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Chipped Credit/Debit cards: are they really more secure than old style swipe cards?
Posted by: space-time
Date: August 29, 2018 10:14AM
Most card have chips and in my experience 99% of retailers use chip now. I think there was still a retail place that asked me two swipe the card a few months ago but honestly I don't remember which.

Anyway, this brings up the question: Is there any evidence that chipped cards are more secure than swiping? I still hear about people's credit cards being compromised. And many places do not ask you to sign below a certain amount.

In Europe they had pin much longer, and as far as I remember, even back in 2000 or so they asked me to enter a PIN when I tried to use the credit card. When I told them I do not have a pin and I could sing the receipt, they were confused. eventually a manager knew how to handle that type of transaction. I think they were used to DEBIT cards.

In my experience here in US the chip just slow down the transaction. Sometimes there is a chip read error and you have to re-insert the card. Even when it reads the chip fine the first time, for some unknown (to me) reason you have to leave the card inserted until the machine tell you to remove the card ( and sometimes it makes that annoying sound). I don't the chip made anything more secure/faster/easier. But I could be wrong.
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Re: Chipped Credit/Debit cards: are they really more secure than old style swipe cards?
Posted by: Paul F.
Date: August 29, 2018 10:22AM
It comes down to this:
What's easier for a machine to verify, a 4 digit PIN, or a signature?
I don't know ANYONE who has ever had to "verify" their signature for a credit card transaction, and in fact know people that just scribble on the signature screen, without bothering to sign it with their signature.
How is that secure at all?

At least with a PIN, it's checking against something.

I've noticed the speed of the machines has improved dramatically in the last year. Still slower than a swipe, but much improved over a year ago.

I don't know if the "Chip and PIN" is the cause, but credit card fraud in Europe is something like 2/3 LESS than in the U.S./Canada.



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Re: Chipped Credit/Debit cards: are they really more secure than old style swipe cards?
Posted by: Acer
Date: August 29, 2018 10:33AM
I think the problem being addressed with the chip is duplicating a physical card with someone else's numbers. Easy for a counterfeiter to program a magnetic strip, harder to program a chip.

It does nothing for online fraud. Apparently in-person retail fraud is still the bigger fish?

Seems to me a PIN would help with the online part, but even that is just another piece of information that can be stolen in a breech.
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Re: Chipped Credit/Debit cards: are they really more secure than old style swipe cards?
Posted by: billb
Date: August 29, 2018 10:37AM
EMV cards add a layer of encrypted security at card -present point of use.

That old magnetic stripe had/had unchanging data that is fairly easy to read and retain for fraudulent purposes.

There is no added fraud protection when the card is used <not at a chip reader>.

Soon cards will no longer retain the magnetic stripe for late chip adoption purposes.


So yes, they are more secure but only address one method of fraud.



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Re: Chipped Credit/Debit cards: are they really more secure than old style swipe cards?
Posted by: ztirffritz
Date: August 29, 2018 10:54AM
Planet Money covered the history of the chip a while ago:
[www.npr.org]



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Re: Chipped Credit/Debit cards: are they really more secure than old style swipe cards?
Posted by: bobinmurphy
Date: August 29, 2018 11:08AM
I don't recall every having to enter a PIN when I used a chipped card for a credit purchase. Some stores still require a signature though. I may be wrong, but I think the PIN is generally only used on debit purchases which immediately take funds from your account, unlike credit purchases. An added benefit of a credit purchase over a debit purchase is the ability to dispute the charge, get purchase protection and sometimes even extended warranty.

Traveling in Canada I've noticed that most places only accept chipped cards and require a pre-authorization purchase transaction before proceeding with the sale which is a bit of a pain. Plus the hassle with MC and Visa being used in a foreign country (they insist on trying to make sure you know you're not in the USA when making a purchase), has me reverting to just use cash when I cross the border. Like I always tried telling them, yeah I know I'm in a foreign country and that probably explains the border guards.
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Re: Chipped Credit/Debit cards: are they really more secure than old style swipe cards?
Posted by: Gareth
Date: August 29, 2018 11:17AM
Quote
space-time
In Europe they had pin much longer, and as far as I remember, even back in 2000 or so they asked me to enter a PIN when I tried to use the credit card. When I told them I do not have a pin and I could sing the receipt, they were confused. eventually a manager knew how to handle that type of transaction. I think they were used to DEBIT cards.

Europe has had Chip & PIN credit cards for decades now. So, yes, instead of a signature, they use a PIN with their CREDIT CARDS. Why we didn't implement this in the US when they rolled out chip cards, I have no idea, especially since most credit cards support a pin for cash advance withdrawals at an ATM already. It would make so much more sense.
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Re: Chipped Credit/Debit cards: are they really more secure than old style swipe cards?
Posted by: Speedy
Date: August 29, 2018 11:31AM
Quote
bobinmurphy
Traveling in Canada I've noticed that most places only accept chipped cards.

And your card never leaves your hand, they bring the terminal to you. This keeps the clerks/waitstaff honest. I like it, it should be that way here.

My card was refused when I bought a new computer on-line the other day. I had to call the cc company and they released the 'refusal'. I thanked them for their vigilance.



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Re: Chipped Credit/Debit cards: are they really more secure than old style swipe cards?
Posted by: richorlin
Date: August 29, 2018 11:32AM
Yes, chip & PIN is the most secure. However, the majority of credit card providers are only using chip without PIN, which is not as secure. You can ask your credit card servicer to allow you to set up a PIN for your card. This is most important if you are using your card in Europe as most service providers in Europe require a PIN.



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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/29/2018 11:33AM by richorlin.
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Re: Chipped Credit/Debit cards: are they really more secure than old style swipe cards?
Posted by: space-time
Date: August 29, 2018 11:50AM
Quote
richorlin
Yes, chip & PIN is the most secure. However, the majority of credit card providers are only using chip without PIN, which is not as secure. You can ask your credit card servicer to allow you to set up a PIN for your card. This is most important if you are using your card in Europe as most service providers in Europe require a PIN.

Interesting, I was not aware that you can ask to setup a PIN. That would come in handy when I travel. Thanks!
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Re: Chipped Credit/Debit cards: are they really more secure than old style swipe cards?
Posted by: Speedy
Date: August 29, 2018 12:33PM
Quote
richorlin
Yes, chip & PIN is the most secure. However, the majority of credit card providers are only using chip without PIN, which is not as secure. You can ask your credit card servicer to allow you to set up a PIN for your card. This is most important if you are using your card in Europe as most service providers in Europe require a PIN.

I believe this PIN requirement in Europe is only for debit cards. When we were there last year we were often asked to enter our PIN and when I said we didn't have one, the response was "Oh, it's a credit card."



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Re: Chipped Credit/Debit cards: are they really more secure than old style swipe cards?
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: August 29, 2018 01:32PM
I think the problem being addressed with the chip is duplicating a physical card with someone else's numbers. Easy for a counterfeiter to program a magnetic strip, harder to program a chip.

It does nothing for online fraud. Apparently in-person retail fraud is still the bigger fish?

Seems to me a PIN would help with the online part, but even that is just another piece of information that can be stolen in a breech.


This.

All of this.


I'd chip and pin be the standard for POS use when Apple Pay or one's TnP of choice is not available. One bank's card had a one-time card number. That would be a big help, too.

I don't have to use a PIN when I use my debt or credit card, but I do have to use one with Apple Pay (except at McDonald's and El Pollo Loco). If I recall correctly, there was one place that didn't require a PIN with Apple Pay, but did require a signature. I don't remember the dollar amount.

I'm OK with AP and PIN, but I'd be OKer without it.




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Re: Chipped Credit/Debit cards: are they really more secure than old style swipe cards?
Posted by: Filliam H. Muffman
Date: August 29, 2018 02:51PM
My understanding is that Chip and Pin is already hacked but it takes a lot of fast work to make it really pay off.

What happens when someone pickpockets your phone (and you don't notice) right after you pay with it?



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Re: Chipped Credit/Debit cards: are they really more secure than old style swipe cards?
Posted by: dk62
Date: August 29, 2018 03:33PM
In Europe, Pin is used for credit cards as well, but most places can handle signature instead (although they are not really used to this). The exception are some ticket selling machines at train stations, where they require PIN with credit cards and will frequently not take debit cards. In US, some issuers provide PIN and some do not even when requested. Also, for some reason, chip readers are slower in US than in Europe.

Regarding letting banks know when you travel, I told my issuers that I travel too frequently to bother and that I will cancel the card the moment they turn down a transaction because I am abroad. No problems since. Also note that they are protecting themselves and not you, regardless of what they say. You are not responsible for fraudulent charge on a credit card.
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Re: Chipped Credit/Debit cards: are they really more secure than old style swipe cards?
Posted by: Bill in NC
Date: August 29, 2018 03:46PM
There's no true "chip with PIN required" credit card issued here in the U.S.

So if your credit card is stolen, yes, it can be used until you cancel it.
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Re: Chipped Credit/Debit cards: are they really more secure than old style swipe cards?
Posted by: Fritz
Date: August 29, 2018 04:06PM
I don't think anything is truly secure ........ but it does give me a warm and squishy feeling inside.



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Re: Chipped Credit/Debit cards: are they really more secure than old style swipe cards?
Posted by: NewtonMP2100
Date: August 29, 2018 08:19PM
....so do you swipe right.....or swipe left......??



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Re: Chipped Credit/Debit cards: are they really more secure than old style swipe cards?
Posted by: space-time
Date: August 29, 2018 09:13PM
Quote
NewtonMP2100
....so do you swipe right.....or swipe left......??

I swipe up and down. At the urinal.
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Re: Chipped Credit/Debit cards: are they really more secure than old style swipe cards?
Posted by: TheCaber
Date: August 30, 2018 08:22AM
barf smiley



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Re: Chipped Credit/Debit cards: are they really more secure than old style swipe cards?
Posted by: NewtonMP2100
Date: August 30, 2018 09:31AM
....to completion.....??

....blech.........!!



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Re: Chipped Credit/Debit cards: are they really more secure than old style swipe cards?
Posted by: $tevie
Date: August 30, 2018 06:09PM
What about the new option to tap your card? How is that secure?



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