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HD recovery dilemna, can't even connect the &%^# thing!
Posted by: reezekeys
Date: December 13, 2005 08:24AM
I posted on the, er, "other" forum about my problems with a FW PC card for my TiBook 500 (10.3.9) causing havoc with two of my external FW hard drives. I wound up with KPs after connecting them. When I rebooted, I was able to partially recover one of the drives--it had 5 partitions, three of them showed up, and Disk Utility repaired a fourth. The fifth partition is visible in a program called Data Rescue X--I see all the data, so I'll probably pay up and get the full working version.

The other drive, a 250GB Hitachi, had three partitions. Hooking this drive up causes an almost-immediate KP no matter what I've tried: different case, different computer, USB instead of FW (one of my cases has dual ports). I am pretty sure the data is still on there--there's no death click or abnormal noise (AAMOF I hear the normal seeking noises when the drive is turned on; 4 seconds later--KP).

My next thought was to remove the drive from the external case and connect it directly to an internal IDE bus on a desktop Mac. If the computer will just continue to run, maybe I can get a repair utility to see the drive! The problem is that my desktop Mac can't do this, it's an old 9500. It has an IDE PCI card (Sonnet) but I'm 99% sure it's ATA-5 and won't see over 128GB.

A good friend of mine has a dual 1.25Mhz G4. He would let me use his Mac to try this. I am just a bit nervous that this might cause a problem--a fried motherboard being the worst-case scenario. What would you do? The data is not worth a typical drive-recovery company's fee ($500+) but it would sure be nice to get back.
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Re: HD recovery dilemna, can't even connect the &%^# thing!
Posted by: Jimmypoo
Date: December 13, 2005 08:38AM
Boot into 9.

I had a partition that was gone for a MONTH.

YEsterday I booted into 9 for the first time in a while for a different reason, and there was my stuff.

I tried to restart via that partition, but it wouldn't work. So I restarted back into X, and the partition showed!

I opened Disk Utility, but when it did some stuff, it unmounted it and it was gone again.

I went back into 9, and there it was. So I took the data off it and then cloned a pristine 10.3.9 onto the entire drive (I cleaned the other partition too) and was done with it.

The point here being, you might not be able to rescue the partition itself, but you may have good luck in getting your data. It took about an hour to get 2.5GB of crap off. What was interesting was that the two programs that were open and crashed (and I did a hard restart----which caused the partition to vanish) were the two programs it hung up on while copying.

I'm talking text files that would take 10 minutes to copy. The app itself that took 30 minutes.

I've trashed them since, but that was worthy to note that Acrobat 6 Pro and Word, which were open when it locked, were the files that were so severely corrupt.

Oh - and my user folder was COMPLETELY gone.

I had already tried DW3 and TechTool 4.01. It said there was simply no directory there to fix.

Interesting how it came back into view after a 9 boot.



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Re: HD recovery dilemna, can't even connect the &%^# thing!
Posted by: reezekeys
Date: December 13, 2005 08:44AM
>> Boot into 9.

>>I had a partition that was gone for a MONTH.

>>YEsterday I booted into 9 for the first time in a while for a different reason, and there was my stuff.

I assume you're referring to the drive that 4 out of 5 partitions are showing up. I did boot into 9 and what happens is I get an alert saying the disk cannot be read and do I want to initialize it.

However, I don't remember trying to hook up the other drive while in 9. I'll give that a shot, thanks!
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Re: HD recovery dilemna, can't even connect the &%^# thing!
Posted by: Jimmypoo
Date: December 13, 2005 09:20AM
I've only had a few kernel panics that went blue. I usually just get the multi-language "restart" freeze or the machine just literally freezes, like in pre-X systems.

I was talking about your partition.

I've never tried the drive move... since my extras are on an ATA card, so that makes things a different animal altogether.
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Re: HD recovery dilemna, can't even connect the &%^# thing!
Posted by: reezekeys
Date: December 13, 2005 09:21AM
Jimmypoo, your suggestion helped a lot! 2 out of the three partitions showed up in OS9 (I got the "unreadable/would you like to initialize" alert on the third)! The one that didn't is a clone of the X partition of my Ti's internal drive. I ran "Drive First Aid" (the only OS9 disk repair utility I have). It found errors on the two partitions. It was able to repair the errors on one of them. The other one looks OK though (superficially; no scrambled file names, missing files, etc.).

I had high hopes that were dashed when I rebooted back into X. The drive still gives me a KP when I try to mount it.

I think what I'll do now is reboot into 9, and answer "yes" to the "initialize" alert for that third partition. There's nothing on there that's not on my internal.
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Re: HD recovery dilemna, can't even connect the &%^# thing!
Posted by: reezekeys
Date: December 13, 2005 09:22AM
>> I've only had a few kernel panics that went blue. I usually just get the multi-language "restart" freeze

That's what I get, I thought that was the "new look" of a KP (starting with Panther).
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Re: HD recovery dilemna, can't even connect the &%^# thing!
Posted by: Jimmypoo
Date: December 13, 2005 10:02AM
DON'T DO IT!

I've never seen OS 9 initialize partitions!

If you initialize, it will either wipe the drive or tell you it will create NEW partitions out of the drive (and still wipe the entire drive).

10.2+ is sensitive to partitions.
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Re: HD recovery dilemna, can't even connect the &%^# thing!
Posted by: MacMagus
Date: December 13, 2005 10:19AM
> I've never seen OS 9 initialize partitions!

'Ever tried "Erase" under the Special menu?



=======================================================

"This is what Super Adventure Club ACTUALLY BELIEVES"
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Re: HD recovery dilemna, can't even connect the &%^# thing!
Posted by: reezekeys
Date: December 13, 2005 10:21AM
>>DON'T DO IT!

I haven't done it yet, thanks for the warning!

I think I have an old Norton Utilities around somewhere, maybe I should try that. Pretty sure that Disk Warrior is NG since it rebuilds directories and needs to see a valid partition map. Maybe TTP?
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Re: HD recovery dilemna, can't even connect the &%^# thing!
Posted by: Jimmypoo
Date: December 13, 2005 12:25PM
No, actually. Not since floppies went away.

But MM - that isn't what he was talking about using - hence the warning.

I'll accept being corrected or enlighted/re-enlightened vs. watching a disaster happen anytime - so by all means, chime in.

So - now that you mention it, I suppose that IS the way to go
if you are doing it from 9.

R - TTP has the right stuff to do it. If the directory is gone, you'll get the same answer as DW, but I don't think that will stop you from erasing it.

MINE - it would not, because it could neither completely dismount it nor remount it - so it gave me an error. That's why I did everything in OS 9.2.2.
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Re: HD recovery dilemna, can't even connect the &%^# thing!
Posted by: MacMagus
Date: December 13, 2005 01:02PM
> But MM - that isn't what he was talking about using - hence
> the warning.

You're absolutely right.
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Re: HD recovery dilemna, can't even connect the &%^# thing!
Posted by: reezekeys
Date: December 13, 2005 01:18PM
Well, I found an old TT Pro v3 that runs in 9. Started it up & let it do its thing in the "Volume Recover" pane. The result is that one of the two partitions that I had resurrected with Disk First Aid went bye-bye again. After trying a few things I got disgusted, rebooted (in 9), and when I saw the "unreadable/would you like to initialize" alert for the hosed volumes, I answered YES. Jimmypoo, this DOES erase individual partitions, not the whole disk as you warned about.

Now I rebooted in X, and was able to mount the drive! So I'm back in business, except that the only way I have of communicating with this drive (and my other FW devices) is through the Iogear PC FW card I just bought, which I'm pretty sure CAUSED all this in the first place!
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Re: HD recovery dilemna, can't even connect the &%^# thing!
Posted by: MacMagus
Date: December 13, 2005 01:53PM
I take it back, Jimmypoo. You were wrong.

smiling smiley

reezekeys, Jimmypoo was talking about using the Apple Drive Setup utility under OS 9 and he assumed that was what you were talking about as well. If you use the Drive Setup utility, it will erase and re-partition the whole drive.

If you erase a disk from the Finder, that's initializing just the volume.

...and I doubt that it was the PC card that hosed your drive. I'd be more concerned about having a bad bridge in one or more of your FireWire drive cases.

I hope that you don't chain those drives.
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Re: HD recovery dilemna, can't even connect the &%^# thing!
Posted by: reezekeys
Date: December 13, 2005 03:37PM
MM,

Drive Setup Utility showed the drive but it was "unsupported." It wouldn't let me do anything with it.

As far as whether the PC card is to blame: I've been troubleshooting this for two days. I tried the drive in two different cases with the same results. And I couldn't finish a burn using my FW DVD burner & Toast; it hung in the middle of the process. And my othere drive went south too (as I said in my first post). In short, it would be one hell of a coincidence that ALL my FW devices would suddenly act up within minutes of starting to use them with this FW PC card.
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Re: HD recovery dilemna, can't even connect the &%^# thing!
Posted by: MacMagus
Date: December 13, 2005 03:58PM
> In short, it would be one hell of a coincidence that ALL my
> FW devices would suddenly act up within minutes of starting
> to use them with this FW PC card.

My concern is that one of the bridges in one of your drive cases flaked out first, then took out your original FireWire port. If you have a flakey bridge, it may be responsible for damaging the PC card and the bridges in the other cases.

I wouldn't trust ANY of those drive cases right now.
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Re: HD recovery dilemna, can't even connect the &%^# thing!
Posted by: reezekeys
Date: December 13, 2005 04:38PM
MM, I just saw your PM now.

You have a point about a bad bridge but things look stable now. I found an old 40GB drive, put it in an older OX911 case, initialized it and am backing up my user folder to it without incident--so my minimum backup needs are satisfied for now. The other drives are also mounting & transferring files OK (to the partitions that I just created or still exist, that is!).

I'm going to proceed slowly and do some more testing (a CD/DVD burn, playing movies off an external, etc.). If all goes well, I'll do a new clone of my internal X boot partition and see how that goes. One major drag: before ANY of this happened, while the drives were all good, I tried to boot off my clone partition; didn't work--it looks like the driver for the PC card loads after the system starts. I would LOVE to be wrong about this. It's certainly not mentioned anywhere that I saw while I was researching FW PC cards. If my internal drive goes, the only option I'll have is to boot off a CD.
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Re: HD recovery dilemna, can't even connect the &%^# thing!
Posted by: ka jowct
Date: December 13, 2005 06:41PM
This is off the original topic, but why do you need 5 partitions? Or even 3?
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Re: HD recovery dilemna, can't even connect the &%^# thing!
Posted by: reezekeys
Date: December 13, 2005 08:25PM
>>This is off the original topic, but why do you need 5 partitions? Or even 3?

To be honest, I forgot why I divided my older drive into five partitions! It does seem a bit extreme, I'll admit. I'm glad I did, though--I could have lost a lot more data than I did if I had only one or two partitions.

My newer Hitachi is a 250GB, divided into three partitions. I was going to use it for audio recording (what I do for a living). By having a small first partition, you gain performance (faster rotational speed plus a smaller area for the head to move around). A second, large partition was for moving my newly recorded audio projects to (to make room on the first), and the third was to hold a clone of my boot drive in case of an emergency.
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Re: HD recovery dilemna, can't even connect the &%^# thing!
Posted by: MacMagus
Date: December 13, 2005 11:19PM
> By having a small first partition, you gain performance

You shouldn't see any performance gain that way.

The theory is that one *might* see a slight increase in speed for files written to an OUTER partition, but the FIRST partition may be at the inside or outside of the disk, depending on the utility used to partition the disk.

Other factors come to play whether writing to the inside or outside -- they're both at one end of the seek so speeds average out about the same.

The partition that would see the best *average* speed increase would be a MIDDLE partition because *on average* it would have the shortest seek times. Even so, you might not see a measurable difference in a modern, fast drive until you also played with the block sizes, and it's a pretty extreme case where you'd need that tiny performance gain for audio work.

Recording 24 tracks (48 KHz/24-bit) is not a problem with a 5400 rpm FW drive. Working with 40-70 tracks is pretty typical on a 7200 rpm FW drive. (This assumes that you only have ONE device connected via FW at one time.)

That's probably as much or more than your old laptop can handle.

You shouldn't have any operational need to partition a single FW drive for audio work.
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Re: HD recovery dilemna, can't even connect the &%^# thing!
Posted by: reezekeys
Date: December 14, 2005 08:29AM
>>The theory is that one *might* see a slight increase in speed for files written to an OUTER partition, but the FIRST partition may be at the inside or outside of the disk, depending on the utility used to partition the disk.<<

I did assume that the first partition was always the outer partition. I wonder how to find out for sure?

>>Other factors come to play whether writing to the inside or outside -- they're both at one end of the seek so speeds average out about the same. <<

Not to argue with ya (since I probably know less than lots of people about this stuff!), but: if you're recording 10 stereo tracks, you have 20 files open, being written to simultaneously. The head is going to be moving around a lot, going from file to file. Your statement makes sense to me if the head RETURNS to a "home position" in-between seeks to different files. If the head moves directly from file to file, and you are in a smaller partition spinning faster, I can't see how you wouldn't gain performance. If you have one large partition, some of the files being written to might be on the outside of the platter, some on the inside--wouldn't the head have to travel a lot more in this case?

Anyway it's a moot point for me. The only audio interfaces I've used with my TiBook have been USB--an emagic 26 and the Digi MBox. Both are stereo-inputs only. And, I have NEVER been able to use an external FW drive (I'm talking about my onboard FW when it was working). It chokes trying to record a single stereo track! What I think is happening is that my lame 500Mhz G4 can't give me enough juice to move the audio through the USB port AND send it out to the FW drive. That's why I replaced my Ti's internal drive with a Toshiba 7200rpm model. Another factor: I've read that the 1st-gen TiBooks don't give you the full FW bandwidth.
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