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Today's Red Slippers/TOTO dilemma....
Posted by: Buzz
Date: January 13, 2020 06:20PM
1.6 gpf Toto toilet keeps running, and running, and running....
Handyman put FluidMaster guts in it awhile back, but I'm pretty sure that's NOT the entire problem. Thought it was gonna be the flapper, so ordered a Toto flapper from AMZ w/o looking closely enough. Wrong size, so didn't open. Had help to turn water off from wall. Emptied tank. Removed old flapper and cleaned off lotsa gunk. Cleaned gunk off of valve hole. Put flapper back, but flapper had been too taught previously, and chain was connected to wrong hole in flush arm, so flapper was slightly distressed.

Got everything back together, but Toto still running, but not as badly as before. Go back in earlier today, and get water shut off again, and flush tank. This time, paying closer attention, w/ the water supply valve cranked all the way off, the toilet is still running.

So, I'm thinking the 50 year old valve on the wall has gotta be the culprit, y/n?
Not sure about the intake valve on the FluidMaster innards; it could be bad, too, y/n?
But how are we gonna be able to find out for sure until the 50 y.o. wall valve is replaced and the water can be stopped, y/n?

The city has a free toilet replacement program for leaky toilets, but I'm pretty sure that doesn't include replacing 1969's wall shutoff valve, and I'm pretty sure the replacement crapper is of lesser quality than the Toto that's in there now.
Whatcha think?
Thanks.
==

Edit = Emphasis Added



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/13/2020 07:53PM by Buzz.
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Re: Today's Red Slippers/TOTO dilemma....
Posted by: Ombligo
Date: January 13, 2020 06:56PM
The wall valve would have nothing to do with it. Those valves are always on otherwise your tank would not fill when flushed.

the issue has to be either water leaking pass the flapper or the intake valve running and water going into the overflow. That would be easy to see, just watch the water and if it goes down the overflow tube then that is the issue. In which case you need to replace the Fluidmaster.

Since you got the leak to slow by cleaning the flapper, my money is on it. I would replace it first, then the Flush Valve (though it may be cheaper to just buy both parts together).

But I really think it is just the flapper.



“No persons are more frequently wrong, than those who will not admit they are wrong.”
-- François de La Rochefoucauld



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/13/2020 06:58PM by Ombligo.
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Re: Today's Red Slippers/TOTO dilemma....
Posted by: davester
Date: January 13, 2020 07:10PM
What Ombligo said!



"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." (1987) -- Carl Sagan
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Re: Today's Red Slippers/TOTO dilemma....
Posted by: Sarcany
Date: January 13, 2020 07:49PM
...So, you haven't replaced the flapper yet??

Replace the flapper and then come back and ask again if you still have problems.

...

For any running toilet, odds are that it's the flapper or the seal/seat below the flapper, both of which can be replaced very cheaply and easily using a kit from the local hardware store. Somewhere around $7-$10 bucks.



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Re: Today's Red Slippers/TOTO dilemma....
Posted by: NewtonMP2100
Date: January 13, 2020 08:04PM




_____________________________________

I reject your reality and substitute my own!
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Re: Today's Red Slippers/TOTO dilemma....
Posted by: Buzz
Date: January 13, 2020 08:06PM
Thanks, but I guess I may not have been clear....

The Water is Still Flowing When the Valve on the Wall is Cranked Shut, and There Should NOT Be Any Water Flowing to the Toto.
(also added emphasis in original post)

It also seems to keep flowing when I lift the fill valve's float thingy, but my hands/arms aren't very steady, so that may, or may not be a factor when the wall valve isn't seating properly.

Next Q? I seem to remember in days of yore, that closing and opening the wall valve several times, may knock the crud off of its innards, eventually causing it to seat better, to even eventually seating properly. OTOH, I seem to recall anecdotal evidence that doing so on such an old valve may cause it to spring a leak.... Hence, I ain't gonna try it, (a) because I can't do it myself, and (b) even if I had help to do it, there damn well better be a real plumber on the premises should that latter leak thing happen. Please discuss.
Thanks.
==
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Re: Today's Red Slippers/TOTO dilemma....
Posted by: mattkime
Date: January 13, 2020 08:30PM
I'd go upstream of the water supply up to and including turning off water for the house. It would be a good sanity check but probably not worth doing if you're not willing to replace the valve.

Um, did you put some muscle into turning the valve? both ways? I wouldn't worry about it leaking.

Honestly its hard to tell if its user error or actually broken. There are nicer quarter turn valves - they provide a bit more certainty in regards to 'off' and 'on'

Just did this stuff at my own place - I'd show you how over a beer if you were nearby.



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Re: Today's Red Slippers/TOTO dilemma....
Posted by: GGD
Date: January 13, 2020 08:48PM
Could you be more precise on what "water is still flowing" means. Is water still flowing INTO the toilet tank, or OUT OF the toilet tank?

When you have the wall valve shut off does the water level in the tank increase?

If the water you hear flowing is OUT OF the tank, then it's the flapper like everyone has been telling you.
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Re: Today's Red Slippers/TOTO dilemma....
Posted by: Buzz
Date: January 13, 2020 08:57PM
Um, did you put some muscle into turning the valve? both ways? I wouldn't worry about it leaking.

Four people have tried thus far; none have succeeded. It's one of them ol' fashioned screw valves.... gotta turn it like 15 or 20 full turns; none of that newfangled quarter turn stuff. When I mentioned "anecdotal evidence" before, that was my code for having blown a similar valve under the sink next door in a unit built at the same time. Now, this one is that much older, I'm that much older and in worse shape, and the thought of blowing another valve scares the crap outa me, and it would sure be nice to have a working Toto if that were to happen.

My niece was nearby, somewhere in Madison, anyway, for a few years after college thru about 2010. Makes the beers kinda tough now, but maybe a virtual beer over FaceTime would work.
smileys with beer

==
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Re: Today's Red Slippers/TOTO dilemma....
Posted by: Ombligo
Date: January 13, 2020 09:15PM
Even if the wall valve won't close, that won't cause the toilet to run. The leaking valve is a whole different issue. The first thing is to get the toilet to stop leaking - as I said earlier, that is most likely the flapper. After you have that issue resolved, then tackle the valve issue (unless you need to replace the fluidmaster, then it would make sense to fix the valve first).

The valve will require turning the water off upstream. Removing the old valve and attaching a new one (go with a quarter turn one). Since it is an old pipe, that will likely mean sweating the old valve off and the new valve on. Depending on your skillset, that could mean a plumber (or at least a friend with the needed skills)



“No persons are more frequently wrong, than those who will not admit they are wrong.”
-- François de La Rochefoucauld
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Re: Today's Red Slippers/TOTO dilemma....
Posted by: Buzz
Date: January 13, 2020 10:13PM
I'm down w/ the flapper..., it's gotta be replaced. Definitely somebody other than me has gotta tackle the 50 y.o. wall valve, and a quarter turn replacement is a no-brainer there. Jury is still out on the FluidMaster intake valve; but that gets easier to troubleshoot after the wall valve actually works. When Baby Buzz and I collaborated on building an air canon, many years ago, we used a quarter turn valve as the trigger on the all manual/mechanical fun gun. Bicycle pump and the quarter turn trigger valve launched 1.625" superballs well over 300 feet... probably coulda gone for more distance, but didn't wanna chance the plastic air reservoir becoming shrapnel. Big fan of the quarter turn valve here.
==
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Re: Today's Red Slippers/TOTO dilemma....
Posted by: mattkime
Date: January 13, 2020 10:58PM
IMO it sounds like you have the wrong parts or they're installed incorrectly. That little gizmo just isn't that complicated. I'd look for a toto part number inside the tank and see if thats the clue you need.

As for the valve, I'd be entertained if you uploaded a pic. From the side to see how it meets the wall pipe.



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Re: Today's Red Slippers/TOTO dilemma....
Posted by: Ombligo
Date: January 13, 2020 10:59PM
Not an elegant solution on the valve, but an economical alternative - leave the old valve in place and wide open, then put a quarter-turn valve on the line between the old valve and the tank. It gives you the quick off without the cost of a plumber (and possibly drywall/plasterwork). The new valve will be hidden by the tank, so it won't look super clunky.

Just an idea.



“No persons are more frequently wrong, than those who will not admit they are wrong.”
-- François de La Rochefoucauld
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Re: Today's Red Slippers/TOTO dilemma....
Posted by: Buzz
Date: January 14, 2020 11:36AM
As for the valve, I'd be entertained if you uploaded a pic. From the side to see how it meets the wall pipe.

I sliced my finger last evening trying to cut a baguette, but will try to have someone take a side view sometime today. As to the innards, the OEM parts were replaced w/ FluidMaster awhile back, and the offending flapper is a Korky. I have a new FluidMaster 502 waiting to install.



leave the old valve in place and wide open, then put a quarter-turn valve on the line between the old valve and the tank.

Mikey likes it. I'm gonna pass that along to the powers that be, but several years ago in our other bathroom, the plumber dood from the big time local plumbing company, cross-threaded the supply line fitting on the bottom of the (then crappy old city replacement) toilet, and when it blew, it flooded our unit, and the one below us. Been especially leery of all stuff wall valve related ever since. I replaced that toilet about four years ago with a right height, elongated America Standard that has not had any problems. It's just the Toto that's been acting up.
==

Edit = added photo of old wall valve



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/14/2020 02:38PM by Buzz.
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Re: Today's Red Slippers/TOTO dilemma....
Posted by: Ombligo
Date: January 14, 2020 03:46PM
Since the old valve is threaded on, it should be an easy swap. However, don't just grab and twist with all your might using a wrench to remove the old, the last thing you want to do is snap the old pipe or remove it from a fitting inside the wall.

first, put a crescent wrench on the valve and gently twist to see if it will come loose. If not, put a pipe wrench on the pipe to hold it from twisting and try again. Still no luck? apply some heat from a torch to melt the built-up paint and expand the metal - try again. If the paint is gone and still no luck, apply some penetrating oil, let it set a day (adding a few drops every 4-6 hours) and try again. If that doesn't work then go back to the original idea of a new valve in between the old one and the tank (or call a plumber).

When you get it off, clean the threads completely with some steel wool or a wire brush. Wrap it with Teflon tape or pipe dope, put the new valve on but don't overtighten. turn it off and turn the water on to check for leaks. Then add the connection to the tank and check for leaks again.



“No persons are more frequently wrong, than those who will not admit they are wrong.”
-- François de La Rochefoucauld
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Re: Today's Red Slippers/TOTO dilemma....
Posted by: NewtonMP2100
Date: January 14, 2020 03:54PM
......I bless the rains down in Africa.........



_____________________________________

I reject your reality and substitute my own!
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Re: Today's Red Slippers/TOTO dilemma....
Posted by: mattkime
Date: January 14, 2020 04:01PM
Quote
Ombligo
first, put a crescent wrench on the valve and gently twist to see if it will come loose. If not, put a pipe wrench on the pipe to hold it from twisting and try again. Still no luck? apply some heat from a torch to melt the built-up paint and expand the metal - try again. If the paint is gone and still no luck, apply some penetrating oil, let it set a day (adding a few drops every 4-6 hours) and try again. If that doesn't work then go back to the original idea of a new valve in between the old one and the tank (or call a plumber).

When you get it off, clean the threads completely with some steel wool or a wire brush. Wrap it with Teflon tape or pipe dope, put the new valve on but don't overtighten. turn it off and turn the water on to check for leaks. Then add the connection to the tank and check for leaks again.

Did exactly this recently. once heat was applied everything went very smoothly. It was almost confusing.
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Re: Today's Red Slippers/TOTO dilemma....
Posted by: Cary
Date: January 14, 2020 05:18PM
Quote
Ombligo
Since the old valve is threaded on, it should be an easy swap. However, don't just grab and twist with all your might using a wrench to remove the old, the last thing you want to do is snap the old pipe or remove it from a fitting inside the wall.

first, put a crescent wrench on the valve and gently twist to see if it will come loose. If not, put a pipe wrench on the pipe to hold it from twisting and try again. Still no luck? apply some heat from a torch to melt the built-up paint and expand the metal - try again. If the paint is gone and still no luck, apply some penetrating oil, let it set a day (adding a few drops every 4-6 hours) and try again. If that doesn't work then go back to the original idea of a new valve in between the old one and the tank (or call a plumber).

When you get it off, clean the threads completely with some steel wool or a wire brush. Wrap it with Teflon tape or pipe dope, put the new valve on but don't overtighten. turn it off and turn the water on to check for leaks. Then add the connection to the tank and check for leaks again.

I agree with all of this, except: You must use a pipe wrench or channellock slip-joint pliers to hold the pipe nipple coming out of the wall in place while you turn the valve off the pipe nipple.
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Re: Today's Red Slippers/TOTO dilemma....
Posted by: Ombligo
Date: January 14, 2020 05:19PM
Quote
Cary
Quote
Ombligo
...put a crescent wrench on the valve and gently twist to see if it will come loose. If not, put a pipe wrench on the pipe to hold it from twisting and try again.

I agree with all of this, except: You must use a pipe wrench or channellock slip-joint pliers to hold the pipe nipple coming out of the wall in place while you turn the valve off the pipe nipple.

That is what I meant



“No persons are more frequently wrong, than those who will not admit they are wrong.”
-- François de La Rochefoucauld
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Re: Today's Red Slippers/TOTO dilemma....
Posted by: NewtonMP2100
Date: January 14, 2020 05:30PM
.....nip.....slip....???



_____________________________________

I reject your reality and substitute my own!
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Re: Today's Red Slippers/TOTO dilemma....
Posted by: Buzz
Date: January 14, 2020 05:50PM
Thanks for the homework! Sounds extremely promising.

.....nip.....slip....???

J-Lo?....Hello?....Hello, J-Lo, dat you peeking out???
==
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