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speaking about wine: say one wanted to start a wine collection
Posted by: space-time
Date: May 17, 2019 03:10PM
… and keep some wine for 10,20 or maybe even 30 years (not many of us will be alive in 30 years, but our children could sell them). So what would you buy and how would you store it?

is it OK to store it in bottles, or it should stay in a larger barrel and put into bottles before being sold?
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Re: speaking about wine: say one wanted to start a wine collection
Posted by: mattkime
Date: May 17, 2019 03:21PM
Franzia



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Re: speaking about wine: say one wanted to start a wine collection
Posted by: rz
Date: May 17, 2019 03:29PM
Unless you know what you're doing, I don't think wine is a good investment vehicle.
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Re: speaking about wine: say one wanted to start a wine collection
Posted by: WHiiP
Date: May 17, 2019 03:35PM
Keep reading. Very little wine of an affordable cost will last even 10 years. And to get lucky with a chance for that to happen you need a room that is well insulated, temperature controlled to at least 59ºF, and controlled humidity.

Now you get to a $100.00 a bottle and 10 to 20 years is a possibility with the above-controlled environment.

After that, you need a true Connoisseur to guide you in what to buy. And hope that they are not a con person or a crook!

Good luck.

smiley-signs003



Bill
Flagler Beach, FL 32136

Carpe Vino!

Fermentation may have been a greater discovery than fire.
— David Rains Wallace
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Re: speaking about wine: say one wanted to start a wine collection
Posted by: Ombligo
Date: May 17, 2019 03:41PM
The taste of some wines can't help but improve by being left untouched in the bottle.





“No persons are more frequently wrong, than those who will not admit they are wrong.”
-- François de La Rochefoucauld

"WE CALL BS!" -- Emma Gonzalez
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Re: speaking about wine: say one wanted to start a wine collection
Posted by: cbelt3
Date: May 17, 2019 03:45PM
You're getting into lots of struggle and fancy here. Easier to collect Macintoshes...
Wine cellar.... environmental controls, monitoring, cataloging, etc... And then finding the wines, buying them, storing them, etc...

It's more fun to just have a cool spot in the basement where you can stack a rack of bottles. Go to a winery tasting and buy a mixed case of what you like. Ask them about storage and vintage. Keep drinking and going around to wineries. That's the fun part. NEVER buy retail... that's a sucker's game.

FWIW I just get the cheapest plonk I can find, usually at Aldi. My family likes sweet white wines like a Riesling or a Moscato, and those don't keep at all.
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Re: speaking about wine: say one wanted to start a wine collection
Posted by: Buzz
Date: May 17, 2019 03:58PM
A lot of it is luck. My folks went to the wine country (Napa Valley) quite a bit, and bought cases of what they liked, and what they thought would age well. They threw a lot of dinner parties, so it mostly went to good use. For all the "collecting" they did, they only hit it big three times, and sold two of those, mostly as proof of concept (and to increase supply for future parties).

My observation was, that it was a fun thing to do for them, but as others note, not an ideal investment vehicle. For my folks, it was a good excuse for a road trip, and to get away from us rotten kids for a couple of days. Get a subscription to Wine Spectator, and follow their advice... it's as good a deal on advice as you're gonna get.
==
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Re: speaking about wine: say one wanted to start a wine collection
Posted by: mrbigstuff
Date: May 17, 2019 04:23PM
The best thing about the endeavor is that you can buy a bottle, and if you like it enough, buy a case. And there's usually a standard 10%discount on a case.

Most wine will age well, wines with more tannins tend to age better, but there are exceptions to that rule, too.

The wine I kept was in less than ideal conditions, and was spectacular when uncorked. And, speaking of that, you will lose some bottles to bad cork. But all of this should not be a deterrent at all.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/17/2019 04:28PM by mrbigstuff.
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Re: speaking about wine: say one wanted to start a wine collection
Posted by: mrbigstuff
Date: May 17, 2019 04:30PM
Oh, you can't keep wine on oak, or any other wood for that long, it would taste completely awful. Bottles are the only way a consumer can keep wine for any period.

I hope you try
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Re: speaking about wine: say one wanted to start a wine collection
Posted by: numbered
Date: May 17, 2019 04:33PM
Echoing a few comments, almost no American wines, or for that matter wines from anywhere but a couple of places in France, are made with the intention of lasting more than a few years. Winemakers will tell you that they need to sell their more expensive bottles into the restaurant business (where expense accounts can cover expensive bottles), and restaurants want to carry bottles that turn over. Indeed, most wine drinkers rarely give nice bottles more than 5 years or so at the outside.

A related issue is that most wine drinkers are attracted to the 'fruit' tastes which are hard to sustain over time. And the fruit is the first thing to go. Long lived wines have to be balanced with considerable acidity and the wonder of old wine is the complexity and the barely apparent fruit along with tannins and other flavors.

The exceptions are Premier Cru French Bordeaux wines (that taste a lot like creosote when young), very expensive French burgundies (arguably the most expensive wines in the world as a class), and a very few French Rhone wines.

It was not always thus, but the need to repay the investment in expensive vineyard land means wineries need to see their bottles consumed soon.

If you really want to invest in this direction, I would consider vintage ports as the risks are much lower.
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Re: speaking about wine: say one wanted to start a wine collection
Posted by: MikeF
Date: May 17, 2019 05:44PM
I would avoid anything in a box.
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Re: speaking about wine: say one wanted to start a wine collection
Posted by: anonymouse1
Date: May 17, 2019 07:58PM
There are high end California, Aussie, and Chilean wines that will age well for 20 years...

Quote
numbered
Echoing a few comments, almost no American wines, or for that matter wines from anywhere but a couple of places in France, are made with the intention of lasting more than a few years. Winemakers will tell you that they need to sell their more expensive bottles into the restaurant business (where expense accounts can cover expensive bottles), and restaurants want to carry bottles that turn over. Indeed, most wine drinkers rarely give nice bottles more than 5 years or so at the outside.

A related issue is that most wine drinkers are attracted to the 'fruit' tastes which are hard to sustain over time. And the fruit is the first thing to go. Long lived wines have to be balanced with considerable acidity and the wonder of old wine is the complexity and the barely apparent fruit along with tannins and other flavors.

The exceptions are Premier Cru French Bordeaux wines (that taste a lot like creosote when young), very expensive French burgundies (arguably the most expensive wines in the world as a class), and a very few French Rhone wines.

It was not always thus, but the need to repay the investment in expensive vineyard land means wineries need to see their bottles consumed soon.

If you really want to invest in this direction, I would consider vintage ports as the risks are much lower.
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Re: speaking about wine: say one wanted to start a wine collection
Posted by: numbered
Date: May 17, 2019 08:07PM
Quote
anonymouse1
There are high end California, Aussie, and Chilean wines that will age well for 20 years...

I think that is right. At least a few. But the few California cabs that qualify have 20 as an outside edge. You can see them in high end stores. But sales are slow because the risk/reward of storage.

And I stand by my comments for the general case, especially the boutique Cali vineyards.

Buy wine you like and keep it for several years, and you will be rewarded. Trying to keep it for a generation is a much dicier proposition.
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Re: speaking about wine: say one wanted to start a wine collection
Posted by: space-time
Date: May 17, 2019 08:25PM
Quote
numbered
...

Buy wine you like and keep it for several years, and you will be rewarded. Trying to keep it for a generation is a much dicier proposition.

OK let's get to the real question. Maybe this should have been the FIRST question in this thread.

Why are older wines more expensive? I assume because they get better, the supply decreases, and most likely a combination of both of these.

But what is the primary reason for such high prices? the wines are really good, or they become very rare?

If I like say Apothic Red today, which is only $10-11/bottle but we like it a lot, would it make sense to buy some botgles now and keep for 3-5 years? would it taste so much better than the Apothic Red we could buy in 2024, for probably $12-13 a bottle at that time?
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Re: speaking about wine: say one wanted to start a wine collection
Posted by: WHiiP
Date: May 17, 2019 09:40PM
Apothic Red "might" improve for one or two years. The main problem I have with Apothic Red is it is a blend as opposed to a varietal like Cabernet Sauvignon. I don't have a lot of faith in "Blends" improving much over time.

I have a great deal of faith in a Cabernet, Pinot Noir, and/or Zinfandel improving significantly over 5 years. I'm speaking of affordable wines that need to be consumed at the 5-year mark or earlier.

peace



Bill
Flagler Beach, FL 32136

Carpe Vino!

Fermentation may have been a greater discovery than fire.
— David Rains Wallace
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Re: speaking about wine: say one wanted to start a wine collection
Posted by: blooz
Date: May 18, 2019 07:37AM
I tried starting a collection once, but I couldn't let the bottles alone long enough.



And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once.
—Friedrich Nietzsche
Western Massachusetts
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Re: speaking about wine: say one wanted to start a wine collection
Posted by: NewtonMP2100
Date: May 18, 2019 11:26AM
....as investment, nope.....if you like wine and want to keep some and your income allows, then do it.......



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I reject your reality and substitute my own!
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Re: speaking about wine: say one wanted to start a wine collection
Posted by: numbered
Date: May 18, 2019 11:35AM
Quote

Why are older wines more expensive? I assume because they get better, the supply decreases, and most likely a combination of both of these.

Another key part is the 'look at me' idea of high end labels. These bottles are often used to display that you are willing to spend, say on clients.

Aging wine (that is made to be aged) softens tannins and generates complex flavors. And some people prefer this softer experience. Wine that is not meant to be aged (often with insufficient acid) gets a tired and then 'off' taste. Not vinegar (almost all winemakers add sulfites to stop this), but a kind of meh flavor.

I know of no wine with a price of less than $50 that will live more than 10 years. Anything $30 or less is made to be consumed in the next few years. Most wines under $15 should be consumed in 5 years or less.
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Re: speaking about wine: say one wanted to start a wine collection
Posted by: davemchine
Date: May 18, 2019 12:13PM
We don’t drink wine very often but when we remodeled the kitchen we put in a wine fridge. I just picked up good label wines when they were on sale at the grocery store. Now the fridge is full and temperature controlled for long term storage. Maybe I’ll start breaking one out at special occasions.

A friend of mine who drinks a lot more wine belongs to a few winery clubs were they get discounts on a case and access to special releases. I believe he just stores the wine in the basement. He plays in the $60/bottle range so I assume he knows what he is doing. He also likes to decant his wine and claims it makes a big difference.
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Re: speaking about wine: say one wanted to start a wine collection
Posted by: richorlin
Date: May 18, 2019 01:39PM
Quote
cbelt3
NEVER buy retail... that's a sucker's game.

Unless you're wine-shopping at Trader Joe's or Costco.
Both places have decent wines at affordable prices. No need to go to a winery.
At TJ, the Terrain for $4.99 is very drinkable. Stay away from the Charles Shaw ("Two-buck Chuck") unless you plan to use it in cooking.



richorlin

[DrawingMyLife.com]

[www.dudeism.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/18/2019 01:40PM by richorlin.
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Re: speaking about wine: say one wanted to start a wine collection
Posted by: Rolando
Date: May 18, 2019 10:10PM


San Antonio, TX (in the old city)


"All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing."
-- Edmund Burke
“Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented."
-- Eli Weisel

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." Theodore Roosevelt (1918)
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Re: speaking about wine: say one wanted to start a wine collection
Posted by: stephen
Date: May 20, 2019 11:37AM
I write a blog about Argentinean wines. I am an enthusiast but not an expert.

80% of wine on the market is meant to be enjoyed within a year or two.

Only "icon" wines from top wineries tend to have the structure to lay down for 10-30 years.

In Argentina those wines would include

Cheval des Andes
Nicola Catena Zapata
Terrazas Los Compuertas Single Vineyard
Catena Malbec Argentino
-other Catena wines $100 plus
Cuvelier los Andes Grand Malbec
Trapiche single vineyard series
El Enemigo's higher end ($50 plus) wines
Paul Hobbs Vina Cobos "Cobos"
Paul Hobbs Vina Cobos "Bramare" single vineyard series
Fabre Montmayou Grand Vin
Caro
Val de Flores



I would carefully follow recommendations from Wine Advocate, Tim Atkin, etc. for "drink by" dates.
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