon hat on a twenty-gallon head.

I *love* SIGs. It's Glocks I hate.
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Re: look ma' no hands?!.....the Utah Tesla crash - hands off confirmed.....
Posted by: pRICE cUBE
Date: May 17, 2018 11:25PM
Quote
Racer X
Quote
pRICE cUBE
Quote
Racer X
Still no mention as to whether 60 mph was legal and prudent where "she" was driving. Was the fire truck stopped on a highway?

[www.ksl.com]

I have driven on this road. It is called Bangerter Highway. It is a highway with a stoplight that bisects a road called 10400 South. I believe this is the area where the speed limit changes from 50 to 55 mph as you head more south. It would not be unusual for a care to be traveling at 60mph in that area as I have observed some people driving in excess of 70mph. Despite the rural look in the photos, this is in the thick of developed suburbia. That particular lot just hasn't been developed. Right at that intersection is a Costco and across the street is a Walmart. It is an intersection with heavy traffic.

Cops in this area don't usually pull people over unless they are going 70 or more. I personally think it is a bad idea to go that fast with the amount of congestion possible with 2 megastores at that intersection and another mega development down the road.

OK, so 60ish is in the realm of "normal" for that stretch. Maybe not legal, but the usual prevailing speed.



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Re: look ma' no hands?!.....the Utah Tesla crash - hands off confirmed.....
Posted by: mikebw
Date: May 18, 2018 10:50AM
Quote
NewtonMP2100


Police in South Jordan, about 17 miles south of Salt Lake City, did not reveal the woman's identity but said the she had been issued a citation for failing to keep proper lookout while operating a vehicle.

Good! I believe this is exactly what I said they should do:

Quote
mikebw
...the driver is always responsible for maintaining control of the vehicle, so she should be charged with that.


[forums.macresource.com]
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Re: look ma' no hands?!.....the Utah Tesla crash - hands off confirmed.....
Posted by: rjmacs
Date: May 18, 2018 01:01PM
I don't think that the criterion for being an interim test pilot for the transition between manual and autonomous vehicle operation should be whether you can afford a Tesla.



rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future
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Re: look ma' no hands?!.....the Utah Tesla crash - hands off confirmed.....
Posted by: Racer X
Date: May 18, 2018 06:45PM
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't fix stupid.
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