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Delays in Boeing Max Return Began With Near-Crash in Simulator
Posted by: Speedy
Date: November 08, 2019 04:40PM
The complete article, not just my excerpt, is worth a read.

[finance.yahoo.com]

“(Bloomberg) -- Boeing Co. engineers were nearly done redesigning software on the grounded 737 Max in June when some pilots hopped into a simulator to test a few things.

It didn’t go well.

A simulated computer glitch caused it to to dive aggressively in a way that resembled the problem that had caused deadly crashes off Indonesia and in Ethiopia months earlier.

That led to an extensive redesign of the plane’s flight computers that has dragged on for months and repeatedly pushed back the date of its return to service, according to people briefed on the work. The company -- which initially expressed confidence it could complete its application to recertify the plane with the Federal Aviation Administration within months -- now says it hopes to do that before the end of the year.

Changing the architecture of the jet’s twin flight computers, which drive autopilots and critical instruments, has proven far more laborious than patching the system directly involved in 737 Max crashes, said these people, who asked not to be named speaking about the issue.

The redesign has also sparked tensions between aviation regulators and the company. As recently as this week, the FAA and European Aviation Safety Agency asked for more documentation of the changes to the computers, said one of the people, potentially delaying the certification further.”



Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.
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Re: Delays in Boeing Max Return Began With Near-Crash in Simulator
Posted by: jonny
Date: November 08, 2019 05:15PM
Who would have thought it would be so difficult!
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Re: Delays in Boeing Max Return Began With Near-Crash in Simulator
Posted by: space-time
Date: November 08, 2019 05:20PM
I believe this plane should never be allowed to fly.
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Re: Delays in Boeing Max Return Began With Near-Crash in Simulator
Posted by: Filliam H. Muffman
Date: November 08, 2019 05:48PM
At this point I think the problem might be a combination of a software admin that never worked on a brand new flight computer, and offshoring the software in a process that so that no U.S. employee had a true understanding of entire system.

I just wonder where they are in the development cycle, and if they need to throw out the current flight computer/sensors and start fresh. I think the plane will be safe to fly, but maybe not with the current flight computer.



In tha 360. MRF User Map
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Re: Delays in Boeing Max Return Began With Near-Crash in Simulator
Posted by: MrNoBody
Date: November 08, 2019 07:38PM
Boeing Co. engineers were nearly done redesigning software...
Former Microsoft employees??
smiley-shocked003

Quote
space-time
I believe this plane should never be allowed to fly.
Unless an independent inspection team can certify it. And I'm not talking FAA nor
a Boeing contractor.
I'm also concerned what other Boeing products (civilian & military) have hidden
defects no one has been unlucky enough to discover yet.



N39° 39.7234', W075° 33.9788'
...word salad is not a disorder, it is a symptom...

“If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't understand it yourself.”
-Albert Einstein

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Re: Delays in Boeing Max Return Began With Near-Crash in Simulator
Posted by: DP
Date: November 09, 2019 08:11AM
My first thought is to just remove the software causing the issue and let the pilots fly the plane.

How naive of me...





Disclaimer: This post is checked for correct spelling, punctuation, and grammar. Any attempts at humor are solely the responsibility of the author and bear no claim that any and all readers will approve or appreciate said attempt at humor.
My name is DP, and I approve this message.
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Re: Delays in Boeing Max Return Began With Near-Crash in Simulator
Posted by: Filliam H. Muffman
Date: November 09, 2019 10:28AM
Quote
DP
My first thought is to just remove the software causing the issue and let the pilots fly the plane.

How naive of me...

The fuel savings of this model was largely dependent on the computer exactly controlling engine power, climb rate, altitude, and speed.



In tha 360. MRF User Map
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Re: Delays in Boeing Max Return Began With Near-Crash in Simulator
Posted by: JoeH
Date: November 09, 2019 12:13PM
Quote
Filliam H. Muffman
Quote
DP
My first thought is to just remove the software causing the issue and let the pilots fly the plane.

How naive of me...

The fuel savings of this model was largely dependent on the computer exactly controlling engine power, climb rate, altitude, and speed.

And because the engines were that much bigger in diameter, the mounting pylons were redesigned to put them farther forward and higher in relation to the wings. That introduced a tendency to pitch up, the computer had automatic controls added to counter that instability.

The pilots could do that, but they would have to monitor the plane's attitude constantly. During takeoff and landing the adjustments would be continuous, and they are already loaded with other tasks to do during those periods.
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Re: Delays in Boeing Max Return Began With Near-Crash in Simulator
Posted by: jonny
Date: November 09, 2019 12:26PM
Quote
JoeH
Quote
Filliam H. Muffman
Quote
DP
My first thought is to just remove the software causing the issue and let the pilots fly the plane.

How naive of me...

The fuel savings of this model was largely dependent on the computer exactly controlling engine power, climb rate, altitude, and speed.

And because the engines were that much bigger in diameter, the mounting pylons were redesigned to put them farther forward and higher in relation to the wings. That introduced a tendency to pitch up, the computer had automatic controls added to counter that instability.

The pilots could do that, but they would have to monitor the plane's attitude constantly. During takeoff and landing the adjustments would be continuous, and they are already loaded with other tasks to do during those periods.

No trim adjust?
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Re: Delays in Boeing Max Return Began With Near-Crash in Simulator
Posted by: Sarcany
Date: November 09, 2019 01:24PM
Quote
Filliam H. Muffman
I just wonder where they are in the development cycle, and if they need to throw out the current flight computer/sensors and start fresh. I think the plane will be safe to fly, but maybe not with the current flight computer.

It looks like they rushed out the 737 MAX when Airbus got ahead of them with the fuel-efficient A320. Suddenly, they needed a small fuel-efficient plane to fill that gap in their line and they only had big planes on the board. Looks like they cut corners to get it to market quickly. Should have taken a decade to work on the thing.

But they had contracts that allowed domestic carriers to jump to Airbus if they couldn't fill orders with Boeing planes and Boeing's management couldn't bring themselves to let Airbus have an inch.

The next-gen narrow-body replacement is due in 2030.

If they had any guts or ethics, they'd drop the MAX and work on renegotiating those contracts, take the hit to their bottom-line and make that 2030 plane the gold-standard. They've got the cash and leverage to keep going and they've got the engineers to do it right.



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Re: Delays in Boeing Max Return Began With Near-Crash in Simulator
Posted by: sekker
Date: November 09, 2019 01:58PM
I’m watching our own version of this software design approach. Literally no single human knows how the code works.
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Re: Delays in Boeing Max Return Began With Near-Crash in Simulator
Posted by: JoeH
Date: November 09, 2019 02:55PM
Quote
jonny
Quote
JoeH
Quote
Filliam H. Muffman
Quote
DP
My first thought is to just remove the software causing the issue and let the pilots fly the plane.

How naive of me...

The fuel savings of this model was largely dependent on the computer exactly controlling engine power, climb rate, altitude, and speed.

And because the engines were that much bigger in diameter, the mounting pylons were redesigned to put them farther forward and higher in relation to the wings. That introduced a tendency to pitch up, the computer had automatic controls added to counter that instability.

The pilots could do that, but they would have to monitor the plane's attitude constantly. During takeoff and landing the adjustments would be continuous, and they are already loaded with other tasks to do during those periods.

No trim adjust?

They would have to change the trim adjust frequently, it is not just something that is steady and can be set and left. In near constant speed level flight it is not an issue, but it would be different at different air speeds, power settings, angle of attack, and other flight parameters.

Basically the computer control for attitude was constantly changing the trim for the pilots when it was working correctly. The intent was for the 737 Max to appear to handle the same as a prior 737 model, especially in high angle of attack flight modes such as takeoff and landing.

They also tied turning off this attitude control circuit to turning off electrically assisted trim. A manual trim control is not strong enough to work in all flight conditions. So the pilot could either have insufficient trim adjust, or have a malfunctioning auto-adjust because there was just a single switch that controlled both.
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Re: Delays in Boeing Max Return Began With Near-Crash in Simulator
Posted by: Carnos Jax
Date: November 09, 2019 05:38PM
Quote
JoeH
The intent was for the 737 Max to appear to handle the same as a prior 737 model, especially in high angle of attack flight modes such as takeoff and landing.

^^^And this is the key to the whole debacle. Boeing did this so they could maintain the same type rating to the previous model of the 737, lest airlines incur larger training costs for pilots transitioning to the newer model. The reason n they HAD to do this is because the bigger engines of the Max, and the subsequent ground clearance requirements it imposed, forced Being to position the engine such that it caused the afore mentioned handling changes in the way the aircraft behaved.

The shame of it all is that despite these efforts, the 737 is still limited significantly by it’s inability to accommodate even higher bypass engines, relative to the Airbus A320 family. As a result it is less efficient to operate in terms of fuel. Boeing really needs to start over with a clean sheet design. The Max will be the final iteration of the 737 family. And no one should be sad.....that design has been milked for 50-60 (maybe 70?) years now.
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