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breaking news?!....fire @ Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris.....
Posted by: NewtonMP2100
Date: April 15, 2019 12:32PM
.....no details yet......



____________________________________________________

I reject your reality and substitute my own!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/15/2019 12:47PM by NewtonMP2100.
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Re: breaking news?!....fire @ Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris.....
Posted by: steve...
Date: April 15, 2019 12:37PM
CNN

The link is buggy for me, live TV coverage is probably your best bet.






Northern California Coast



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/15/2019 12:49PM by steve....
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Re: breaking news?!....fire @ Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris.....
Posted by: Paul F.
Date: April 15, 2019 12:41PM
That picture is making me sick to my stomach... cry smiley



Paul F.
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A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand. - Lucius Annaeus Seneca c. 5 BC - 65 AD
----
Good is the enemy of Excellent. Talent is not necessary for Excellence.
Persistence is necessary for Excellence. And Persistence is a Decision.

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Eureka, CA
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Re: breaking news?!....fire @ Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris.....
Posted by: timg
Date: April 15, 2019 12:46PM
We were there last summer. Pretty depressing to see it burning like that. Hope they can contain the damage ...



Skill without imagination is craftsmanship. Imagination without skill is Modern Art.
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Re: breaking news?!....fire @ Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris.....
Posted by: Blankity Blank
Date: April 15, 2019 12:47PM
They’re fighting to gain control of the fire. (NBC news live link)

Reports of the roof beginning to collapse are starting to come in.

For those not familiar with Notre Dame





Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 04/15/2019 01:13PM by Blankity Blank.
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Re: breaking news?!....fire @ Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris.....
Posted by: samintx
Date: April 15, 2019 12:56PM
So sad. Makes me sick to think of it and like watching a train wreck.
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Re: breaking news?!....fire @ Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris.....
Posted by: Steve G.
Date: April 15, 2019 12:59PM
getting worse. spire has collapsed



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/15/2019 01:00PM by Steve G..
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Re: breaking news?!....fire @ Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris.....
Posted by: Filliam H. Muffman
Date: April 15, 2019 12:59PM
Have not been to visit yet but it's sickening to see. So much history and beautiful architecture going up in flames. I had BBC on in the corner of my monitor. It seems like the anchors are struggling to keep from crying.



In tha 360. MRF User Map
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Re: breaking news?!....fire @ Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris.....
Posted by: 3d
Date: April 15, 2019 01:23PM
Desperate firefighters climbing scaffolding with hoses.

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Re: breaking news?!....fire @ Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris.....
Posted by: NewtonMP2100
Date: April 15, 2019 01:24PM
....they said the spire was collapsing......



____________________________________________________

I reject your reality and substitute my own!
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Re: breaking news?!....fire @ Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris.....
Posted by: Blankity Blank
Date: April 15, 2019 01:29PM
CNN is reporting the spire has collapsed into the interior of the building.
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Re: breaking news?!....fire @ Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris.....
Posted by: N-OS X-tasy!
Date: April 15, 2019 01:32PM
No amount of insurance is enough to cover this loss.



It is what it is.
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Re: breaking news?!....fire @ Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris.....
Posted by: Rolando
Date: April 15, 2019 01:38PM
Quote
Steve G.
getting worse. spire has collapsed

That made my stomach turn.



San Antonio, TX (in the old city)


"All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing."
-- Edmund Burke
“Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented."
-- Eli Weisel

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." Theodore Roosevelt (1918)
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Re: breaking news?!....fire @ Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris.....
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: April 15, 2019 01:45PM
Fire started 10 minutes after the Cathedral closed for the day. Probably saved many lives and the only bright spot in a horrible cultural tragedy. Firefighters scrambling to get the priceless art out of there.
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Re: breaking news?!....fire @ Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris.....
Posted by: samintx
Date: April 15, 2019 01:45PM
Oh, the glass windows....from Medieval times....It doesn't look good for stopping the fire. Walls in question with roof gone.
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Re: breaking news?!....fire @ Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris.....
Posted by: archipirata
Date: April 15, 2019 01:46PM
Can't watch. Just thinking of the irreplaceable art, architecture and history going up in smoke. Ugh.



Athens, OH
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Re: breaking news?!....fire @ Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris.....
Posted by: 3d
Date: April 15, 2019 01:55PM
Of all the relics kept at the Cathedral of Our Lady of Paris (Notre-Dame de Paris), the Crown of Thorns and a piece of the True Cross are the most revered. Their status is unknown as the 850-year-old cathedral goes up in flames.

Relics believed to be a piece of the cross on which Jesus was crucified, as well as the Crown of Thorns he wore, have been kept at the cathedral for centuries. The relics were obtained from the Byzantine Empire in 1238, and brought to Paris by King Louis IX.

[www.rt.com]
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Re: breaking news?!....fire @ Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris.....
Posted by: archipirata
Date: April 15, 2019 02:38PM
Also concerned for the local populace who is in the path of the smoke plume. The roof of the cathedral was covered in hundreds of tons of lead which would, I am assuming, make the smoke toxic.



Athens, OH
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Re: breaking news?!....fire @ Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris.....
Posted by: cbelt3
Date: April 15, 2019 02:47PM
Apparently a construction accident.. the cathedral was undergoing a massive renovation. Still... what an incredible loss.Yes, it can and WILL be rebuilt.
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Re: breaking news?!....fire @ Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris.....
Posted by: rz
Date: April 15, 2019 03:33PM
I'm glad I got a chance to see it a few years ago. So tragic.
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Re: breaking news?!....fire @ Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris.....
Posted by: hal
Date: April 15, 2019 03:50PM
"Today the world has probably lost 3 of the most beautiful stained glass windows ever made:
- The west Rose window (1225).
- The North rose window (1250).
- The South rose window (1250)."

pic: [twitter.com]

I saw video of the spire crashing into the length of the building, a huge fireball went out. It's hopeless - total loss. If they rebuild, it won't be the same thing that was standing yesterday.
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Re: breaking news?!....fire @ Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris.....
Posted by: N-OS X-tasy!
Date: April 15, 2019 03:59PM
Quote
cbelt3
Apparently a construction accident.. the cathedral was undergoing a massive renovation. Still... what an incredible loss.Yes, it can and WILL be rebuilt.

Modern builders do not possess the skill sets require to restore the cathedral to its original condition.



It is what it is.
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Re: breaking news?!....fire @ Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris.....
Posted by: Rick-o
Date: April 15, 2019 04:01PM
Tragic to see something so old and revered gone in a matter of hours.



Mr. Lahey: A lot of people, don’t know how to drink. They drink against the grain of the liquor. And when you drink against the grain of the liquor? You lose.

Randy: What the @#$%& are you talking about?
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Re: breaking news?!....fire @ Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris.....
Posted by: Bernie
Date: April 15, 2019 04:10PM
Crown of thorns is safe

"Amid the devastation taking place on Monday at the Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris, firefighters were able to salvage all of the historic artwork and relics contained in the complex.

The Paris Match, citing a Notre Dame priest, reported the news. While it has been reported that the artwork was saved, it is unknown if there has been any damage to the artwork.

The stained glass windows have stood the test of time, including vandalism and other attempts during the French Revolution. Some of the stained glass windows date back to the early 13th century. In modern times, the stained glass windows are restored every year.

Among the artwork that was reportedly saved was the crown of thorns, which is only displayed on Fridays and during Lent."




Staunton, Virginia
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Re: breaking news?!....fire @ Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris.....
Posted by: Speedy
Date: April 15, 2019 04:59PM
“President Trump tweeted his advice to Paris on Monday: “So horrible to watch the massive fire at Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris. Perhaps flying water tankers could be used to put it out. Must act quickly!”

French fire services tweeted in apparent reply that “dropping water by airplane on this type of building could result in the collapse of the entire structure.”



Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.
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Re: breaking news?!....fire @ Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris.....
Posted by: Blankity Blank
Date: April 15, 2019 06:03PM
Quote
N-OS X-tasy!
Quote
cbelt3
Apparently a construction accident.. the cathedral was undergoing a massive renovation. Still... what an incredible loss.Yes, it can and WILL be rebuilt.

Modern builders do not possess the skill sets require to restore the cathedral to its original condition.

I know there’s always questions about materials, etc., but even boffins from this field couldn’t at least get within spitting distance?

Reconstruction is a term in architectural conservation whose precise meaning varies, depending on the context in which they are used.

More broadly, such as under the ICOMOS Burra Charter, "reconstruction" means returning a damaged building to a known earlier state by the introduction of new materials.[1] It is related to the architectural concepts of restoration (repairing existing building fabric) and preservation (the prevention of further decay), wherein the most extensive form of reconstruction is creating a replica of a destroyed building.
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Re: breaking news?!....fire @ Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris.....
Posted by: N-OS X-tasy!
Date: April 15, 2019 06:29PM
Quote
Blankity Blank
Quote
N-OS X-tasy!
Quote
cbelt3
Apparently a construction accident.. the cathedral was undergoing a massive renovation. Still... what an incredible loss.Yes, it can and WILL be rebuilt.

Modern builders do not possess the skill sets require to restore the cathedral to its original condition.

I know there’s always questions about materials, etc., but even boffins from this field couldn’t at least get within spitting distance?

Reconstruction is a term in architectural conservation whose precise meaning varies, depending on the context in which they are used.

More broadly, such as under the ICOMOS Burra Charter, "reconstruction" means returning a damaged building to a known earlier state by the introduction of new materials.[1] It is related to the architectural concepts of restoration (repairing existing building fabric) and preservation (the prevention of further decay), wherein the most extensive form of reconstruction is creating a replica of a destroyed building.

Therein lies the rub: A replica of Notre-Dame will be neither as interesting nor as architecturally significant as the original building.

The building that burned today had a wood frame that was designed a millennium ago. If Notre-Dame is restored (which it almost assuredly will be), the likelihood that the same design and construction techniques and materials used for the original structure will be used for the reconstruction are essentially zero, for two primary reasons: a) modern building codes would not permit it, and b) we very likely don't possess the knowledge to do so.

Thus, the restored structure will be but a facsimile of the original. The architectural history and significance embodied by the original structure? Gone. It will be nice to have a building that looks like the original, but it will merely be a representation of the architectural wonder that was Notre-Dame.

(It seems the flying buttresses and the bell towers were spared from today's fire, so the architectural and historical significance of those features remains. However, if I remember my history correctly, the entire purpose of the flying buttresses was to support and reinforce the exterior walls of the structure, as the original wood frame was not strong enough to support them on its own. If the building's frame is reconstructed using modern materials and methods it will assuredly be able to support the walls on its own, thus eliminating the need for the flying buttresses and relegating them to simple decorative elements.)



It is what it is.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/15/2019 06:30PM by N-OS X-tasy!.
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Re: breaking news?!....fire @ Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris.....
Posted by: Dennis S
Date: April 15, 2019 06:37PM
My cousin and her husband were supposed to see it tomorrow. Luckily, I saw it in the 90's.
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Re: breaking news?!....fire @ Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris.....
Posted by: vision63
Date: April 15, 2019 06:38PM
Many of the 21 California Missions fell in earthquakes or burned down and were "restored." They don't feel any less significant than the ones that have survived intact (I've visited them all). The Notre Dame burning down actually "adds" to his significance. It's part of its history.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/15/2019 06:39PM by vision63.
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Re: breaking news?!....fire @ Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris.....
Posted by: DeusxMac
Date: April 15, 2019 07:11PM
“Modern builders do not possess the skill sets require to restore...the likelihood that the same design and construction techniques and materials used for the original structure will be used for the reconstruction are essentially zero, for two primary reasons: a) modern building codes would not permit it, and b) we very likely don't possess the knowledge to do so.”

These assertions seem extremely presumptuous, and ignore the accumulated knowledge and capabilities of the professionals who have been engaged in such historical construction work for centuries now.
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Re: breaking news?!....fire @ Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris.....
Posted by: Rolando
Date: April 15, 2019 07:15PM
This loss is incalculable to the French (and humanity). ONE of the reasons the French surrendered to the Nazis was to preserve Notre Dame (and other landmarks) from Nazi Bombs and Artillery!



San Antonio, TX (in the old city)


"All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing."
-- Edmund Burke
“Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented."
-- Eli Weisel

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." Theodore Roosevelt (1918)
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Re: breaking news?!....fire @ Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris.....
Posted by: N-OS X-tasy!
Date: April 15, 2019 07:43PM
Quote
DeusxMac
“Modern builders do not possess the skill sets require to restore...the likelihood that the same design and construction techniques and materials used for the original structure will be used for the reconstruction are essentially zero, for two primary reasons: a) modern building codes would not permit it, and b) we very likely don't possess the knowledge to do so.”

These assertions seem extremely presumptuous, and ignore the accumulated knowledge and capabilities of the professionals who have been engaged in such historical construction work for centuries now.

Many ancient fabrication methodologies have been lost to time or fallen out of favor -- Google "Roman concrete" and "Damascus steel" for a couple of examples. Construction of the Egyptian pyramids is another example. Sometimes when we stop doing something a certain way, over time we forget how to do it that way.

As to my other point, if your argument is that modern building codes would permit the replacement building frame to be rebuilt exactly the same as the original... that's just silly.



It is what it is.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/15/2019 07:45PM by N-OS X-tasy!.
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Re: breaking news?!....fire @ Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris.....
Posted by: Ombligo
Date: April 15, 2019 07:55PM
The rebuilding can be accomplished in the same manner that the cities of Germany were rebuilt following WW2. This is the cathedral in Dresden in 1946 and then rebuilt in the '90s following the fall of communism--



So never say never



“No persons are more frequently wrong, than those who will not admit they are wrong.”
-- François de La Rochefoucauld

"WE CALL BS!" -- Emma Gonzalez
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Re: breaking news?!....fire @ Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris.....
Posted by: DeusxMac
Date: April 15, 2019 08:48PM
Quote
N-OS X-tasy!
Quote
DeusxMac
“Modern builders do not possess the skill sets require to restore...the likelihood that the same design and construction techniques and materials used for the original structure will be used for the reconstruction are essentially zero, for two primary reasons: a) modern building codes would not permit it, and b) we very likely don't possess the knowledge to do so.”

These assertions seem extremely presumptuous, and ignore the accumulated knowledge and capabilities of the professionals who have been engaged in such historical construction work for centuries now.

Many ancient fabrication methodologies have been lost to time or fallen out of favor -- Google "Roman concrete" and "Damascus steel" for a couple of examples. Construction of the Egyptian pyramids is another example. Sometimes when we stop doing something a certain way, over time we forget how to do it that way.

Those Ancient Egyptian and Roman building practices were centuries and centuries before Norte Dame was constructed, and please note the the spire that collapsed today had already been rebuilt in the 19th century.

Quote
N-OS X-tasy!
As to my other point, if your argument is that modern building codes would permit the replacement building frame to be rebuilt exactly the same as the original... that's just silly.

Do you seriously assert that that the French government and the city of Paris would authorize absolutely no exemptions nor variances for restoration of this world renowned historical landmark? That’s just silly.
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Re: breaking news?!....fire @ Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris.....
Posted by: Grateful11
Date: April 15, 2019 08:58PM
My heart sank when I heard about the fire. I've always wanted to visit Paris and see Notre Dame but some are saying it could take nearly a generation to repair. Not sure I'll be around or able to travel that far down the road. Travel is difficult for me now.



Grateful11
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Re: breaking news?!....fire @ Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris.....
Posted by: blooz
Date: April 15, 2019 09:24PM
This wasn't just "a cathedral." It is the cathedral one thinks of first when that word is uttered. There are larger, perhaps more beautiful, cathedrals, but not even St. Peters carries the history, conflict, emotion and aspiration of Notre Dame.
Also, thanks to Victor Hugo, it had Quasimodo. I think that old movie with Charles Laughton gave me a love for the place that years of study in art history couldn't erase.



And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once.
—Friedrich Nietzsche
Western Massachusetts
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Re: breaking news?!....fire @ Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris.....
Posted by: Michael
Date: April 16, 2019 05:30AM
Quote
DeusxMac
Do you seriously assert that that the French government and the city of Paris would authorize absolutely no exemptions nor variances for restoration of this world renowned historical landmark?

I really hope they get a pass on modern building codes. I'd bet there are some craftspeople who can do this type of work right now. I'll bet there will be careers spent on the rebuild by young people who learn the appropriate crafts needed and then spend decades rebuilding it. At least I hope so!
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Re: breaking news?!....fire @ Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris.....
Posted by: Mr Downtown
Date: April 16, 2019 06:12PM
Quote
N-OS X-tasy!
if I remember my history correctly, the entire purpose of the flying buttresses was to support and reinforce the exterior walls of the structure, as the original wood frame was not strong enough to support them on its own. If the building's frame is reconstructed using modern materials and methods it will assuredly be able to support the walls on its own, thus eliminating the need for the flying buttresses and relegating them to simple decorative elements.)

Flying buttresses keep tall stone walls from bowing outward under the weight of the roof. The wooden roof supports may also (in some structures) also hold the tops of the walls in tension, but typically they have no role in support of the walls themselves. During construction, it's likely the walls stood for many decades without a roof.

Building code waivers can be granted, especially when discussing the patrimony of a nation. Every issue of Preservation magazine has a couple of stories telling how historic structures were creatively brought into compliance with modern life safety standards.
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Re: breaking news?!....fire @ Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris.....
Posted by: NewtonMP2100
Date: April 16, 2019 06:25PM
....any time that you have things flying out of your buttresses.......



____________________________________________________

I reject your reality and substitute my own!
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Re: breaking news?!....fire @ Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris.....
Posted by: Rolando
Date: April 16, 2019 10:56PM
Quote
Ombligo
The rebuilding can be accomplished in the same manner that the cities of Germany were rebuilt following WW2. This is the cathedral in Dresden in 1946 and then rebuilt in the '90s following the fall of communism--



So never say never

I know about the bombing of Dresden, and the resulting firestorm, but not that! WOW! Thanks!



San Antonio, TX (in the old city)


"All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing."
-- Edmund Burke
“Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented."
-- Eli Weisel

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." Theodore Roosevelt (1918)
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Re: breaking news?!....fire @ Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris.....
Posted by: N-OS X-tasy!
Date: April 17, 2019 10:56AM
This L.A. Times article addresses some of the same points I made in earlier posts to this thread: [www.latimes.com]



It is what it is.
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