advertisement
Forums

The Forum is sponsored by 
 

AAPL stock: Click Here

You are currently viewing the Tips and Deals forum
Boys trapped in cave: Alternative Rescue Plan H = Drug them
Posted by: 3d
Date: July 06, 2018 05:38PM
Interesting unconventional strategy.
Monsoon is coming.

Jani Santala, a rescue diver trying to save the stranded soccer team in Thailand, suggested a way to get the 12 boys and their coach out. He said the best way for divers to get each boy through the caves would be if they were unconscious. He suggested medics could drug the boys, allowing experts to pull them out "like a parcel." Sedating the boys would prevent them from panicking during the dangerous mission, he said.

[www.businessinsider.com]
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Boys trapped in cave: Alternative Rescue Plan H = Drug them
Posted by: Carnos Jax
Date: July 06, 2018 06:04PM
I think our resident certified cave diver Ombligo suggested this earlier:

Quote
Ombligo
As I mentioned in a previous thread, I have been a fully certified cave diver for nearly 25 years. During that time, I have been in uncomfortable spots. I have lost more than one friend to a cave diving accident. These were among the best in the world, but they were pushing the envelope and lost. From everything I've read and heard about this cave, it is a very advance and dangerous system. No one is going into that cave without a very good reason (like rescuing a group of young boys)

It would literally be a last ditch move to swim the kids out. Frankly if I was to attempt it (and I am not a rescue/recovery expert) - I would the sedate the boy into unconsciousness, put a kirby helmet on him (hardhat, looks like space helmet, no need for a breathing regulator in the mouth), and treat it like a body recovery. Just push him though with no regard to comfort - a singular goal of getting the body out.

However, what I have not heard is which direction the water flow is going, but I expect it is a siphon (water flowing into the cave, not out). That makes a very difficult and dangerous dive. No cave diver wants to do a siphon dive. It makes gas (air) management very difficult.

The water is essentially mud - even with a light you may see 12 inches. (Understand those boys have likely been without light for days before being found. A cave is darker than the darkest night. You can see nothing, not even your hand touching your face, you feel it but can't see it. Caves are as close to be blind as there is).

The public does not understand the level of difficulties that are faced in this situation. If they insist on swimming the boys out, they better be prepared to lose at least one(and likely more).

My far removed from the situation advice - Tell the boys to enjoy MRE's for the next 4-6 months.

If anyone has questions regarding cave diving, ask me. I'll tell you what I know with no BS. If I don't know, I'll admit it.


QUICK EDIT - here is a link to the Cavediver.net forum discussion. There isn't much said there (cave divers tend to keep their mouths shut and talk privately, not publicly). But there are some decent links there to articles and some background of the rescue divers.

The military divers are NOT cave certified and diving recreational style rigs.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Boys trapped in cave: Alternative Rescue Plan H = Drug them
Posted by: 3d
Date: July 06, 2018 06:20PM
Rescue is imminent.
Before putting on your breathing mask, please each take a few bites of this "rescue brownie" and pass it along. quotes smiley <wink> <wink>
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Boys trapped in cave: Alternative Rescue Plan H = Drug them
Posted by: billb
Date: July 06, 2018 06:31PM
Honesty is usually the best way to go.



The Phorum Wall keeps us safe from illegal characters and words
The doorstep to the temple of wisdom is the knowledge of one's own ignorance. -Benjamin Franklin
BOYCOTT YOPLAIT [www.noyoplait.com]
[soundcloud.com]
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Boys trapped in cave: Alternative Rescue Plan H = Drug them
Posted by: wurm
Date: July 06, 2018 07:38PM
This story is far too depressing for me. I so hope they can find a way. Bad enough for the boys and coach who are trapped, and the potential rescuers. Imagine what their poor parents must be going through.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Boys trapped in cave: Alternative Rescue Plan H = Drug them
Posted by: decay
Date: July 06, 2018 07:44PM
I realize we all do dumb things, but why in hell were they that far in the cave?



---
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Boys trapped in cave: Alternative Rescue Plan H = Drug them
Posted by: GGD
Date: July 06, 2018 08:03PM
Quote
decay
I realize we all do dumb things, but why in hell were they that far in the cave?

Escaping the rising water that had trapped them.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Boys trapped in cave: Alternative Rescue Plan H = Drug them
Posted by: Ammo
Date: July 06, 2018 08:17PM
I really feel for those kids - I hope they are brought to safety soon. To be confined underground scares the daylights out of me.



Inside every old person is a young person saying "what happened?"

“Love is the motive, but justice is the instrument.” - Reinhold Niebuhr

“The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.” George Orwell
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Boys trapped in cave: Alternative Rescue Plan H = Drug them
Posted by: Don C
Date: July 06, 2018 08:56PM
Asking out of total ignorance, is drilling down from above like they did for the Chilean minors an option? Either where they are or in a nearby area that they could get to?
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Boys trapped in cave: Alternative Rescue Plan H = Drug them
Posted by: Don C
Date: July 06, 2018 09:13PM
Just read further down the page and see that there is (or could be) a problem puncturing the air bubble that they have.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Boys trapped in cave: Alternative Rescue Plan H = Drug them
Posted by: Dennis S
Date: July 06, 2018 10:59PM
Quote
Don C
Asking out of total ignorance, is drilling down from above like they did for the Chilean minors an option? Either where they are or in a nearby area that they could get to?

Ombligo explained it to me on another thread:

"There are a couple of issues..

1) getting drilling equipment to the location, this cave is very remote. The Chilean situation was a mine, the equipment was there and ready to use.

2) This is substantially deeper than Chile. The mine was a 700m bore, this cave is nearly 1,000m down. To put that into perspective, stack two Empire State Buildings, then try to drop a 3-foot wide pipe down them and try to hit a subway tunnel which could be anywhere under the footprint of those buildings.

2A) In Chile, the location was pretty well known, even then it took several attempts to actually hit the mine shaft. In Thailand the cave system has not been mapped with any accuracy. Hittin the cave would involve a great deal of luck."
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Boys trapped in cave: Alternative Rescue Plan H = Drug them
Posted by: Paul F.
Date: July 07, 2018 03:11PM
A little interesting local news related to this, and Elon Musks offer.

Apparently, a local company that makes inflatable rafts and things just rush-made some cocoons that could be used to put a person in, with an air tank, and drag them out... dry. There was a video this morning of them being tested in a local community pool that happened last night.

Later in the morning, there were a couple pictures of a jet owned or chartered by Elon Musk at our airport, picking up those inflatable cocoons.

Now, these were both from Facebook, so I'd be hesitant to say they're 100% factual without checking some more...



Paul F.
-----
A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand. - Lucius Annaeus Seneca c. 5 BC - 65 AD
----
Good is the enemy of Excellent. Talent is not necessary for Excellence.
Persistence is necessary for Excellence. And Persistence is a Decision.

--

--

--
Eureka, CA
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Boys trapped in cave: Alternative Rescue Plan H = Drug them
Posted by: Paul F.
Date: July 07, 2018 03:18PM
Update: The inflatables manufactuer (Wing Inflatables) posted this on their facebook page;

Quote

Wing is confirming that we are devoting significant resources alongside Space
X for the Thai rescue. We
Have manufactured 13
Special rescue sleds

That was 14 hours ago.

The pics of the private jet at our airport was from 17 hours ago.



Paul F.
-----
A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand. - Lucius Annaeus Seneca c. 5 BC - 65 AD
----
Good is the enemy of Excellent. Talent is not necessary for Excellence.
Persistence is necessary for Excellence. And Persistence is a Decision.

--

--

--
Eureka, CA
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Boys trapped in cave: Alternative Rescue Plan H = Drug them
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: July 07, 2018 03:35PM
Those rescue sleds sound promising.

I wonder how small is the smallest point in the passage.

The kids would probably still benefit from some suspended animation.




When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men
except by believing all possible evil
of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

-An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

Mister, that's a ten-gallon hat on a twenty-gallon head.

I *love* Sigs. It's Glocks I hate.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Boys trapped in cave: Alternative Rescue Plan H = Drug them
Posted by: Ombligo
Date: July 07, 2018 04:09PM
Quote
RAMd®d
I wonder how small is the smallest point in the passage.

It's a no-mount passage (meaning you have to take your dive tank off to get through), so it is less than 3' in diameter.



“No persons are more frequently wrong, than those who will not admit they are wrong.”
-- François de La Rochefoucauld

"WE CALL BS!" -- Emma Gonzalez
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Boys trapped in cave: Alternative Rescue Plan H = Drug them
Posted by: Dennis S
Date: July 07, 2018 05:05PM
Isn't an inflatable raft liable to get punctured? I was thinking about a stronger rigid material so that they could basically be "winched" out over water and rocks.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Boys trapped in cave: Alternative Rescue Plan H = Drug them
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: July 07, 2018 05:08PM
It's a no-mount passage (meaning you have to take your dive tank off to get through), so it is less than 3' in diameter.

Holy fsckin' Moly.

Om, you expertise and information is much appreciated. Given the stakes, it helps to have actual factual knowledge and explanations.




When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men
except by believing all possible evil
of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

-An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

Mister, that's a ten-gallon hat on a twenty-gallon head.

I *love* Sigs. It's Glocks I hate.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Boys trapped in cave: Alternative Rescue Plan H = Drug them
Posted by: Paul F.
Date: July 07, 2018 06:38PM
Quote
Dennis S
Isn't an inflatable raft liable to get punctured? I was thinking about a stronger rigid material so that they could basically be "winched" out over water and rocks.

From the picture of the testing at the Arcata Community Pool, it's not really a raft... it's a bag you put the person in to keep them dry and with a nice air cylinder. But, there wasn't much I could learn for a short, badly shot video.



Paul F.
-----
A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand. - Lucius Annaeus Seneca c. 5 BC - 65 AD
----
Good is the enemy of Excellent. Talent is not necessary for Excellence.
Persistence is necessary for Excellence. And Persistence is a Decision.

--

--

--
Eureka, CA
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Boys trapped in cave: Alternative Rescue Plan H = Drug them
Posted by: pRICE cUBE
Date: July 07, 2018 10:19PM
Quote
Paul F.
Quote
Dennis S
Isn't an inflatable raft liable to get punctured? I was thinking about a stronger rigid material so that they could basically be "winched" out over water and rocks.

From the picture of the testing at the Arcata Community Pool, it's not really a raft... it's a bag you put the person in to keep them dry and with a nice air cylinder. But, there wasn't much I could learn for a short, badly shot video.

How deep in the water will they go since deeper water will cause more stress on the bodies of these kids? They may be sedated but are still untrained at feeling the pressure from depth and they are in a weakened state. I hope this all works out.



Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Boys trapped in cave: Alternative Rescue Plan H = Drug them
Posted by: JoeH
Date: July 08, 2018 02:31AM
Quote
pRICE cUBE
Quote
Paul F.
Quote
Dennis S
Isn't an inflatable raft liable to get punctured? I was thinking about a stronger rigid material so that they could basically be "winched" out over water and rocks.

From the picture of the testing at the Arcata Community Pool, it's not really a raft... it's a bag you put the person in to keep them dry and with a nice air cylinder. But, there wasn't much I could learn for a short, badly shot video.

How deep in the water will they go since deeper water will cause more stress on the bodies of these kids? They may be sedated but are still untrained at feeling the pressure from depth and they are in a weakened state. I hope this all works out.

I recall reading that the deepest sump area along the route into the cave was about 10 meters.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Boys trapped in cave: Alternative Rescue Plan H = Drug them
Posted by: Ombligo
Date: July 08, 2018 06:32AM
You really don't feel any pressure at depth. As long as your ear canals can equalize you are good to go. Recall that the bulk of the human body is liquid, which does not compress under pressure.



“No persons are more frequently wrong, than those who will not admit they are wrong.”
-- François de La Rochefoucauld

"WE CALL BS!" -- Emma Gonzalez
Options:  Reply • Quote
Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.

Click here to login

Online Users

Guests: 206
Record Number of Users: 52 on November 20, 2014
Record Number of Guests: 847 on February 04, 2015