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P-shop hell
Posted by: Surfrider
Date: January 12, 2020 12:17PM
I have a Mini now running Catalina 10.15.2

525GB Mac HD
1TB Desktop HD

I was running Adobe Creative Suite 4, it did what I needed it to do.

I fell for the "upgrade now!" popups and downloaded Catalina 10.15.2, from a slightly older version, 10.14?
Installed the upgrade, so now all my Adobe programs are nixed. Catalina isn't doing anything remarkable, so an older OS would be fine.

I have a couple of desktop HD's available.

I don't want to pay a monthly fee for the latest and greatest Adobe products. CS 4 works, or worked, fine for me.

So, I'm in a state of pain, I can't open any P-shop doc I've already made.

What would you do, given my situation?

It's almost as if I need to re-install an older OS (from where?) so I can use CS 4.

Please suggest a way out of this, yes I know I can subscribe to Adobe but it's expensive and I don't need the newest sparkly version of Adobe products.

Thank you.
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Re: P-shop hell
Posted by: modelamac
Date: January 12, 2020 12:25PM
Boot into your cloned backup of your older OS. Clone it back to the Catalina drive with Carbon Copy Cloner. Now boot into your newly cloned drive and you are back in business.



Gonna ask my Mother if that offer to slap
me into next year is still on the table.
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Re: P-shop hell
Posted by: JoeM
Date: January 12, 2020 02:28PM
What modelamac said. I’m running PS CS 6 and I’ve staying at EL Cap, with PS working fine. According to posts I’ve read, going any further can introduce problems so I expect it’s the same with CS4. You need to get back to the last OS you were using where PS was stable.



JoeM
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Re: P-shop hell
Posted by: GGD
Date: January 12, 2020 02:44PM
And running from a non-admin user by default may help prevent the installation of malware like this that disables your important applications.

I'm still trying to get an iPhone that's running iOS 12 to stop downloading and offering to install iOS 13 for me. I've deleted the download each time it tried, and finally I've resorted to turning OFF WiFi EVERY time I connect it to a charger, so it won't download the newer version. It still asks me once a day if I want to download and install it, hoping that I'll accidentally tell it to proceed.
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Re: P-shop hell
Posted by: Ombligo
Date: January 12, 2020 05:31PM
Quote
JoeM
What modelamac said. I’m running PS CS 6 and I’ve staying at EL Cap, with PS working fine. According to posts I’ve read, going any further can introduce problems so I expect it’s the same with CS4. You need to get back to the last OS you were using where PS was stable.

I'm using CS6 with Mojave and no issues beyond a message saying it isn't optimized upon startup. I will not go to Catalina though.



“No persons are more frequently wrong, than those who will not admit they are wrong.”
-- François de La Rochefoucauld
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Re: P-shop hell
Posted by: ka jowct
Date: January 12, 2020 06:07PM
Quote
JoeM
What modelamac said. I’m running PS CS 6 and I’ve staying at EL Cap, with PS working fine. According to posts I’ve read, going any further can introduce problems so I expect it’s the same with CS4. You need to get back to the last OS you were using where PS was stable.

I'm using CS5 and CS6 with Sierra. No plans to go to another OS.



My life goes smoothly and in regular intervals
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Re: P-shop hell
Posted by: jdc
Date: January 12, 2020 06:44PM
Are you just using PS? Or the rest of the suite?



----


Edited 999 time(s). Last edit at 12:08PM by jdc.
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Re: P-shop hell
Posted by: Sarcany
Date: January 13, 2020 11:05AM
So, you don't have any backups?

...Any reason other than "don't want to" that you can't just cave and go for the $10/month photography plan?



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Re: P-shop hell
Posted by: Surfrider
Date: January 13, 2020 12:29PM
I retrieved a copy from Time Machine and got it to start using OSX 10.14

Do I leave the 10.14 on my outboard HD or put it back in the internal HD ?

I use P-Shop and Illustrator.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/13/2020 12:36PM by Surfrider.
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Re: P-shop hell
Posted by: Surfrider
Date: January 13, 2020 12:44PM
I don't have Carbon Clone.
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Re: P-shop hell
Posted by: datbeme
Date: January 13, 2020 01:21PM
Beyond the obvious reasons such as drive failure, corruption or user error, having reliable clone backups is critical when installing a new OS. Not to lecture if you don't have one to revert to, but this is also an important reminder to others who may forget to keep a working version of a previous OS just in case.

IF you do not have one, the first thing I would do is use CCC or SuperDuper to clone your Catalina boot drive to one of those externals. Don't worry about fixing Photoshop or reverting your OS until you've done that.

Next, open up the Mac App Store, go to the Purchased tab and see which earlier Mac OS versions are listed. Any OS that you previously downloaded or installed through the App Store should show up there. Clicking "install" or "download" in the App Store window won't actually start the installation, but it will download the installation package to your hard drive. From there, you *should* be able to install an earlier OS on an external disk, preferably an SSD.

*Someone else may want to confirm this. I have only tested out installing newer OS verisons on external drives, but I assume it will work if the Mini originally supported the earlier OS.

Hopefully you still have the CS4 installation disk. I don't know what OS version still played nicely with it, but I'd be surprised if you were running 10.14 (Mojave). I am on CS5.5 and I only recently, very cautiously upgraded to 10.13 (High Sierra). No major problems so far, but I wouldn't dare have made the move without 2 SSD clone backups of my previous boot drive 10.11 (El Capitan). In fact, I still have some OS 10.9 Mavericks versions just in case. I will eventually get rid of the Mavericks copies, but as a precaution, I do plan to keep a lean, working boot drive with a handful of legacy apps.
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Re: P-shop hell
Posted by: jdc
Date: January 13, 2020 04:56PM
Quote
Surfrider

I use P-Shop and Illustrator.

If it was PS only, Id say the $10 a month PS/LR plan from Adobe is a steal.

Although the drawing tools in PS are near the level of many basic Illustrator functions.... you could get away with PS only.

If you arent willing to pony up the $10/mo -- you should look into Affinty Photo and Designer -- prob you best bet at this time.



----


Edited 999 time(s). Last edit at 12:08PM by jdc.
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Re: P-shop hell
Posted by: pdq
Date: January 13, 2020 08:23PM
Quote
ka jowct
Quote
JoeM
What modelamac said. I’m running PS CS 6 and I’ve staying at EL Cap, with PS working fine. According to posts I’ve read, going any further can introduce problems so I expect it’s the same with CS4. You need to get back to the last OS you were using where PS was stable.

I'm using CS5 and CS6 with Sierra. No plans to go to another OS.

One better - I have CS3 and High Sierra (10.13).

Not really a power user, though.
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Re: P-shop hell
Posted by: Surfrider
Date: January 14, 2020 07:24PM
Help meeeeeeeee

I put the last system, before Catalina, on a external HD, couldn't get CS4 to load, kept hanging up.

So I thought I had a Time Machine backup from 4 years ago, that had to have a system that worked with CS4.
So I copied the System folder and Applications folder onto my hd in the Mini, the one that still has Catalina on it. I thought when I re-started it, it would ask me which OS to use....not sure if what I did was the move to make because, now it won't start at all. It seemed to want to start the first attempt, I held down the option and "s" keys and the window popped up asking where to get an OS...unfortunately, I jostled the power wire and cut the Mac off....I a frickin genius....I plugged it back and now I got nothing, doesn't make a sound, nothing comes up on the monitor...nada...

As you can tell, I don't know WTF to do now, any help would be appreciated. I'm a dunce about this stuff.
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Re: P-shop hell
Posted by: Sarcany
Date: January 14, 2020 08:07PM
Catalina repartitioned your drive, making one read-only system volume and one data volume. These volumes are invisibly tied together to look like one volume.

The consequence is that erasing the drive and setting up a new boot volume from scratch is really the only way to begin downgrading.

What you appear to have done was copy some unusable system files onto the Data volume. (You cant simply copy a System folder from a Time Machine backup to make a bootable system volume.)

So... You don't even have a current backup from the Catalina drive at this point?

...With a current backup, you might* boot with Shift-Option-Command-R held down to get to a special version of the Recovery vol to erase the drive and then reinstall the OS that came with your Mac. You could then copy your data-files back and reinstall your apps and upgrade back to Mojave.

(*Depends which Mac mini you have.)







Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/14/2020 08:15PM by Sarcany.
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Re: P-shop hell
Posted by: Surfrider
Date: January 15, 2020 06:59AM
I have a Time Machine backup from last Friday, if that will help me?
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Re: P-shop hell
Posted by: Sarcany
Date: January 15, 2020 07:15AM
Quote
Surfrider
I have a Time Machine backup from last Friday, if that will help me?

Is this a backup from the mini after the Catalina install?

You can't use a backup from Catalina to restore to an install of Mojave, but you have other options with it...

Let's keep this hypothetical for now. I suggest that you think about it a bit and maybe wait for other people's input before trying either of these things...

You could boot to Recovery on the mini (assuming that it's now powering up), and erase the boot drive and then restore from the Catalina Time Machine backup.

You could erase the boot drive and install an older OS either via the Shift-Option-Command-R combo or using a stand-alone installer drive, and then copy your data files via drag-drop from the Time Machine backup. You wouldn't bring back all of your apps or system-settings in this fashion, but apps that don't need installers can be drag-dropped back into the Applications folder and with some extra work you could restore bookmarks and preferences for many apps from the hidden user-Library folder.



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Re: P-shop hell
Posted by: Surfrider
Date: January 15, 2020 11:10AM
Right now I have a silent block of Apple goodness just sitting on my desk, love my Mini, sorry I wounded it!
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Re: P-shop hell
Posted by: Surfrider
Date: January 15, 2020 11:29AM
But wait, I tried the Shift-Option-Command-R , it started to make a dull beep-like noise.

Now it says it's trying to "internet recovery", it has a black screen with a small spinning globe and a progress bar moving slowly.

"Houston we have something!"

I have the box on the screen with the four choices.
1 Restore from Time Machine
2 Re-install OS
3 Get help online
4 Disk Utility/ repair/erase

I'm not going to do anything until I hear from you Forum folks....I don't want to bollox this up again.

So it was the OSX 15 that I tried, that didn't work with CS 4 Photoshop

I think one of the backups on the HD is a system folder with OSX 14 on it. I think I can run CS 4 with that but I'll await you all telling me what to do next, thanks.
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Re: P-shop hell
Posted by: Surfrider
Date: January 15, 2020 12:24PM
I do have a laptop with 10.13.6, that I can use if my Mini requires a second machine.

I like OSX 10.13.6, it works with CS4. Any way I can get this OS on my Mini?

Thanks for your collective brain power, folks!
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Re: P-shop hell
Posted by: Sarcany
Date: January 15, 2020 03:07PM
Quote
Surfrider
But wait, I tried the Shift-Option-Command-R , it started to make a dull beep-like noise.

Now it says it's trying to "internet recovery", it has a black screen with a small spinning globe and a progress bar moving slowly.

"Houston we have something!"

I have the box on the screen with the four choices.
1 Restore from Time Machine
2 Re-install OS
3 Get help online
4 Disk Utility/ repair/erase

I'm going to respond to the two last posts in two separate messages.

This one addresses the option of wiping the internal drive and installing an old operating system from scratch...

...

Holding down different keys on startup can boot to different Recovery options.

If you held down those specific keys then it should have booted to the Recovery option that installs the original version of the macOS that was on that computer, rather than the Recovery option that re-installs the latest OS.

If you're confident that your backup is complete enough -- is on a good drive and has the latest versions of any files that you need, and the contents of the boot drive are therefore not of great consequence -- then from Recovery, you can use the Disk Utility to erase the boot drive and then quit the Disk Utility to return to the options window and install a clean version of the macOS.

If you do this, all of the data from the boot drive will be destroyed: When in the Disk Utility, you may need to use the View menu to "show all devices" ... You should see that your boot drive appears to have a "Media" icon and below that should be a "container" or "volume" icon. To erase the drive properly, you need to click on the "Media" icon and then when you click the "Erase" button you should then be able to give it a Name "Macintosh HD" ... and a Format "Mac OS Extended (Journaled)" ... and a Scheme "GUID Partition Map" ... If any of this is confusing or something looks weird, stop and come back and ask here before proceeding.

...You might think that you need to use APFS as the format for a modern version of the macOS, but the installer will convert to APFS as-needed, so "Mac OS Extended (Journaled)" is appropriate.







Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/15/2020 03:07PM by Sarcany.
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Re: P-shop hell
Posted by: Sarcany
Date: January 15, 2020 03:13PM
Quote
Surfrider
I do have a laptop with 10.13.6, that I can use if my Mini requires a second machine.

I like OSX 10.13.6, it works with CS4. Any way I can get this OS on my Mini?

Okay, option #2... Clone the operating system from the laptop to the boot drive on the Mac mini...

It's possible to boot your mini into Target mode, connect it to your laptop with the right cable, erase the mini's boot drive from the laptop, and then clone the laptop's boot drive to the mini.

Again, the data on the Mac mini will be obliterated in the process.

...But before we go into the details on this, I need to know what model or year the Mac mini is, and what model your laptop is. This determines what the correct cable is to connect between the mini and the laptop.



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Re: P-shop hell
Posted by: Surfrider
Date: January 15, 2020 04:52PM
Laptop is a Macbook Pro made in mid 2012. 2.5GHz Core 5 processor.

I think the Mini is from that era too, I can't look because it won't let me!

It is a i7 quad core 2.7 GHZ I'm sure of the i7/quad core, not positive of the speed, at least 2.5 anyway.
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Re: P-shop hell
Posted by: Sarcany
Date: January 15, 2020 06:16PM
Mid-2012 at 2.5GHz... 13-inch and not Retina? Has a CD/DVD drive?

The Mac mini has a 500GB boot drive? Are you using less than 500GB on the MacBook Pro?

To reiterate: This will wipe the boot drive on the Mac mini...

...Boot the mini into Target mode by holding down the "T" key after the boot-chime.

Then connect a FireWire 800 cable between the Mac mini and the MacBook Pro.

The Mac mini's Catalina System and Data volumes may or may not appear on the Desktop on the MacBook Pro, but the drive should appear in the Disk Utility.

You would erase the drive in the same fashion as with the Recovery-mode option. Run the Disk Utility, use View > Show All Devices to show the device/media in addition to the volumes. Select the media icon rather than the volume or container icon (the top icon, likely to appear just above the APFS container) and create a Mac OS Extended (Journaled) volume named "Macintosh HD" as above.

Download Carbon Copy Cloner and if you don't have a license then just use it in trial-mode for this purpose. Select the boot drive on the MacBook Pro as the source and the newly-erased Macintosh HD volume as the Destination and click the "Clone" button.

Some time later, it will be done and you'll have a bootable version of your MacBook Pro's drive on the Mac mini. Quit CCC, eject the Mac mini and power it off. Disconnect the FireWire cable.

You may need to hold down the Option key to select the newly-created boot volume when you start up the Mac mini. Make sure to select Macintosh HD in the Startup Disk pref's of the System Preferences if you need to do so.

The Mac mini should boot normally from the cloned operating system thereafter. Some software copied from the MacBook Pro may recognize that it has been copied to a new Mac and request re-serialization, but for the most part stuff should just work.







Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/15/2020 06:19PM by Sarcany.
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Re: P-shop hell
Posted by: Surfrider
Date: January 15, 2020 07:24PM
I'll get back to you tomorrow when my brain isn't melting, I appreciate your help.
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Re: P-shop hell
Posted by: Surfrider
Date: January 16, 2020 08:11AM
The Mini has two hard drives, the second one has some recent backups on it.

Both the laptop and the Mini have Ethernet ports and I have an Ethernet cable.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/16/2020 10:59AM by Surfrider.
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Re: P-shop hell
Posted by: Sarcany
Date: January 16, 2020 11:49AM
Quote
Surfrider
Both the laptop and the Mini have Ethernet ports and I have an Ethernet cable.

That doesn't help when you want to clone. You need a FireWire 800 cable if you're going to use Target Mode to clone from the laptop's boot drive.

Another option might be to clone from the laptop to a spare external hard drive, then boot the Mac mini from the spare hard drive. The next steps to clone from the external hard drive would basically be the same as with Target Mode, but you wouldn't need the FireWire cable.


Quote
Surfrider
The Mini has two hard drives, the second one has some recent backups on it.

You should see both drives show up in the Disk Utility if you opt to connect via Target Mode or boot to an external drive. Just be careful which drive you opt to erase and install the new OS onto.







Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/16/2020 11:50AM by Sarcany.
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Re: P-shop hell
Posted by: Surfrider
Date: January 16, 2020 12:02PM
What/How can I clone from the laptop to the external HD?

I have the HD, just don't know how to clone the Macbook Pro
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Re: P-shop hell
Posted by: Sarcany
Date: January 16, 2020 12:15PM
Quote
Surfrider
What/How can I clone from the laptop to the external HD?

In brief...

Connect the external drive to the laptop.

Erase the external drive as MacOS Extended (Journaled) and GUID in the Disk Utility. (Make sure to select the upper icon for the external drive in the left panel of the Disk Utility window before clicking the "Erase" button. If you don't see both a Media and Volume icon for the drive then select "Show All Devices" from the View menu in the Disk Utility.)

Install Carbon Copy Cloner on the laptop, select the laptop drive as the Source and the external drive as the Destination. Clone.



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Re: P-shop hell
Posted by: Surfrider
Date: January 17, 2020 10:18AM
I'll start this when I get home from work tonight, I can only pray I don't bollox things up again!
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Re: P-shop hell
Posted by: Surfrider
Date: January 18, 2020 11:18AM
I got it cloned on a portable HD

What's my next move?
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Re: P-shop hell
Posted by: Surfrider
Date: January 18, 2020 11:20AM
I cloned the laptop on a portable HD.

What's my next step?

Thanks.
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Re: P-shop hell
Posted by: Sarcany
Date: January 18, 2020 03:07PM
Quote
Surfrider
I cloned the laptop on a portable HD.

What's my next step?

Thanks.

Boot the mini from the external HD.

Erase the Mini's boot drive while booted from the external HD. (Note that from the Catalina install there will be "System" and "Data" APFS volumes and neither one is the one that you need to select to erase the drive. You need to select the "Media" icon just above those volumes in the Disk Utility and use the View > Show All Devices option if you don't see it.)

Use Carbon Copy Cloner to clone from the external HD to the Mac mini's boot drive.



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Re: P-shop hell
Posted by: Surfrider
Date: January 18, 2020 05:27PM
Well its working but it merged the hard drive I didn't mind losing with the one I needed.

When I go to the system profiler, it looks like there are two hard drives, one a Crucial with 500 GB

the other, a WDC (Western Digital) with 1TB

I want to access the WD drive but can't figure out how, it's the second internal drive and for some reason, there is no icon or anything?

I'm stuck, and if thisw did what I think it did....I'm sunk.
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Re: P-shop hell
Posted by: Sarcany
Date: January 18, 2020 08:57PM
If you only erased the Crucial (clicked to select it as the "Media" before you clicked the Erase button) then the second drive should still be present and unaffected.

The only way that erasing the Crucial drive could have messed with the 1TB WD is if you made a "Fusion drive" at some point to combine both drives into one drive-group that's treated by the Disk Utility as a single device. And your description has not included that. It's not something that most people do, so it didn't occur to me to ask.

Does "Fusion" ring a bell? You'd have had to have jumped through some hoops to combine the 500GB Crucial with the 1TB hard drive to make a Fusion drive.

How big is your boot volume now? Is it greater than 500GB? If it's 1.5TB then you've got a Fusion drive. And yeah, that'd be bad in this situation.

Did your Time Machine backup from Friday include both volumes/drives, the boot and "Desktop" volumes? Or just the Catalina boot volume??

...Another reason why a hard drive might not mount is that it's dying. Run SMART Utility and see if the Western Digital drive passes a SMART check.
[www.volitans-software.com]







Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/18/2020 09:10PM by Sarcany.
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Re: P-shop hell
Posted by: Surfrider
Date: January 19, 2020 01:23PM
I don't remember choosing "Fusion" but that's what the 1.5 TB (the size of the two hard drives added together) drive is listed as when I look at Disc Utility.

Would it be worth going to someplace that retrieves info from "erased" drives, or has the "Fusion" deal totally made them non-restorable?
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Re: P-shop hell
Posted by: Sarcany
Date: January 19, 2020 01:49PM
Cr@p!

I'm so sorry.

You said that you had a Time Machine backup from Friday. That didn't include the Desktop HD data?

...Its usually very expensive to use a place like Drive Savers, but you might as well call and see what they say:
[drivesaversdatarecovery.com]



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Re: P-shop hell
Posted by: Surfrider
Date: January 19, 2020 02:45PM
I had a backup from the previous Friday on the 1TB "second" drive in the mini....

I chose the wrong path on this at every junction.

I thank you for your time and advice. I appreciate the help.
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Re: P-shop hell
Posted by: Sarcany
Date: January 19, 2020 02:58PM
You said that you had a Time Machine backup and I assumed that you meant that you had it on one of those spare external drives...

Somehow, you ended up with not just a Fusion drive, but you partitioned it into two volumes and backed it up... to itself.

Did you have any other backups at all?



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Re: P-shop hell
Posted by: Surfrider
Date: January 19, 2020 04:24PM
Only backups I have now are several years old....I need a "command-Z" key on my life...undo undo undo....
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Re: P-shop hell
Posted by: Sarcany
Date: January 19, 2020 04:32PM
Moving forward, you need to put a real backup in place.

The main rule for backups is to eliminate single-points-of-failure. You need to add redundancy to protect against data loss.

For example, if all of your important data was stored on a single internal hard drive (or a Fusion drive), that would represent a single point of failure because one hard drive dying will also destroy your data.

But the Mac, itself, also represents a single point of failure because if the power supply dies then your data is basically inaccessible then as well.

Adding a 2TB external 2.5-inch backup drive for either Time Machine or a Carbon Copy Cloner bootable backup provides redundancy against the loss of the drive or the Mac.

But hard drives aren't wholly reliable. So, a good backup scheme includes some redundancy against the death of the backup drive. You can do this by putting a second 2TB backup drive in place. If you set up the first backup drive as a Time Machine backup then set up the second one as a nightly clone. The two backup schemes are complimentary, with Time Machine providing (roughly) hourly incremental backups and the ability to restore using the Migration Assistant, and the clone providing a way to roll over to a bootable working OS immediately when you discover any issue with your boot drive.

Two redundant backup drives will provide a pretty good backup scheme, but it doesn't take care of another point of failure: Your home. Add a cloud backup from a company like Backblaze or Crashplan and you're protected against natural disasters taking out your home.

This is the paradigm that many sysadmins strive for and will recommend: Three tiers of backup. Two local and one offsite/cloud.



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