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is this discrimination?
Posted by: space-time
Date: November 19, 2018 10:42AM
let's say you want to promote equal opportunity and diversity and you definitely want to avoid discrimination based on gender, sexual orientation, national origin, age, marital status, religion, etc... you know the usual list.

Supposed you hire a person from country X (just a hypothetical example). This person recommends another person from the same country, and so on, and soon the percentage of people from country X is 40% in your company, whereas in the US they represent say 5%. So next time you hire, and you get a resume from X. what do you do? do you continue to hire people from X, or you put the resume aside and keep looking hoping to get a good applicant from Y or Z in order to restore some diversity? what if someone finds out that you rejected an applicant from X, can you be accused of discrimination?

Thanks
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Re: is this discrimination?
Posted by: cbelt3
Date: November 19, 2018 11:02AM
Ultimately the legality depends on your business and the laws under which you work. Your HR organization should be able to guide you, but get everything in writing. Theoretically, to avoid discrimination, the selection process should REMOVE all reference to the person's background and focus entirely on their ability to do the job. In reality, that's impossible.

As per the work dynamic in the company, if a workforce becomes tribal (via language, national origin, religion, politics, or even Star Trek fannishness) the interpersonal dynamic can be detrimental to efficiency and retention.

Good luck !
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Re: is this discrimination?
Posted by: deckeda
Date: November 19, 2018 11:25AM
Quote
space-time
... do you continue to hire people from X ...

Dunno, are they the best candidate?

It would be unusual/impossible for candidates from one country/ethnicity/whatever to be disproportionally better qualified, absent some artificial assistance such as an environment that better fostered their education or other support structures.

So again the question always is, are they the best candidate?

can you be accused of discrimination?

That's not usually a practical "problem" for hiring managers.
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Re: is this discrimination?
Posted by: anonymouse1
Date: November 19, 2018 12:13PM
I suggest that you were looking at the wrong place in the chain. The discrimination is occurring when the first person from country X hired someone else from country X. My presumption there is that there are many other equally or better qualified people from other backgrounds, yet the person from country X only heard from country X.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/19/2018 12:14PM by anonymouse1.
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Re: is this discrimination?
Posted by: DeusxMac
Date: November 19, 2018 12:46PM
Quote
anonymouse1
I suggest that you were looking at the wrong place in the chain. The discrimination is occurring when the first person from country X hired someone else from country X. My presumption there is that there are many other equally or better qualified people from other backgrounds, yet the person from country X only heard from country X.

IS the person making the hiring decision(s) also from country X?
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Re: is this discrimination?
Posted by: space-time
Date: November 19, 2018 01:22PM
Quote
DeusxMac
Quote
anonymouse1
I suggest that you were looking at the wrong place in the chain. The discrimination is occurring when the first person from country X hired someone else from country X. My presumption there is that there are many other equally or better qualified people from other backgrounds, yet the person from country X only heard from country X.

IS the person making the hiring decision(s) also from country X?

good question. In my original question, no, the persona making the decision was not from X: Supposed you hire a person from country X (just a hypothetical example). This person recommends another person from the same country, and so on, ... but you (neutral) end up hiring people from X because you get a lot of applicants from X.


Now what is the person making the decision was from X? would this person, if they rejected other applicants from X, because the personally feel they have already enough colleagues from X, can this person be accused of discrimination against people from X? That is an interesting question.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/19/2018 01:22PM by space-time.
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Re: is this discrimination?
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: November 19, 2018 01:48PM
So again the question always is, are they the best candidate?

That's not always the question, except in the minds of people who were better qualified.

The questions always is, are they qualified enough to add to diversity?

It can be argued that 'best qualified' should be the priority, but there are probably few jobs where that's the always the case.

Unless a hiring is based on a spin of a wheel, neutrality and impartiality will always be suspect by somebody, unfounded or not.




When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men except
by believing all possible evil of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

Perfection is the enemy of progress. -Winston Churchill

-An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

Mister, that's a ten-gallon hat on a twenty-gallon head.

I *love* SIGs. It's Glocks I hate.
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Re: is this discrimination?
Posted by: deckeda
Date: November 19, 2018 02:29PM
Quote
DeusxMac
IS the person making the hiring decision(s) also from country X?

Irrelevant.
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Re: is this discrimination?
Posted by: billb
Date: November 19, 2018 02:32PM
Quote
space-time
40% in your company, whereas in the US they represent say 5%.
Unless your hiring pool is the whole USA, generally your hiring pool is the local area and its demographics.
I would consider the local hiring pool as that to which the distance equals your longest distance commuter(s).



The Phorum Wall keeps us safe from illegal characters and words
The doorstep to the temple of wisdom is the knowledge of one's own ignorance. -Benjamin Franklin
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Re: is this discrimination?
Posted by: deckeda
Date: November 19, 2018 02:44PM
Quote
RAMd®d
So again the question always is, are they the best candidate?

That's not always the question, except in the minds of people who were better qualified.

The questions always is, are they qualified enough to add to diversity?

It can be argued that 'best qualified' should be the priority, but there are probably few jobs where that's the always the case.

Unless a hiring is based on a spin of a wheel, neutrality and impartiality will always be suspect by somebody, unfounded or not.

Best qualified is a mix of resumé and crap that the resumé can't show: personality for example. Call it natural selection, call it unfair to ugly people, or to people of color, whatever.

But I disagree that the other candidates are to judge who's the best among them. And mostly I disagree that qualifying-to-add-diversity is the path to getting either true diversity or quality.
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Re: is this discrimination?
Posted by: deckeda
Date: November 19, 2018 02:54PM
gah wrong thread



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/19/2018 02:55PM by deckeda.
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Re: is this discrimination?
Posted by: Bernie
Date: November 19, 2018 02:55PM
Quote
billb
Quote
space-time
40% in your company, whereas in the US they represent say 5%.
Unless your hiring pool is the whole USA, generally your hiring pool is the local area and its demographics.
I would consider the local hiring pool as that to which the distance equals your longest distance commuter(s).

A company I once worked for expanded the work search 150 miles in an attempt to draw some diversity into the trade. What a waste. This guy commuted over 2 hours for about 5 months then quit.
A company I once worked for!




Staunton, Virginia
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Re: is this discrimination?
Posted by: DeusxMac
Date: November 19, 2018 03:31PM
Quote
deckeda
Quote
DeusxMac
IS the person making the hiring decision(s) also from country X?

Irrelevant.

Not necessarily. If:
1. hiring company is located in country Y
2. has employees from countries Y, Z and X at its location
3. person assigned to make hires is from country X
4. that person hires exclusively, or clearly disproportionate numbers from country X

Questions could be legitimately raised about unfair biases in selection process.
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Re: is this discrimination?
Posted by: testcase
Date: November 19, 2018 03:43PM
You can bet that somebody will believe they're being discriminated against. boink smiley
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Re: is this discrimination?
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: November 19, 2018 06:11PM
And mostly I disagree that qualifying-to-add-diversity is the path to getting either true diversity or quality.

As do I.

But that makes us dinosaurs or some kind of supremacist in many modern circles.




When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men except
by believing all possible evil of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

Perfection is the enemy of progress. -Winston Churchill

-An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

Mister, that's a ten-gallon hat on a twenty-gallon head.

I *love* SIGs. It's Glocks I hate.
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Re: is this discrimination?
Posted by: WHiiP
Date: November 20, 2018 07:04AM
I would strive VERY diligently to create a short test that would show qualities the worker must/should possess for the job to be performed. This will not be easy to do, but gives you a starting point for further consideration.

Pre-employment testing



Bill
Flagler Beach, FL 32136

Carpe Vino!

Fermentation may have been a greater discovery than fire.
— David Rains Wallace
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Re: is this discrimination?
Posted by: dk62
Date: November 20, 2018 10:33AM
I loathe striving for just any kind of diversity. I am actually looking for diversity of thought and professional experience. And fit with the culture of the organization. Formal qualifications come below that. And everything else is relatively irrelevant, except if someone comes from my country of origin, I would be tougher in interviewing in order to be doubly sure they are suitable for position so I would not be suspected of bias.
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Re: is this discrimination?
Posted by: NewtonMP2100
Date: November 20, 2018 11:30AM
.....if you look at the finance world.....it is done all the time.....the top candidates are white males.....and regardless of the 'best qualified', they get hired most of the time and the have the best opportunities.......even though it is done, it is difficult to claim that others are being 'discriminated' against because it can be hard to prove.......



_____________________________________

I reject your reality and substitute my own!
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Re: is this discrimination?
Posted by: August West
Date: November 20, 2018 04:25PM
In Jersey anything's legal as long as you don't get caught



Picasso in his studio after the liberation of Paris, taken by my friend and mentor.

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