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Boys trapped in cave
Posted by: samintx
Date: July 04, 2018 09:00AM
I heard they entered via a small hole. Egan no wonder rescue is so difficult. And learning to swim under those conditions RollingEyesSmiley5

Do I see a movie here? If it turns out better than it is looking now.
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Re: Boys trapped in cave
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: July 04, 2018 12:52PM
More information on the difficulty of the rescue.

I had no idea, beyond kids who aren't divers, trying to navigate underwater.




When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men
except by believing all possible evil
of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

-An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

Mister, that's a ten-gallon hat on a twenty-gallon head.

I *love* Sigs. It's Glocks I hate.
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Re: Boys trapped in cave
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: July 04, 2018 01:08PM
“Worst case scenario is they have to dive them out,” said Pat Moret, a rescue consultant told CNN on Monday.

“It won’t be anything like diving that most people recognize. It will be diving in what is effectively muddy water, possibly fast flowing, with no sense of direction,” Moret said. “You can’t tell what’s up, down, sideways.”


I really hope they can pull this rescue off, completely successfully.




When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men
except by believing all possible evil
of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

-An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

Mister, that's a ten-gallon hat on a twenty-gallon head.

I *love* Sigs. It's Glocks I hate.
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Re: Boys trapped in cave
Posted by: hal
Date: July 04, 2018 01:23PM
A diving expert friend of mine says that there is diving and there is diving in a cave - two TOTALLY DIFFERENT things. Cave diving is only for the most expert divers AND they must have great control over very scary conditions and trust in their knowledge and skill. Many expert divers find that they are unable to handle cave diving.
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Re: Boys trapped in cave
Posted by: 3d
Date: July 04, 2018 02:00PM
A +2 mile cave dive through tight spaces is difficult for experienced divers. Some of these boys could barely stand because of muscle atrophy at this point. There will be a life and death decision to make for these boys in the next few days. What's with the eye-roll emoticon? There's no need for that.
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Re: Boys trapped in cave
Posted by: Janit
Date: July 04, 2018 02:14PM
Quote
3d
A +2 mile cave dive through tight spaces is difficult for experienced divers. Some of these boys could barely stand because of muscle atrophy at this point. There will be a life and death decision to make for these boys in the next few days. What's with the eye-roll emoticon? There's no need for that.

I interpreted the eye-roll as a criticism of the people who fail to understand the difficulty of the rescue and who want to demand impossible things of everyone involved. NOT as a criticism of the worry and drama surrounding the situation.
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Re: Boys trapped in cave
Posted by: Ombligo
Date: July 04, 2018 03:19PM
As I mentioned in a previous thread, I have been a fully certified cave diver for nearly 25 years. During that time, I have been in uncomfortable spots. I have lost more than one friend to a cave diving accident. These were among the best in the world, but they were pushing the envelope and lost. From everything I've read and heard about this cave, it is a very advance and dangerous system. No one is going into that cave without a very good reason (like rescuing a group of young boys)

It would literally be a last ditch move to swim the kids out. Frankly if I was to attempt it (and I am not a rescue/recovery expert) - I would the sedate the boy into unconsciousness, put a kirby helmet on him (hardhat, looks like space helmet, no need for a breathing regulator in the mouth), and treat it like a body recovery. Just push him though with no regard to comfort - a singular goal of getting the body out.

However, what I have not heard is which direction the water flow is going, but I expect it is a siphon (water flowing into the cave, not out). That makes a very difficult and dangerous dive. No cave diver wants to do a siphon dive. It makes gas (air) management very difficult.

The water is essentially mud - even with a light you may see 12 inches. (Understand those boys have likely been without light for days before being found. A cave is darker than the darkest night. You can see nothing, not even your hand touching your face, you feel it but can't see it. Caves are as close to be blind as there is).

The public does not understand the level of difficulties that are faced in this situation. If they insist on swimming the boys out, they better be prepared to lose at least one(and likely more).

My far removed from the situation advice - Tell the boys to enjoy MRE's for the next 4-6 months.

If anyone has questions regarding cave diving, ask me. I'll tell you what I know with no BS. If I don't know, I'll admit it.


QUICK EDIT - here is a link to the Cavediver.net forum discussion. There isn't much said there (cave divers tend to keep their mouths shut and talk privately, not publicly). But there are some decent links there to articles and some background of the rescue divers.

The military divers are NOT cave certified and diving recreational style rigs.



“No persons are more frequently wrong, than those who will not admit they are wrong.”
-- François de La Rochefoucauld

"WE CALL BS!" -- Emma Gonzalez



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/04/2018 03:36PM by Ombligo.
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Re: Boys trapped in cave
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: July 04, 2018 03:37PM
NOT as a criticism of the worry and drama surrounding the situation.


Agreed.


What's with the eye-roll emoticon? There's no need for that.

I saw it as an OMG to the conditions the rescuers face. I think the emoticon meant something different to her than you.

sam's been around here a long time, and she's the one of the last people I'd consider capable of a mean-sprited post.




When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men
except by believing all possible evil
of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

-An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

Mister, that's a ten-gallon hat on a twenty-gallon head.

I *love* Sigs. It's Glocks I hate.
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Re: Boys trapped in cave
Posted by: Dennis S
Date: July 04, 2018 05:11PM
Here is a graphic that may be helpful:

[static.standard.co.uk]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/04/2018 05:13PM by Dennis S.
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Re: Boys trapped in cave
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: July 04, 2018 08:40PM
That graphic both clears things up and shows the direness of the entire situation.

I briefly wondered if a hole could be drilled from about but dismissed the idea when I read they were about 2Km underground.

At the potential digging point indicated by the graphic, it looks to be over .25mi of digging.

Even without water/flooding, that almost 4mi of hiking in the caves. I have to wonder what the coach was thinking.

Fear is the mind-killer. If these kids have to SCUBA out... I can't begin to imagine how they'll handle it.

Apparently there's plenty of air and no worries of CO2 buildup.

I hope.




When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men
except by believing all possible evil
of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

-An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

Mister, that's a ten-gallon hat on a twenty-gallon head.

I *love* Sigs. It's Glocks I hate.
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Re: Boys trapped in cave
Posted by: GGD
Date: July 04, 2018 09:17PM
I'm also wondering if the "waiting it out" option is viable.

This was just the very beginning of the rainy season. With more sustained rain, will the water level rise to fill the area where they're currently staying.

They're in an air pocket, how long will that air remain breathable.
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Re: Boys trapped in cave
Posted by: space-time
Date: July 04, 2018 09:43PM
I have to wonder what the coach was thinking.

is there more info about this? why did they go into the case in the first place (this was a SOCCER team, right, not a cave diving team). WTF was the coach thinking?
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Re: Boys trapped in cave
Posted by: Blankity Blank
Date: July 04, 2018 11:20PM
Quote
Ombligo
As I mentioned in a previous thread, I have been a fully certified cave diver for nearly 25 years. During that time, I have been in uncomfortable spots. I have lost more than one friend to a cave diving accident. These were among the best in the world, but they were pushing the envelope and lost. From everything I've read and heard about this cave, it is a very advance and dangerous system. No one is going into that cave without a very good reason (like rescuing a group of young boys).
I’ve read for a long time how cave diving is just about as risky as it gets.

The idea of treating it as a ‘recovery’ versus a ‘rescue’ is very intriguing. I get the impression that, particularly under circumstances like these, if they were to try and have the kids swim out under their own volition, if even one of them were to panic at the wrong time they could easily endanger everyone’s life. Is that correct?
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Re: Boys trapped in cave
Posted by: Speedy
Date: July 04, 2018 11:54PM
I understand they are using huge pumps. Once the pumps get a handle on things the water level will drop.



Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.
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Re: Boys trapped in cave
Posted by: Sarcany
Date: July 05, 2018 12:20AM
Quote
space-time
I have to wonder what the coach was thinking.

is there more info about this? why did they go into the case in the first place (this was a SOCCER team, right, not a cave diving team). WTF was the coach thinking?

When dry, it's a tourist attraction. During the rainy season (June to October), it's supposed to be off-limits.

It's not clear whether they were cleared by an authority to enter the cave when it was dangerous, or ignored warnings, or there were no warnings, or maybe they just went in without checking in with someone first.

When they entered, they had to cross a peaceful stretch with few inches of water, maybe a bit more, from a nearby stream. Then there was a flash-flood that raised the stream. The region has since been battered with record rainfall and that's made it worse.

Having experienced a couple of flash floods myself, I can tell you that unless you know the territory pretty intimately you're not going to be able to predict one. Happens *after* the rain. Sometimes days after the rain. One moment, you're walking a well-worn trail and the next you're struggling to get out of a fast-moving river and wondering where all the fish came from. It probably looked pretty safe when they entered.







Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/05/2018 12:25AM by Sarcany.
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Re: Boys trapped in cave
Posted by: Ombligo
Date: July 05, 2018 05:42AM
Quote
Blankity Blank
I get the impression that, particularly under circumstances like these, if they were to try and have the kids swim out under their own volition, if even one of them were to panic at the wrong time they could easily endanger everyone’s life. Is that correct?

potentially. I doubt they would bring them through as a mass exodus. Far more likely is to have one at a time moved through the flooded sections (sumps). The hardest portion of the journey is near where the boys are, so it would be faced very early on. That section is what is termed "no mount," the passage is so narrow that a diver can not wear tanks. To traverse it, a diver removes the tank and either pushes it in front (preferred) or pulls it behind them. Long regulator hoses (5'-7') are used between the tank and diver. In this instance, I would assume a hose long enough to go through the entire sump would be used for the boys. This is an extremely advance technique. I do not go into a system requiring any no mount diving, it is beyond my comfort zone.

As I said, the boys would most likely be moved through in stages, one-by-one. However, they will be scared. What happens if one panics and refuses to move onward? What happens if the first attempt fails and the first boy drowns? would the others panic or refuse to go onward? no one knows.

Some boys do not know how to swim. That really isn't a major issue. Oddly, swimming is not a requirement for diver certification under some agencies. While I personally consider that to be reckless, I can see the logic. Swimming is generally about keeping your head above water, something that is not important in diving.

I've been trying to come up with an analogy of what is expected of these boys. The best I've had so far is teaching a toddler to run a steeplechase.

Diving is not inherently difficult. I like to joke that the basics are easy - breath in, breath out, repeat. Cave Diving is all about the small details, mess up any of those and you may die. I dove for 15 years before I began training for caves. That training took three years to get my Full Cave Certification. That was in 1996, yet even today I know my limits and there are many advance aspects of the activity that I won't consider (like the before mentioned no mounting). These boys are being asked to learn in a week what took me three decades.



“No persons are more frequently wrong, than those who will not admit they are wrong.”
-- François de La Rochefoucauld

"WE CALL BS!" -- Emma Gonzalez
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Re: Boys trapped in cave
Posted by: Ombligo
Date: July 05, 2018 05:54AM
Quote
Speedy
I understand they are using huge pumps. Once the pumps get a handle on things the water level will drop.

The rain subsided and the pumps are drawing the water level down at a rate of 1.5cm an hour (5/8th of an inch). So it drops just over a foot a day.

However heavy rain is forecast for this weekend, the Thai authorities have acknowledged that the rain would overwhelm the pumps and water levels would rise again. Once the monsoons began (which could be this weekend), there is no chance that pumping will have any effect.

My guess -if the are not out by Saturday (Sunday for us due to the dateline), they will be there for the long haul. Conditions are only going to get worse until they improve in a few months.



“No persons are more frequently wrong, than those who will not admit they are wrong.”
-- François de La Rochefoucauld

"WE CALL BS!" -- Emma Gonzalez
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Re: Boys trapped in cave
Posted by: Janit
Date: July 05, 2018 06:41AM
Quote
Sarcany
When dry, it's a tourist attraction. During the rainy season (June to October), it's supposed to be off-limits.

It's not clear whether they were cleared by an authority to enter the cave when it was dangerous, or ignored warnings, or there were no warnings, or maybe they just went in without checking in with someone first.

When they entered, they had to cross a peaceful stretch with few inches of water, maybe a bit more, from a nearby stream. Then there was a flash-flood that raised the stream. The region has since been battered with record rainfall and that's made it worse.

Having experienced a couple of flash floods myself, I can tell you that unless you know the territory pretty intimately you're not going to be able to predict one. Happens *after* the rain. Sometimes days after the rain. One moment, you're walking a well-worn trail and the next you're struggling to get out of a fast-moving river and wondering where all the fish came from. It probably looked pretty safe when they entered.

Here is the sign posted at the entrance:



More on the activities of the team:

[www.chicagotribune.com]

Quote

The members of the Wild Boars are a team both on and off the soccer field, traveling to competitions, cycling mountain roads and swimming in waterfalls together. Now, 12 of the boys and their coach are lost, together, in a flooded cave in northern Thailand.

The boys, ranging in age from 11 to 16 and hailing from schools across Chiang Rai province's northern reaches, have been missing since they entered the sprawling Tham Luang Nang Non cave on Saturday afternoon, after a morning intrasquad match on a nearby field.

Leading the way as always was Ekapol "Aek" Chanthawong, their 25-year-old coach.

"Coach Aek is very dedicated to the team," said Noppadon Kanthawong, whose 13-year-old son plays on the Wild Boars but decided to skip Saturday's cave trip. "He would be there at the field waiting for kids to show up after school. It is a great way to keep healthy, away from screens and have friends. I can tell that they are very close to each other."

........

Officials said it wasn't the first time some of the soccer players had been inside the cave.

"The kids have been in the cave before, but they didn't think that going in at this time would be that dangerous," said Chote Narin, an officer at Mae Sai district police station.

Coach Ekapol's Facebook page is packed with photos and video of him and what appear to be members of his team practicing, cycling the area's mountain roads and inner tubing on a river.

A post from December 2016 reads: "Special training before the competition. Tham Luang Nang Non." Attached are 10 photos from inside the cave of boys in soccer uniforms smiling and posing for photos, lit by the beam of a flashlight.

The constant excursions, however, had become an issue for Thinnakorn Boonpiam, whose 13-year-old son, Mongkol, is among those missing. He said his son would regularly come home as late as 9 p.m., sometimes joining his coach and teammates on adventures that included swimming in waterfalls and riding their bicycles into Myanmar.

"I have asked my son to leave the team several times, but he wouldn't," Thinnakorn said. "I suppose he enjoys these activities."

While he said he was sure the coach was "a great person," he still felt his son was too young to be going on such trips with just one adult.

.......



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/05/2018 06:42AM by Janit.
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Re: Boys trapped in cave
Posted by: space-time
Date: July 05, 2018 07:46AM
Ombligo, please forgive me if I confuse you with someone else, but aren't you the one who lots an arm in a freaking accident as a toddler? So not only you manage to live a pretty normal life with only one arm, but you are doing cave diving? How do you manage to handle all that gear with only one hand?

I am beyond amazed.
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Re: Boys trapped in cave
Posted by: Ombligo
Date: July 05, 2018 08:34AM
Quote
space-time
Ombligo, please forgive me if I confuse you with someone else, but aren't you the one who lots an arm in a freaking accident as a toddler? So not only you manage to live a pretty normal life with only one arm, but you are doing cave diving? How do you manage to handle all that gear with only one hand?

I am beyond amazed.

That's me.

The last I checked (which was years ago), I am the only one-armed cave diver in the world. For cave certification, each applicant is discussed by the licensing committee. They were skeptical of me due to my missing arm. My instructor went to bat for me, told them that I did better than the other two in my training group - they were both professional divers.

As for how I handle my gear, the main adaptation I made was I do not generally backmount my tanks. I use a technique called sidemounting. That means I wear the tanks along my sides with the valves coming out near my armpits. That gives me easy access to the valves for air management. With backmount I have a hard time reaching the valve over my right shoulder.

Here is the difference --
Backmount Rig


Sidemount Rig




“No persons are more frequently wrong, than those who will not admit they are wrong.”
-- François de La Rochefoucauld

"WE CALL BS!" -- Emma Gonzalez
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Re: Boys trapped in cave
Posted by: space-time
Date: July 05, 2018 09:19AM
Very very impressive. Thanks for sharing.
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Re: Boys trapped in cave
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: July 05, 2018 01:23PM
Here is the sign posted at the entrance:

Not to MMQB the coach (at least on his timing) I would've been too paranoid to go in at that time. Maybe in May, early June. But then I'd have to think of another reason not to go into the cave.

I applaud the idea of additional activities with the team, build camaraderie, and, er— team building as it were. I wish the coach could have seen this coming.


The sidemount rig is interesting. I've never heard of it, not that I have had occasion to. Not a diver, I've had a few occasions to play around with some dive gear, but under watchful eyes.




An older version of this (any color you wanted so long as it was black), a J-valve, Squale mask, and Void fins were what I knew of diving. Oh, and a well read copy of The Silent World in the bookcase.

Years later, when again exposed to diving, it was pretty amazing. To this day, almost every time I see or think of diving, one of the most dynamic TV themes plays in my head— Sea Hunt.




When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men
except by believing all possible evil
of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

-An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

Mister, that's a ten-gallon hat on a twenty-gallon head.

I *love* Sigs. It's Glocks I hate.
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Re: Boys trapped in cave
Posted by: Blankity Blank
Date: July 05, 2018 02:47PM
Quote
Ombligo
That's me.

The last I checked (which was years ago), I am the only one-armed cave diver in the world. For cave certification, each applicant is discussed by the licensing committee. They were skeptical of me due to my missing arm. My instructor went to bat for me, told them that I did better than the other two in my training group - they were both professional divers.
I’ll just say, “Wow...”, pick my jaw up off the floor, and move on.

Going to the outskirts of Crazy Town, anybody have insight into if there’s even a slight chance this could counterintuitively be a problem where a sledgehammer might get it done where it’s looking like time for brain surgery just might not be there?

Any form of loud, quick and dirty form of excavation — even explosives in the right amounts and place — that would open up a quicker route, slow or cut down/off the flow of rainwater, help in any way?

Flipping over the table only works once in a blue moon. Any chance this could be one of those rare times?
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Re: Boys trapped in cave
Posted by: space-time
Date: July 05, 2018 03:34PM
My guess is an explosion would make things worse, much worse. Like cut off access to them, or increase the water flow.

if anything, drilling from the surface is a possibility. They did get all those miners in Chile out eventually, so I guess they can try something similar here.

I saw in the news that the boys hear outside dogs barking, so there must be a shaft/hole/crack (whatever you want to call it) where it may be easier to get in/out.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/05/2018 03:35PM by space-time.
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Re: Boys trapped in cave
Posted by: Dennis S
Date: July 05, 2018 05:04PM
What are the drawbacks of drilling from the surface besides cave-ins? Is there anything in this case that makes it a bad idea?
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Re: Boys trapped in cave
Posted by: Ombligo
Date: July 05, 2018 08:42PM
Quote
Dennis S
What are the drawbacks of drilling from the surface besides cave-ins? Is there anything in this case that makes it a bad idea?

There are a couple of issues..

1) getting drilling equipment to the location, this cave is very remote. The Chilean situation was a mine, the equipment was there and ready to use.

2) This is substantially deeper than Chile. The mine was a 700m bore, this cave is nearly 1,000m down. To put that into perspective, stack two Empire State Buildings, then try to drop a 3-foot wide pipe down them and try to hit a subway tunnel which could be anywhere under the footprint of those buildings.

2A) In Chile, the location was pretty well known, even then it took several attempts to actually hit the mine shaft. In Thailand the cave system has not been mapped with any accuracy. Hittin the cave would involve a great deal of luck.



“No persons are more frequently wrong, than those who will not admit they are wrong.”
-- François de La Rochefoucauld

"WE CALL BS!" -- Emma Gonzalez
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Re: Boys trapped in cave
Posted by: Carnos Jax
Date: July 05, 2018 10:32PM
Damn...one of the volunteer divers (former Thai Navy SEAL) has died while placing spare air tanks around the cave (he ran out of air on the way back).
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