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Thai Soccer Team and Their Coach Found Alive In Cave
Posted by: maco
Date: July 02, 2018 01:46PM
Video shows moment 12 boys and their soccer coach were found alive in cave
[abcnews.go.com]

Thai official says all 12 boys and their coach found alive in cave where they went missing
[www.latimes.com]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/02/2018 01:48PM by maco.
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Re: Thai Soccer Team and Their Coach Found Alive In Cave
Posted by: 3d
Date: July 02, 2018 01:50PM
Tom Hanks is already cast in the movie adaptation.
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Re: Thai Soccer Team and Their Coach Found Alive In Cave
Posted by: $tevie
Date: July 02, 2018 01:52PM
I never dreamed this would have a happy ending. Such grand and glorious news!!



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Re: Thai Soccer Team and Their Coach Found Alive In Cave
Posted by: space-time
Date: July 02, 2018 01:52PM
saw that in the news earlier today, I didn't check the details. I am at work and quite busy. Will watch vide tonight. Are they still in cave or already out? Was the US team involved, or this was a local achievement?
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Re: Thai Soccer Team and Their Coach Found Alive In Cave
Posted by: cbelt3
Date: July 02, 2018 01:56PM
WOW ! That's a wonderful accomplishment and an amazing rescue !
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Re: Thai Soccer Team and Their Coach Found Alive In Cave
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: July 02, 2018 02:41PM
I never dreamed this would have a happy ending. Such grand and glorious news!!

Absolutely.

I try never to think about the worst. Hope can be a terrific motivator, and I always think 'rescue' before 'recovery' and try never to think 'recovery' until it's a fact.



Since the article mentions Thai SEALS, I wonder if they were using SCUBA or rebreathers while navigating the caves. Tanks take up a lot of room compared to a Draeger Mk 25 or similar.




When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men
except by believing all possible evil
of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

-An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

Mister, that's a ten-gallon hat on a twenty-gallon head.

I *love* Sigs. It's Glocks I hate.
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Re: Thai Soccer Team and Their Coach Found Alive In Cave
Posted by: cbelt3
Date: July 02, 2018 03:25PM
FWIW... getting them OUT will be a serious endeavor.
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Re: Thai Soccer Team and Their Coach Found Alive In Cave
Posted by: NewtonMP2100
Date: July 02, 2018 05:15PM
.....they sure have a lot of splunk.......



____________________________________________________

I reject your reality and substitute my own!
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Re: Thai Soccer Team and Their Coach Found Alive In Cave
Posted by: maco
Date: July 02, 2018 05:40PM
Quote
space-time
saw that in the news earlier today, I didn't check the details. I am at work and quite busy. Will watch vide tonight. Are they still in cave or already out? Was the US team involved, or this was a local achievement?

They are still in the cave. They want to stabilize them before they attempt to move them. They were found by two British divers.

[www.theguardian.com]
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Re: Thai Soccer Team and Their Coach Found Alive In Cave
Posted by: maco
Date: July 02, 2018 05:43PM
Quote
cbelt3
FWIW... getting them OUT will be a serious endeavor.

"In a complex and potentially dangerous operation, rescue workers will now have to assess how to bring the group several miles through the cave, which is still partially submerged and is linked by tight passages.

Anmar Mirza, a leading American cave rescue expert, told Associated Press many challenges remained. He said the primary decision was whether to try to evacuate the boys and their coach or to feed supplies through to them.

“Supplying them on site may face challenges depending on how difficult the dives are,” said Mirza, the coordinator of the US National Cave Rescue Commission.

“Trying to take non-divers through a cave is one of the most dangerous situations possible, even if the dives are relatively easy. That also begets the question: if the dives are difficult then supply will be difficult, but the risk of trying to dive them out is also exponentially greater.”"

[www.theguardian.com]
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Re: Thai Soccer Team and Their Coach Found Alive In Cave
Posted by: Racer X
Date: July 02, 2018 06:28PM
Quote
RAMd®d
I never dreamed this would have a happy ending. Such grand and glorious news!!

Absolutely.

I try never to think about the worst. Hope can be a terrific motivator, and I always think 'rescue' before 'recovery' and try never to think 'recovery' until it's a fact.



Since the article mentions Thai SEALS, I wonder if they were using SCUBA or rebreathers while navigating the caves. Tanks take up a lot of room compared to a Draeger Mk 25 or similar.

That would be my guess. I was wondering this too actually.
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Re: Thai Soccer Team and Their Coach Found Alive In Cave
Posted by: ztirffritz
Date: July 02, 2018 06:37PM
Last I heard they were trying to get some supplies to them then trying to pump water out of the caves to get them out.



**************************************
MacResource User Map: [www.zeemaps.com]#
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Re: Thai Soccer Team and Their Coach Found Alive In Cave
Posted by: Ombligo
Date: July 02, 2018 09:41PM
Quote
RAMd®d
Since the article mentions Thai SEALS, I wonder if they were using SCUBA or rebreathers while navigating the caves. Tanks take up a lot of room compared to a Draeger Mk 25 or similar.

As the resident Cave Diver, I would expect military divers to be on rebreathers, though most likely not Draegers. Those are semi-closed circuit (which emits occasional bubbles) and military generally wants a fully closed system (no bubbles at all). However, the depths and distances could be done with open circuit tanks. Utilizing staging bottles and a couple 2400psi rated LP104 steel tanks overpumped to 3600psi (routine in the cave community) would be the ticket.

Most cave exploration has been done on open circuit with the setup I describe above. The Wakulla system in Florida exceeds the Thai cave in depth and distance, it was done open circuit.

As for getting them out, that is going to be a trick. I'd have to know a great deal more about the system before I could even begin to think one way or the other. However, the danger of a kid panicking or holding their breath at some point is a real danger. My initial thought would be to keep them there, bring in camping supplies and lighting until conditions improve. However the rainy season just began, so six months is a very long time. I don't begin to know the answer.



“No persons are more frequently wrong, than those who will not admit they are wrong.”
-- François de La Rochefoucauld

"WE CALL BS!" -- Emma Gonzalez
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Re: Thai Soccer Team and Their Coach Found Alive In Cave
Posted by: GGD
Date: July 02, 2018 09:53PM
Quote
Ombligo
My initial thought would be to keep them there, bring in camping supplies and lighting until conditions improve. However the rainy season just began, so six months is a very long time. I don't begin to know the answer.

One report I read said that they were going to bring them a 4 month supply of food, so it sounds like they're preparing for a long wait.

I don't know how big a 4 month supply for 13 people is, but I suspect that it's larger than the people themselves, and might be quite an effort just getting it to them.

They should probably be thinking of setting up some sort of two-way communication system so that they can talk with loved ones during their wait.
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Re: Thai Soccer Team and Their Coach Found Alive In Cave
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: July 03, 2018 03:44AM
Those are semi-closed circuit (which emits occasional bubbles) and military generally wants a fully closed system (no bubbles at all).

The Mk 25 is closed circuit and currently used by US Navy SEALs. You may be thinking of another Draeger, the Dophin, which I believe is semi-closed.




When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men
except by believing all possible evil
of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

-An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

Mister, that's a ten-gallon hat on a twenty-gallon head.

I *love* Sigs. It's Glocks I hate.
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Re: Thai Soccer Team and Their Coach Found Alive In Cave
Posted by: Ombligo
Date: July 03, 2018 06:57AM
Quote
RAMd®d
Those are semi-closed circuit (which emits occasional bubbles) and military generally wants a fully closed system (no bubbles at all).

The Mk 25 is closed circuit and currently used by US Navy SEALs. You may be thinking of another Draeger, the Dophin, which I believe is semi-closed.

Correct, my bad.

The photos I saw of the rescue team showed open circuit tanks. What surprised me was the tanks shown were 80cf aluminum with K-valves. Those are the standard divetank everyone sees for recreational diving. They are very inefficent for penetration diving. Each tank holds 80cf of gas (of which a cavediver can use only 27cf due to safety margins) - this compared to a LP104 tank pumped to 3600psi, which carries twice that amount.

Based on the distance into the cave, using aluminum 80's would require multiple stage setups (that means switching tanks while underwater) It is not difficult to someone trained and experienced, but I wouldn't want to try it with a new diver.

Further the K-valve is easily dislodged with a bump against a cave wall; that is something very likely to occur with a new diver who has not developed buoyancy skills. The standard would be a DIN valve, which is almost impossible to dislodge.

A rebreather overcomes some of those issues, but introduces new ones that are potentially more dangerous. As an example, if any passage of the cave is under 20-feet in depth the rebreather may not operate (a trained diver died in North Florida when that occurred).

Given everything I've seen, I would tell the kids to enjoy their MRE's for a few months until the passages clear.

I also hope they make a plan for removing the adult coach away from the parents, he is not likely to be very popular.



“No persons are more frequently wrong, than those who will not admit they are wrong.”
-- François de La Rochefoucauld

"WE CALL BS!" -- Emma Gonzalez
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Re: Thai Soccer Team and Their Coach Found Alive In Cave
Posted by: Janit
Date: July 03, 2018 07:41AM
Quote
Ombligo
I also hope they make a plan for removing the adult coach away from the parents, he is not likely to be very popular.

No doubt. Goes to show how important it is for people to develop judgment beyond the formal "rules" they are given. These caves are a popular recreational spot, and the group had been there many times before.

There is a sign posted at the front telling people to stay out during the months of July through November. Clearly the rains came earlier than expected. Was the rain storm that flooded the cave a single surprise event that initiated the monsoon early, or were there warning signs that the monsoon was already threatening?

Some will say it was incumbent on the coach to understand local conditions well enough to judge the situation. I don't know the local conditions well enough to say either way.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/05/2018 06:13AM by Janit.
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Re: Thai Soccer Team and Their Coach Found Alive In Cave
Posted by: 3d
Date: July 03, 2018 08:10AM
Are signed parental permission slips for field trips a crazy American thing?
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Re: Thai Soccer Team and Their Coach Found Alive In Cave
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: July 03, 2018 01:12PM
Some will say it was incumbent on the coach to understand local conditions well enough to judge the situation.

Yes, most parents would/will want someone to blame, especially if there's any physical or psychological harm, because 'anybody with a lick of common sense would have known...'


I don't know the local conditions well enough to say either way.

Likewise.

Are the local conditions typically capricious or was the early arrival completely unexpected? Even if the latter, I expect the coach will take some undeserved heat. I have no idea what's what, but just hope everybody gets out OK.



Further the K-valve is easily dislodged with a bump against a cave wall; that is something very likely to occur with a new diver who has not developed buoyancy skills.

I didn't know there were 80cf bottles. I saw an older documentary on underwater cave diving and it looked like the divers had 72s at the time, no rebreathers. Merely watching the video severely creeped me out. I'm not claustrophobic by nature (lol) ok, maybe by nature. These guys were swimming (if you could rightly call it that) threw some very narrow passages. I could feel myself becoming very anxious, thinking 'what if...'.

I've done a very little SCUBA, but with people who really knew what they were doing. I cannot for the life of me see myself swimming into a cave. I'd sooner jump out of a perfectly good airplane.

Hat's off to you, Om.




When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men
except by believing all possible evil
of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

-An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

Mister, that's a ten-gallon hat on a twenty-gallon head.

I *love* Sigs. It's Glocks I hate.
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Re: Thai Soccer Team and Their Coach Found Alive In Cave
Posted by: Ombligo
Date: July 03, 2018 08:54PM
Quote
RAMd®d
I saw an older documentary on underwater cave diving and it looked like the divers had 72s at the time, no rebreathers. Merely watching the video severely creeped me out. I'm not claustrophobic by nature (lol) ok, maybe by nature. These guys were swimming (if you could rightly call it that) threw some very narrow passages. I could feel myself becoming very anxious, thinking 'what if...'.

To be fair, documentaries tend to look at the extreme. I've seen some and freely said, no @#$%& way. Most cave diving is not done in those tight restricted conditions. Most of the popular caves (but not all) are pretty large. My favorite North Florida Cave is the Peacock System, those passages are generally 15-20 feet in circumference.

Here is an image of Peacock shot by Jill Heinerth


But some can be much larger, like Dipolder (which is about 40 miles from me)




“No persons are more frequently wrong, than those who will not admit they are wrong.”
-- François de La Rochefoucauld

"WE CALL BS!" -- Emma Gonzalez
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