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NTSB Releases Preliminary Report on Uber Crash in AZ
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: May 24, 2018 10:05AM
“According to data obtained from the self-driving system, the system first registered radar and LIDAR observations of the pedestrian about 6 seconds before impact, when the vehicle was traveling at 43 mph. As the vehicle and pedestrian paths converged, the self-driving system software classified the pedestrian as an unknown object, as a vehicle, and then as a bicycle with varying expectations of future travel path. At 1.3 seconds before impact, the self-driving system determined that an emergency braking maneuver was needed to mitigate a collision. According to Uber, emergency braking maneuvers are not enabled while the vehicle is under computer control, to reduce the potential for erratic vehicle behavior. The vehicle operator is relied on to intervene and take action. The system is not designed to alert the operator.”

[seekingalpha.com]

[www.ntsb.gov]




When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men except
by believing all possible evil of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

Perfection is the enemy of progress. -Winston Churchill

-An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

Mister, that's a ten-gallon hat on a twenty-gallon head.

I *love* SIGs. It's Glocks I hate.




Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/24/2018 10:10AM by RAMd®d.
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Re: NTSB Releases Preliminary Report on Uber Crash in AZ
Posted by: Spiff
Date: May 24, 2018 10:26AM
Whoops
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Re: NTSB Releases Preliminary Report on Uber Crash in AZ
Posted by: mikebw
Date: May 24, 2018 10:30AM
Good grief! Why not alert the operator? They certainly we not paying attention. But, I suppose 1.3 seconds might not have been enough for them to realize there was an alert, look up and decide if braking should be done or not.
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Re: NTSB Releases Preliminary Report on Uber Crash in AZ
Posted by: vision63
Date: May 24, 2018 10:36AM
I saw a guy get hit on his bike last Friday in San Francisco. Knocked him about 15 feet ahead. The driver stopped but the biker got up, checked his bike and walked away. He must be a cat.
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Re: NTSB Releases Preliminary Report on Uber Crash in AZ
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: May 24, 2018 10:41AM
But, I suppose 1.3 seconds might not have been enough for them to realize there was an alert, look up and decide if braking should be done or not.

Within that time frame, I don't think braking alone would have been sufficient. The driver would have to decide on braking and/or swerving.

What's Uber's protocol for a drive seeing a potential collision? Are they to wait for the car's warning or just take reasonable action to avoid the collision.




When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men except
by believing all possible evil of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

Perfection is the enemy of progress. -Winston Churchill

-An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

Mister, that's a ten-gallon hat on a twenty-gallon head.

I *love* SIGs. It's Glocks I hate.
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Re: NTSB Releases Preliminary Report on Uber Crash in AZ
Posted by: GGD
Date: May 24, 2018 10:54AM
Quote
mikebw
Good grief! Why not alert the operator? They certainly we not paying attention. But, I suppose 1.3 seconds might not have been enough for them to realize there was an alert, look up and decide if braking should be done or not.

Looks like the operator did react.

Quote

The self-driving system data showed that the vehicle operator intervened less than a second before impact by engaging the steering wheel. The vehicle speed at impact was 39 mph. The operator began braking less than a second after the impact. The data also showed that all aspects of the self-driving system were operating normally at the time of the crash, and that there were no faults or diagnostic messages.

And was monitoring the system, not using her cell phone.

Quote

The inward-facing video shows the vehicle operator glancing down toward the center of the vehicle several times before the crash. In a postcrash interview with NTSB investigators, the vehicle operator stated that she had been monitoring the self-driving system interface. The operator further stated that although her personal and business phones were in the vehicle, neither was in use until after the crash, when she called 911.

And Volvo's collision avoidance system was disabled.

Quote

The vehicle was factory equipped with several advanced driver assistance functions by Volvo Cars, the original manufacturer. The systems included a collision avoidance function with automatic emergency braking, known as City Safety, as well as functions for detecting driver alertness and road sign information. All these Volvo functions are disabled when the test vehicle is operated in computer control but are operational when the vehicle is operated in manual control.

That X shaped paved portion of the median looks like it's intended to direct pedestrians to the road to cross, and it also sounds like the no crossing signs are oriented so that you won't see them "facing the roadway", not facing the median.

Quote

In this area, northbound Mill Avenue is separated from southbound Mill Avenue by a center median containing trees, shrubs, and brick landscaping in the shape of an X. Four signs at the edges of the brick median, facing toward the roadway, warn pedestrians to use the crosswalk. The nearest crosswalk is at the intersection of Mill Avenue and Curry Road, about 360 feet north of where the crash occurred.

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Re: NTSB Releases Preliminary Report on Uber Crash in AZ
Posted by: Ombligo
Date: May 24, 2018 11:31AM
I can see lawyers involved in the system parameters.

If the system does not give any warning , then it is completely the drivers responsibility to monitor the road at all times (as they should).

If the system gives a warning, then a driver may assume they can be less alert and rely upon the warning. That means the system assumes a degree of responsibility and that creates a legal issue in a lawsuit.



“No persons are more frequently wrong, than those who will not admit they are wrong.”
-- François de La Rochefoucauld

"WE CALL BS!" -- Emma Gonzalez
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Re: NTSB Releases Preliminary Report on Uber Crash in AZ
Posted by: michaelb
Date: May 24, 2018 12:03PM
It is helpful to see that this was not a failure of the self driving system in any significant way, but a failure of the human operator and of Uber to properly set up and use these vehicles.

For those of us (maybe only a few of us) that speculated about how the pedestrian could have possibly walked out and straight into the path of the vehicle at night, I will say the report does mention "Toxicology test results for the pedestrian were positive for methamphetamine and marijuana". That in no way excuses Uber or the driver, but does make what happened more understandable to me (as someone who bikes and who walks at night).
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Re: NTSB Releases Preliminary Report on Uber Crash in AZ
Posted by: sekker
Date: May 24, 2018 12:06PM
In other words, the system worked as designed.

The human tried to intervene.

AND

This death should never had occurred if the system was designed properly.
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Re: NTSB Releases Preliminary Report on Uber Crash in AZ
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: May 24, 2018 12:14PM
The operator further stated that although her personal and business phones were in the vehicle, neither was in use until after the crash, when she called 911.

And was monitoring the system, not using her cell phone.

That was her statement. It may be true, but has yet to be confirmed by the NTSB.

The NTSB continues to gather information on the Uber self-driving system, the vehicle interface, and the driver’s personal and business cell phones.


Probably Cause

The information in this report is preliminary and will be supplemented or corrected during the course of the investigation.


About the alert at 1.3s:

At 1.3 seconds before impact, the self-driving system determined that an emergency braking maneuver was needed to mitigate a collision... The system is not designed to alert the operator.

So there's some 'collision imminent' alert but no 'heads up!' alert? It's not like one is in a fighter cockpit with a dozen alarms going off.




When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men except
by believing all possible evil of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

Perfection is the enemy of progress. -Winston Churchill

-An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

Mister, that's a ten-gallon hat on a twenty-gallon head.

I *love* SIGs. It's Glocks I hate.




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/24/2018 12:14PM by RAMd®d.
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Re: NTSB Releases Preliminary Report on Uber Crash in AZ
Posted by: GGD
Date: May 24, 2018 12:20PM
Quote
sekker
In other words, the system worked as designed.

The human tried to intervene.

AND

This death should never had occurred if the system was designed properly.

And we don't know what would have happened if this was just the stock Volvo with it's automatic braking system enabled.

In this specific case, did the self driving system make the car safer?
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Re: NTSB Releases Preliminary Report on Uber Crash in AZ
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: May 24, 2018 12:50PM
The human tried to intervene.

Had the human been paying attention to the road, would the collision have occurred? I don't think so.

Similarly, had the human been driving a Honda Civic or Toyota Corolla, or any car with no additional collision avoidance gear, would the collision have occurred. I don't think so.


This death should never had occurred if the system was designed properly.

No kidding. That's certainly the hope of every car AI systems designer. Designing it to handle more than one or all scenarios is the problem, though, isn't it. More to the point, the system was being tested. That's why there was a human onboard in the first place.


The NTSB has noted the pedestrian's location and clothing, and the bike's reflectors not facing the oncoming vehicle. It'll be interesting to see how that plays in their determination of probably cause.

Whether on a cellphone, reading a book, watching TV, or monitoring the car's systems, doing so is distracted driving. Watching the video seems to confirm this driver as being distracted.




When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men except
by believing all possible evil of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

Perfection is the enemy of progress. -Winston Churchill

-An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

Mister, that's a ten-gallon hat on a twenty-gallon head.

I *love* SIGs. It's Glocks I hate.
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Re: NTSB Releases Preliminary Report on Uber Crash in AZ
Posted by: GGD
Date: May 24, 2018 01:12PM
Quote
RAMd®d
This death should never had occurred if the system was designed properly.

No kidding. That's certainly the hope of every car AI systems designer. Designing it to handle more than one or all scenarios is the problem, though, isn't it. More to the point, the system was being tested. That's why there was a human onboard in the first place.


The NTSB has noted the pedestrian's location and clothing, and the bike's reflectors not facing the oncoming vehicle. It'll be interesting to see how that plays in their determination of probably cause.

Whether on a cellphone, reading a book, watching TV, or monitoring the car's systems, doing so is distracted driving. Watching the video seems to confirm this driver as being distracted.

This distraction was by design, Uber uses a single person to both monitor the road and monitor the car's systems. Other self driving efforts use two people.

[jalopnik.com]
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Re: NTSB Releases Preliminary Report on Uber Crash in AZ
Posted by: michaelb
Date: May 24, 2018 02:08PM
The reporting on this report is confusing, because it is not clear if the Uber self driving system was intended to "normally" brake during the period from detection at 6 secs to emergency braking at 1.3 secs. Was the Uber system intended to brake at all for unexplained objects or was that left to the human operator? It doesn't matter how it classified the object if it was not going to brake for any object and was operating on the assumption that the operator would take control.
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Re: NTSB Releases Preliminary Report on Uber Crash in AZ
Posted by: DeusxMac
Date: May 24, 2018 02:13PM
Quote
GGD
That X shaped paved portion of the median looks like it's intended to direct pedestrians to the road to cross...

THIS!

A walkway with four paths leading to streets, none of which appear to be actually set up for crossing those streets; an accident waiting to happen - self-driving vehicle or not.
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Re: NTSB Releases Preliminary Report on Uber Crash in AZ
Posted by: Speedy
Date: May 24, 2018 03:30PM
Quote
DeusxMac
Quote
GGD
That X shaped paved portion of the median looks like it's intended to direct pedestrians to the road to cross...

THIS!

A walkway with four paths leading to streets, none of which appear to be actually set up for crossing those streets; an accident waiting to happen - self-driving vehicle or not.

Looks like these are for lane diversion during any construction and road closure left for future use.



Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.
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Re: NTSB Releases Preliminary Report on Uber Crash in AZ
Posted by: DeusxMac
Date: May 24, 2018 03:50PM
Quote
Speedy
Quote
DeusxMac
Quote
GGD
That X shaped paved portion of the median looks like it's intended to direct pedestrians to the road to cross...

THIS!

A walkway with four paths leading to streets, none of which appear to be actually set up for crossing those streets; an accident waiting to happen - self-driving vehicle or not.

Looks like these are for lane diversion during any construction and road closure left for future use.

Perhaps that was the intention, but "brick landscaping in the shape of an X" would look like a pedestrian walkway to the virtually anyone encountering/walking on them.
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Re: NTSB Releases Preliminary Report on Uber Crash in AZ
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: May 24, 2018 08:19PM
This distraction was by design, Uber uses a single person to both monitor the road and monitor the car's systems. Other self driving efforts use two people.

Irrelevant, except in a civil lawsuit.

The design doesn't relieve the onboard human of the duty to preserve life by avoiding collisions. That's why they're there in the first place. It's no different that texting while driving.

At this point, we still don't know 'monitoring the system' was the reason the driver didn't see the pedestrian sooner.

I haven't seen anything yet that shows this was a non-preventable accident. Regardless of what anti-collision functions were enabled (if any) and what were disabled, I'm currently of the belief the pedestrian wouldn't have been struck if the driver had been paying attention.

The possibility of the pedestrian being impaired doesn't relieve the driver of their responsibilities. I'll go out on a limb and assume that the driver had to have a valid AZ driver's license and knew the state traffic laws.

I look forward to the investigation updates.




When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men except
by believing all possible evil of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

Perfection is the enemy of progress. -Winston Churchill

-An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

Mister, that's a ten-gallon hat on a twenty-gallon head.

I *love* SIGs. It's Glocks I hate.
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Re: NTSB Releases Preliminary Report on Uber Crash in AZ
Posted by: Racer X
Date: May 24, 2018 08:42PM
"I haven't seen anything yet that shows this was a non-preventable accident. Regardless of what anti-collision functions were enabled (if any) and what were disabled, I'm currently of the belief the pedestrian wouldn't have been struck if the driver had been paying attention."

I completely agree. If a plane or ship is on auto-pilot, the captain is still 100% responsible to do whatever they need to do to not hit anything.
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Re: NTSB Releases Preliminary Report on Uber Crash in AZ
Posted by: GGD
Date: May 24, 2018 09:07PM
Quote
Racer X
"I haven't seen anything yet that shows this was a non-preventable accident. Regardless of what anti-collision functions were enabled (if any) and what were disabled, I'm currently of the belief the pedestrian wouldn't have been struck if the driver had been paying attention."

I completely agree. If a plane or ship is on auto-pilot, the captain is still 100% responsible to do whatever they need to do to not hit anything.

Who's responsible if one of SpaceX's drone ships gets into an accident?
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Re: NTSB Releases Preliminary Report on Uber Crash in AZ
Posted by: C(-)ris
Date: May 24, 2018 09:45PM
Quote
GGD
Quote
Racer X
"I haven't seen anything yet that shows this was a non-preventable accident. Regardless of what anti-collision functions were enabled (if any) and what were disabled, I'm currently of the belief the pedestrian wouldn't have been struck if the driver had been paying attention."

I completely agree. If a plane or ship is on auto-pilot, the captain is still 100% responsible to do whatever they need to do to not hit anything.

Who's responsible if one of SpaceX's drone ships gets into an accident?

Corporations aren't people. No responsibility criminally. Just Civil lawsuits.



C(-)ris
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Re: NTSB Releases Preliminary Report on Uber Crash in AZ
Posted by: DeusxMac
Date: May 25, 2018 07:54AM
Quote
GGD
Quote
Racer X
"I haven't seen anything yet that shows this was a non-preventable accident. Regardless of what anti-collision functions were enabled (if any) and what were disabled, I'm currently of the belief the pedestrian wouldn't have been struck if the driver had been paying attention."

I completely agree. If a plane or ship is on auto-pilot, the captain is still 100% responsible to do whatever they need to do to not hit anything.

Who's responsible if one of SpaceX's drone ships gets into an accident?

Merely being in an accident doesn’t inherently assign “responsibility”.

If the SpaceX drone ship is maintaining position and adhering to all international nautical rules and another vessel collides with it, the other vessel is responsible for the accident.

If a pedestrian steps out in front of a moving car such that the car’s driver - human or automated - is incapable of avoiding hitting them, then the driver would not be responsible.
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Re: NTSB Releases Preliminary Report on Uber Crash in AZ
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: May 25, 2018 02:37PM
If a pedestrian steps out in front of a moving car such that the car’s driver - human or automated - is incapable of avoiding hitting them, then the driver would not be responsible.

Agreed.

But I'm inclined to think that wasn't the case. 1.3s is very little time for the average person to perceive a hazard and react to avoid a collision, not that it isn't possible. ~6 seconds at 43mph is a pretty fair amount of time to make a decision for a more successful outcome.

The question seems to remain as to what the driver could/should have seen had she been paying attention. The onboard video implies that she came out of near total darkness, dressed in dark clothing. Based on that video alone, the collision would seem unavoidable, without considering any other relevant factors.

Other video, subsequently shot outside investigation, purports to show the area surrounding the POI as wide and well lit. What is important are the visibility and lighting conditions on the night in question.

My concern is not strictly whether or not the car performed as it should. It's how a life ended.




When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men except
by believing all possible evil of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

Perfection is the enemy of progress. -Winston Churchill

-An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

Mister, that's a ten-gallon hat on a twenty-gallon head.

I *love* SIGs. It's Glocks I hate.
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