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not elementary?!.....James Watson [ father of DNA ] stripped of titles.....
Posted by: NewtonMP2100
Date: January 14, 2019 09:02AM
....for racists comments....



DNA pioneer stripped of honors over 'reprehensible' race comments

.....A Nobel Prize-winning American scientist and DNA pioneer has been stripped of his honorary titles at the laboratory he once led after repeating racist comments in a documentary.

James Watson, who helped discover the double-helix structure of DNA alongside Francis Crick in the 1950s based on the work of British chemist Rosalind Franklin, said in a PBS film that genes cause a difference in intelligence between white and black people in IQ tests.

The 90-year-old's comments were labeled "reprehensible" by the Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory (CSHL) on New York's Long Island, where Watson had been the director from 1968 to 1993.

The laboratory said it "unequivocally rejects the unsubstantiated and reckless personal opinions Dr. James D. Watson expressed," noting the statements were "reprehensible [and] unsupported by science."

"The Laboratory condemns the misuse of science to justify prejudice," its statement added.

CNN has attempted to reach Watson for comment.

Watson had previously told Britain's Sunday Times newspaper in 2007 that he was "inherently gloomy about the prospect of Africa" because "all our social policies are based on the fact that their intelligence is the same as ours, whereas all the testing says not really."

The scientist added that while he hoped everyone was equal, "people who have to deal with black employees find this is not true."

Those comments led CSHL to relieve him of his administrative duties, but he retained his honorary titles until now.

While Watson apologized for the comments in 2007, he said in the PBS documentary "American Masters: Decoding Watson," which aired on 2 January, that his views had not changed.

The remarks are the latest in a series of racist and homophobic statements that have tainted Watson's career.

In 1997, Britain's Sunday Telegraph quoted him as saying that women should be allowed to abort a child for any reason, such as if a gene for homosexuality were found in the fetus.

During a lecture tour in 2000, he suggested there might be links between a person's weight and their level of ambition and between skin color and sexual prowess.

"That's why you have Latin lovers," he said, according to The Associated Press, which cited people who attended the lecture. "You've never heard of an English lover. Only an English patient."

And in a British TV documentary that aired in 2003, Watson suggested stupidity was a genetic disease that should be treated.



........stripped...........?!



_____________________________________

I reject your reality and substitute my own!
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Re: not elementary?!.....James Watson [ father of DNA ] stripped of titles.....
Posted by: robfilms
Date: January 14, 2019 10:27AM
does genius in one area make you immune to being wrong in another?

rob
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Re: not elementary?!.....James Watson [ father of DNA ] stripped of titles.....
Posted by: cbelt3
Date: January 14, 2019 10:33AM
Quote
robfilms
does genius in one area make you immune to being wrong in another?

rob

Nope. And being really old after a lifetime around toxic chemicals and X-rays tends to let juvenile prejudices percolate back to the top. He was 82 when the film was made. Remember that 'race' was considered a factor in intelligence well into the 1970's in the scientific communities.

It's a pity they didn't edit that yammering out.
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Re: not elementary?!.....James Watson [ father of DNA ] stripped of titles.....
Posted by: neophyte
Date: January 14, 2019 10:40AM
Quote
robfilms
does genius in one area make you immune to being wrong in another?

rob

It does not. But I would not characterize him as genius: it was Rosalind Franklin's expert refinement of the x-ray crystallography technique in Maurice Wilkins laboratory that provided clear images of the structure of DNA crystals. Of all the proposed DNA models, Franklin's images supported only one. Neither Franklin nor Wilkins were credited with authorship on Watson and Crick's paper.
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Re: not elementary?!.....James Watson [ father of DNA ] stripped of titles.....
Posted by: rjmacs
Date: January 14, 2019 10:55AM
Quote
robfilms
does genius in one area make you immune to being wrong in another?

rob

Obviously not, since he was right about DNA and is wrong about race.

In this context, what's been stripped is the honor conveyed by title. He besmirched that honor through his racist and homophobic acts and statements. No one is criticizing his work on the structure of genetic material.



rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future
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Re: not elementary?!.....James Watson [ father of DNA ] stripped of titles.....
Posted by: timg
Date: January 14, 2019 12:08PM
obviously he has some defects in his DNA ...



Skill without imagination is craftsmanship. Imagination without skill is Modern Art.
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Re: not elementary?!.....James Watson [ father of DNA ] stripped of titles.....
Posted by: pipiens
Date: January 14, 2019 01:32PM
I know just about nothing about this stuff. Can someone point me to some studies that shows Watson to be wrong?
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Re: not elementary?!.....James Watson [ father of DNA ] stripped of titles.....
Posted by: rjmacs
Date: January 14, 2019 02:17PM
Quote
pipiens
I know just about nothing about this stuff. Can someone point me to some studies that shows Watson to be wrong?

You don't need to disprove a theory that lacks evidence and experimental support. That's not how science works.

Edited for typo - oops!



rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future




Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/14/2019 02:18PM by rjmacs.
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Re: not elementary?!.....James Watson [ father of DNA ] stripped of titles.....
Posted by: pipiens
Date: January 14, 2019 02:43PM
Quote
rjmacs
Quote
pipiens
I know just about nothing about this stuff. Can someone point me to some studies that shows Watson to be wrong?

You don't need to disprove a theory that lacks evidence and experimental support. That's not how science works.

Edited for typo - oops!

You folks know a lot more than I do. Have there been any studies?
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Re: not elementary?!.....James Watson [ father of DNA ] stripped of titles.....
Posted by: rjmacs
Date: January 14, 2019 03:23PM
Quote
pipiens
Quote
rjmacs
Quote
pipiens
I know just about nothing about this stuff. Can someone point me to some studies that shows Watson to be wrong?

You don't need to disprove a theory that lacks evidence and experimental support. That's not how science works.

Edited for typo - oops!

You folks know a lot more than I do. Have there been any studies?

I'm honestly not sure what you mean. Watson has never documented his racist claims about genetics with actual studies or evidence. He's never published a study on the topic. He has never conducted any research to support his claims.

Why would there need to be studies to refute his claims, when there aren't studies that support them?



rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future
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Re: not elementary?!.....James Watson [ father of DNA ] stripped of titles.....
Posted by: pipiens
Date: January 14, 2019 03:47PM
Quote
rjmacs
Quote
pipiens
Quote
rjmacs
Quote
pipiens
I know just about nothing about this stuff. Can someone point me to some studies that shows Watson to be wrong?

You don't need to disprove a theory that lacks evidence and experimental support. That's not how science works.

Edited for typo - oops!

You folks know a lot more than I do. Have there been any studies?

I'm honestly not sure what you mean. Watson has never documented his racist claims about genetics with actual studies or evidence. He's never published a study on the topic. He has never conducted any research to support his claims.

Why would there need to be studies to refute his claims, when there aren't studies that support them?

Sorry that I was not clear. Are you saying that there are no studies on the subject of differences in IQ by population type? None that refute his claim and also none that support it? By anybody?
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Re: not elementary?!.....James Watson [ father of DNA ] stripped of titles.....
Posted by: rjmacs
Date: January 14, 2019 03:55PM
Quote
pipiens
Quote
rjmacs
I'm honestly not sure what you mean. Watson has never documented his racist claims about genetics with actual studies or evidence. He's never published a study on the topic. He has never conducted any research to support his claims.

Why would there need to be studies to refute his claims, when there aren't studies that support them?

Sorry that I was not clear. Are you saying that there are no studies on the subject of differences in IQ by population type? None that refute his claim and also none that support it? By anybody?

I suppose that to begin this inquiry, we'd need to know which studies Watson considers to be supportive of his claims. He doesn't indicate which ones do, and no other reputable organizations are standing up his claim with documentation, so it doesn't seem like his claim is supported by science.

You are making his claim so vague that it's meaningless. It's not what he claimed, so it's not clear how pursuing your question addresses the question.



rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/14/2019 03:58PM by rjmacs.
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Re: not elementary?!.....James Watson [ father of DNA ] stripped of titles.....
Posted by: pipiens
Date: January 14, 2019 04:16PM
Quote
rjmacs
Quote
pipiens
Quote
rjmacs
I'm honestly not sure what you mean. Watson has never documented his racist claims about genetics with actual studies or evidence. He's never published a study on the topic. He has never conducted any research to support his claims.

Why would there need to be studies to refute his claims, when there aren't studies that support them?

Sorry that I was not clear. Are you saying that there are no studies on the subject of differences in IQ by population type? None that refute his claim and also none that support it? By anybody?

I suppose that to begin this inquiry, we'd need to know which studies Watson considers to be supportive of his claims. He doesn't indicate which ones do, and no other reputable organizations are standing up his claim with documentation, so it doesn't seem like his claim is supported by science.

You are making his claim so vague that it's meaningless. It's not what he claimed, so it's not clear how pursuing your question addresses the question.

I have a lot of respect for all the members of this forum. I have learned lots from all of you over the years. Many of you folks have had negative things to say about Watson's remarks. I believe you are most concerned with his assertion that the mean IQ of blacks is less than the mean IQ of whites.

The intensity of the comments suggests that you know something about the subject (I do not). My question is what studies , if any, have been done on differences in white/black IQ.
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Re: not elementary?!.....James Watson [ father of DNA ] stripped of titles.....
Posted by: rjmacs
Date: January 14, 2019 04:24PM
Quote
pipiens
I have a lot of respect for all the members of this forum. I have learned lots from all of you over the years. Many of you folks have had negative things to say about Watson's remarks. I believe you are most concerned with his assertion that the mean IQ of blacks is less than the mean IQ of whites.

The intensity of the comments suggests that you know something about the subject (I do not). My question is what studies , if any, have been done on differences in white/black IQ.

His assertion is not that "the mean IQ of blacks is less than the mean IQ of whites." His assertion is that the explanation for differences among groups is accountable to genetic difference resulting from divergent evolutionary development of those groups.

As far as I know, there are zero (none, zip, zero, bupkis) studies that have found evidence for divergent evolutionary development explaining variation in measures of intelligence in human subjects.

So, that's your answer, unless someone here knows otherwise. There is no evidence for his claim, period.

Is that a clearer answer? Part of the problem here is that being vague or unclear about his claims makes further discussion difficult.



rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future
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Re: not elementary?!.....James Watson [ father of DNA ] stripped of titles.....
Posted by: pipiens
Date: January 14, 2019 04:30PM
Quote
rjmacs
Quote
pipiens
I have a lot of respect for all the members of this forum. I have learned lots from all of you over the years. Many of you folks have had negative things to say about Watson's remarks. I believe you are most concerned with his assertion that the mean IQ of blacks is less than the mean IQ of whites.

The intensity of the comments suggests that you know something about the subject (I do not). My question is what studies , if any, have been done on differences in white/black IQ.

His assertion is not that "the mean IQ of blacks is less than the mean IQ of whites." His assertion is that the explanation for differences among groups is accountable to genetic difference resulting from divergent evolutionary development of those groups.

As far as I know, there are zero (none, zip, zero, bupkis) studies that have found evidence for divergent evolutionary development explaining variation in measures of intelligence in human subjects.

So, that's your answer, unless someone here knows otherwise. There is no evidence for his claim, period.

Is that a clearer answer? Part of the problem here is that being vague or unclear about his claims makes further discussion difficult.

OK Many thanks. That certainly is clear.

Does anyone else here know of such studies?
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Re: not elementary?!.....James Watson [ father of DNA ] stripped of titles.....
Posted by: rjmacs
Date: January 14, 2019 04:34PM
Quote
pipiens
OK Many thanks. That certainly is clear.

Does anyone else here know of such studies?

You're welcome. I look forward to hearing more on the subject.



rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future
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Re: not elementary?!.....James Watson [ father of DNA ] stripped of titles.....
Posted by: space-time
Date: January 14, 2019 07:19PM
Interesting debate here on the forum.

I am also curious if there are any studies on this topic. And if there are none, would anyone be allowed to conduct such studies (i.e. get funding and support for such studies) these days? what would happen if the outcome would be that population X has an IQ 2 points different than population Y? would that spark outrage? Assuming the samples size is large enough that the difference is statistically meaningful. And that the test was done fairly and with a protocol accepted by both sides.
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Re: not elementary?!.....James Watson [ father of DNA ] stripped of titles.....
Posted by: freeradical
Date: January 14, 2019 07:25PM
The median IQ of Ashkenazi Jews is over 100. I see no reason why it couldn't be below 100 in other groups.
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Re: not elementary?!.....James Watson [ father of DNA ] stripped of titles.....
Posted by: dk62
Date: January 14, 2019 07:48PM
I met him several times when I was at CSHL, was surprised not to be more impressed.
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Re: not elementary?!.....James Watson [ father of DNA ] stripped of titles.....
Posted by: pipiens
Date: January 14, 2019 09:45PM
Quote
freeradical
The median IQ of Ashkenazi Jews is over 100. I see no reason why it couldn't be below 100 in other groups.

Interesting. Can you point us to a study that shows that result?
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Re: not elementary?!.....James Watson [ father of DNA ] stripped of titles.....
Posted by: freeradical
Date: January 14, 2019 10:23PM
Quote
pipiens
Quote
freeradical
The median IQ of Ashkenazi Jews is over 100. I see no reason why it couldn't be below 100 in other groups.

Interesting. Can you point us to a study that shows that result?

No, I can't since I'm not a researcher in this area. I'm simply interested in this topic, and I've read about it. I should also say that I should have said "mean" instead of "median", since it's the high end outliers that make this fascinating. Namely, why are so many Nobel Prize winners Ashkenazi Jews.
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Re: not elementary?!.....James Watson [ father of DNA ] stripped of titles.....
Posted by: pipiens
Date: January 15, 2019 05:06PM
Quote
freeradical
Quote
pipiens
Quote
freeradical
The median IQ of Ashkenazi Jews is over 100. I see no reason why it couldn't be below 100 in other groups.

Interesting. Can you point us to a study that shows that result?

No, I can't since I'm not a researcher in this area. I'm simply interested in this topic, and I've read about it. I should also say that I should have said "mean" instead of "median", since it's the high end outliers that make this fascinating. Namely, why are so many Nobel Prize winners Ashkenazi Jews.

To your point.
[www.amazon.com]
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Re: not elementary?!.....James Watson [ father of DNA ] stripped of titles.....
Posted by: pipiens
Date: January 15, 2019 05:42PM
It has been suggested in this thread that Watson had no data to support his assertion that there was a genetic component for differences in mean black/white intelligence.

I searched google scholar for:
'genetic basis for racial intelligence differences'

I got 111,000 hits. I looked at about the first 100 items. The majority supported the view that there was a genetic basis for racial differences in intelligence.

I am in no way capable of assessing the validity of the work on either side. It is clear that Watson has a lot of studies that support his statements
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Re: not elementary?!.....James Watson [ father of DNA ] stripped of titles.....
Posted by: rjmacs
Date: January 16, 2019 07:42AM
Quote
pipiens
It has been suggested in this thread that Watson had no data to support his assertion that there was a genetic component for differences in mean black/white intelligence.

I searched google scholar for:
'genetic basis for racial intelligence differences'

I got 111,000 hits. I looked at about the first 100 items. The majority supported the view that there was a genetic basis for racial differences in intelligence.

I am in no way capable of assessing the validity of the work on either side. It is clear that Watson has a lot of studies that support his statements

No he doesn't, because you are STILL mischaracterizing his claims. I'm not sure why you're so attached to this racist idea, but it seems to be affecting your ability to make a logical argument.



rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future
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Re: not elementary?!.....James Watson [ father of DNA ] stripped of titles.....
Posted by: Winston
Date: January 19, 2019 12:35AM
There is also a fundamental issue with trying to measure IQ. It can get tied up in issues of level of education, cultural differences, and probably many other things.

The IQ test results can also be improved with study for that particular kind of test.
Which means IQ is not a fixed concept, even if there are limits to how much study can improve one individual's results.

All this makes it extremely difficult to do comparative testing, unless you are comparing people from similar cultural, language, and education backgrounds. And even then, there are brilliant people who may not "test well". I know the test designers try to get around this, but it's still not a perfect system.


It might be interesting to look at ancient cultures across the world to get an idea of how societies have shown intelligence. For example, I understand that the Incas had mathematics that was equal to anything any other people had developed to that point, and more advanced in some areas. They had high technology (for the day) in textile design, better than anything anyone else anywhere had come up with.


Also, implicit in the idea of IQ is that it's a prerequisite for a society moving ahead. But that ignores things like how cultural norms affect work habits or safety or rule of law, or what outside pressures there are.

Wars are horrible, for example, but tend to push technology development very fast. I have a friend who put together a collection of Civil War weaponry. He can explain from that the vast improvements in things like rifles and canon which occurred during the war.

I'd argue that one of the benefits of a free market (not just capitalism, but that's part of it), and a working rule of law, is that it provides a relatively positive outlet for competition and creativity. Countries that lack these things may find that the smart people turn their intelligence to other things.


Good luck.

- Winston



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