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Anyone here making sourdough bread? Got some questions
Posted by: space-time
Date: March 13, 2019 08:06PM
new bread machine, Zojirushi has a sourd dough starter setting. You put 360ml Water, 256g bread flour, 5.6g Active Dry yeast and start the cycle. 2 hour 10 min later is done, and then you let it leaven for 7-10 days, then you make the bread. You add 384g Bread flour, 23g sugar, 8.4 g salt and 5.6 g active dry yeast to the original ingredients and start the normal bread cycle.

however, most recipes I saw you youtube and at wikipedia show a much more complicated process. Look at this diagram linked below for example. Holy crap, it is complicated for someone doing it the first time.

Why do they discard 3/4 of the stuff in days 2 through 7? can you start with a smaller quantity in the first place? or can you use some of that 3/4 that you would normally throw out to make additional batches?

Thanks

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Re: Anyone here making sourdough bread? Got some questions
Posted by: Paul F.
Date: March 13, 2019 08:19PM
Good heavens.... that's more complicated than making those Super-villain Class lasers you deny you make!

I love my Zojirushi bread machine, but I have transitioned to making "no machine" Sourdough, using King Arthur Sourdough's Extra Tangy Sourdough recipe, and a starter I maintain (like having a pet... only if you accidentally let it die because you forgot to feed it, you don't cry).

That recipe uses no "other" yeast other than the starter, but you can "shortcut" the long ferment and rising times by tossing in a half teaspoon of yeast in the morning with the additional flour.

The "cliff notes" version is;
1 Cup of fed and vigorous starter.
1-1/2 Cups of warm water (preferably not chlorinated/brominated city water)
3 cups flour (I use a "high gluten All Purpose" flour, but a bread flour works well too).

Mix that up, let it ferment at room temperature for 4 hours, then refrigerate overnight.
In the morning, add;

2 Cups Flour
1 Tbs sugar (my addition to the process... the KA version doesn't add sugar... my starter needs a little extra "oomph").
2 - 1/4 tsp non-iodized salt.
This is where, if you want to speed the next couple steps, you add in half a teaspoon or a teaspoon of yeast....

Mix and knead (by hand or machine), and let rise for "2 to 5 hours, until roughly doubled".

When it's risen, divide in to two loaves, shape (whatever you want for a free-form loaf, or into a loaf pan), and let rise in a warm spot for "2 to 4 hours".

Then bake at 425 degrees for 25 to 30 minutes.

I bake this recipe most weekends, and it makes two loaves. I usually do one in a pan, one as a "free form" boule.

Hope this helps!



Paul F.
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A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand. - Lucius Annaeus Seneca c. 5 BC - 65 AD
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Good is the enemy of Excellent. Talent is not necessary for Excellence.
Persistence is necessary for Excellence. And Persistence is a Decision.

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Eureka, CA
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Re: Anyone here making sourdough bread? Got some questions
Posted by: freeradical
Date: March 13, 2019 08:22PM
Quote
space-time

Why do they discard 3/4 of the stuff in days 2 through 7?

It's so that most of the yeast is local, and not from the initial starter.
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Re: Anyone here making sourdough bread? Got some questions
Posted by: Paul F.
Date: March 13, 2019 08:28PM
I forgot your starter question...

You "discard" some when you feed, so you don't end up with a tanker truck of starter after a while....

I keep a starter which I feed with 1 cup of flour, and 140ml of non chlorinated water - yes, I'm mixing units... sorry.. my flour measuring cups are those evil U.S. measures, my glass liquid measuring cup has ml on it)... I keep it in a crock, and refrigerate it which stretches times between feedings to as long as a week and half. When I plan to make bread, I take it out, discard a cup of starter, feed it, and let it sit a day at room temperature. If it's nice and active, it's ready to use... if it's not, I discard/feed again.

Once it's nice and bubbly and smells healthy (that is, like sourdough starter... ), I use a cup to start my bread (typically on a Friday after work, so it's ready to start Saturday morning). Then I feed the starter and fridge it until the next week I want to bake, and I'll take it out to feed on Thursday morning.

I'll probably bake this weekend, so my starter is hibernating in the fridge at the moment.



Paul F.
-----
A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand. - Lucius Annaeus Seneca c. 5 BC - 65 AD
----
Good is the enemy of Excellent. Talent is not necessary for Excellence.
Persistence is necessary for Excellence. And Persistence is a Decision.

--

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Eureka, CA
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Re: Anyone here making sourdough bread? Got some questions
Posted by: NewtonMP2100
Date: March 13, 2019 08:32PM
....don't forget......you must be well bread..........



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Re: Anyone here making sourdough bread? Got some questions
Posted by: Racer X
Date: March 13, 2019 09:53PM
here is the real deal. [carlsfriends.net]

[carlsfriends.net]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/13/2019 09:54PM by Racer X.
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Re: Anyone here making sourdough bread? Got some questions
Posted by: Filliam H. Muffman
Date: March 14, 2019 02:48AM
My dad made sourdough at home for several years. He used a bread machine to knead/proof, but he baked it in the regular oven because he didn't like the shape of loafs from the machine. I think he had some of what Racer X linked. There used to be several sources, but I haven't researched it lately.

It's the bread version of purifying/culturing a specific strain of bacteria. If what is growing on day 5-7 doesn't smell right, your mother picked up a bad strain of yeast/bacteria. The portion to discard is a somewhat variable, as is the volume to form into a ball to grow the mother dough, along with how many days to work on refining the mother. If you are lucky, and the temps are right, you should be able to start a loaf of bread on day 7.

You don't have to throw the 'discard' out, you can incorporate it into something else as long as you bake it and don't mind it being extra tangy. King Arthur recommends using whole wheat or whole rye on day 1, and only discarding half.



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Re: Anyone here making sourdough bread? Got some questions
Posted by: Fritz
Date: March 14, 2019 09:17AM
my starter is made without commercial yeast. it's 100% hydration by weight. IE: 60 gms flour (~1/2c) with 60 gm water. 75% would be 100 gms flour with 75 gms water. And so on. I'm very inexact in measuring.

My initial starters (one AP and one rye) were both started with pineapple juice (not reconstituted). The pineapple juice acid helps to keep the nasty bacteria at bay.

There is reading about this on the fresh loaf by a microbiologist.

There are many way to sourdough



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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/14/2019 09:18AM by Fritz.
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Re: Anyone here making sourdough bread? Got some questions
Posted by: Paul F.
Date: March 14, 2019 10:46AM
Quote
Fritz
There are many way to sourdough

Boy howdy, are there!

Pretty much any way you can get any flour to ferment in any condition with the natural yeasts in the air, on fruit, in the flour, or out of your armpit (yeah, someone tried that... NOT ME!)... will make a "sourdough starter" with enough yeast (and usually some naturally occuring lactobaccilus too) to leaven bread.



Paul F.
-----
A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand. - Lucius Annaeus Seneca c. 5 BC - 65 AD
----
Good is the enemy of Excellent. Talent is not necessary for Excellence.
Persistence is necessary for Excellence. And Persistence is a Decision.

--

--

--
Eureka, CA
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Re: Anyone here making sourdough bread? Got some questions
Posted by: testcase
Date: March 14, 2019 11:05AM
America doesn't "do" metric......... facepalm
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Re: Anyone here making sourdough bread? Got some questions
Posted by: Paul F.
Date: March 14, 2019 12:35PM
Quote
testcase
America doesn't "do" metric......... facepalm

Yeah, we do... we just like to twist the rest of the worlds tail and make them think none of us do.

When I weigh things in the kitchen, I use grams, unless the recipe uses pounds, then it's easier to poke the units button my my scale than to convert. My measuring cups have both units.

The only things that don't are my spoon set and cup/fractional cup measures.



Paul F.
-----
A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand. - Lucius Annaeus Seneca c. 5 BC - 65 AD
----
Good is the enemy of Excellent. Talent is not necessary for Excellence.
Persistence is necessary for Excellence. And Persistence is a Decision.

--

--

--
Eureka, CA
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Re: Anyone here making sourdough bread? Got some questions
Posted by: Filliam H. Muffman
Date: March 14, 2019 04:34PM
Tenths of an ounce on a decent digital scale is fairly accurate, though not quite as precise as grams.

Commercial yeast for flour is likely a different strain than you would get creating the mother any other way. Regular plain commercial yeast apparently doesn't grow much at a lower pH range. Note: there is also commercial sourdough starter that will arrive much quicker than CarlsFriends.

The mention of using pineapple juice nudged me to find this informative article. smile smiley
www.thefreshloaf.com/node/10901/pineapple-juice-solution-part-2

Edit



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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/15/2019 01:12PM by Filliam H. Muffman.
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Re: Anyone here making sourdough bread? Got some questions
Posted by: NewtonMP2100
Date: March 14, 2019 05:21PM
....don't loaf....around......



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