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Re: Kobe Bryant
Posted by: pRICE cUBE
Date: January 26, 2020 08:47PM
Quote
Carnos Jax
Some aviation back channel chatter is starting to paint a picture that this could be a case of controlled flight into terrain (CFIT). Looks like the cloud base (ceiling) dropped and the helicopter flew into a mountain. This is a very common cause of aviation accidents, difficult to be too hard on the pilot, as they're impossible to eliminate altogether. Great strides have been made to reduce their frequency. But they're bound to occur every now and then. RIP Mamba and friends.



I have covered aviation accidents of this nature. It can happen to experienced pilots is my understanding. I even covered a plane crash where an experienced pilot reported possibly being inverted (upside-down) before the fatal crash. The crash of the plane flying from Brazil to France a few years ago was a case of sensor malfunction and stall as the pilots tried to pull up but actually pointed up so high that the plane lost lift. Strange things happen to human perception once you lose your visual references.



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Re: Kobe Bryant
Posted by: NewtonMP2100
Date: January 26, 2020 08:51PM
.....same for JFK, Jr.......I believe......



_____________________________________

I reject your reality and substitute my own!
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Re: Kobe Bryant
Posted by: $tevie
Date: January 26, 2020 08:51PM
Kobe Bryant being killed is a shock and a tragedy, but I'm just sickened about his daughter. 13 years old and her whole life ahead of her. The photos of the two of them at games together are so sweet and now so sad.



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Re: Kobe Bryant
Posted by: DP
Date: January 26, 2020 09:19PM
Quote
Bo
Quote
3d
Quote
DP
A true gentleman of the sports world. Never got into trouble, never shot his mouth off, etc. Sad to see this happen.

Uhhhh.... not sure many would agree with the above statement. But he was one of the best on the court.

Absolutely tragic news and a great loss do no doubt! That said, as 3D indicated, he certainly did get into trouble and that is a part of his story that cannot be overlooked.

So I should've qualified the statement as in: he wasn't, comparatively speaking, getting in trouble, as a lot of professional athletes do or have done, with drugs or other stupid things, nor did he beat up his fiancé in an elevator (Ray Rice), or run a dog fighting racket (Michael Vick), or murder a friend (Aaron Hernandez).

So, comparatively speaking...





Disclaimer: This post is checked for correct spelling, punctuation, and grammar. Any attempts at humor are solely the responsibility of the author and bear no claim that any and all readers will approve or appreciate said attempt at humor.
My name is DP, and I approve this message.
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Re: Kobe Bryant
Posted by: 3d
Date: January 26, 2020 09:55PM
Quote
pRICE cUBE
Quote
Carnos Jax
Some aviation back channel chatter is starting to paint a picture that this could be a case of controlled flight into terrain (CFIT). Looks like the cloud base (ceiling) dropped and the helicopter flew into a mountain. This is a very common cause of aviation accidents, difficult to be too hard on the pilot, as they're impossible to eliminate altogether. Great strides have been made to reduce their frequency. But they're bound to occur every now and then. RIP Mamba and friends.



I have covered aviation accidents of this nature. It can happen to experienced pilots is my understanding. I even covered a plane crash where an experienced pilot reported possibly being inverted (upside-down) before the fatal crash. The crash of the plane flying from Brazil to France a few years ago was a case of sensor malfunction and stall as the pilots tried to pull up but actually pointed up so high that the plane lost lift. Strange things happen to human perception once you lose your visual references.

A helicopter crashed into a freakin NYC skyscraper six months ago, five blocks from my office in midtown. Heavy fog. It was a veteran pilot with years of experience flying in the NYC area.
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Re: Kobe Bryant
Posted by: pRICE cUBE
Date: January 26, 2020 09:57PM
Quote
Carnos Jax
Some aviation back channel chatter is starting to paint a picture that this could be a case of controlled flight into terrain (CFIT). Looks like the cloud base (ceiling) dropped and the helicopter flew into a mountain. This is a very common cause of aviation accidents, difficult to be too hard on the pilot, as they're impossible to eliminate altogether. Great strides have been made to reduce their frequency. But they're bound to occur every now and then. RIP Mamba and friends.



TMZ reports the fog contributed to the pilots actions.
[www.tmz.com]

4:30 PM PT -- L.A. weather was extremely foggy Sunday morning, and law enforcement sources tell us even LAPD air support was grounded because of it. Flight tracker data shows Kobe's chopper appeared to first encounter weather issues as it was above the L.A. Zoo. It circled that area at least 6 times at a very low altitude -- around 875 feet -- perhaps waiting for the fog to clear.
Play video content

FLIGHT TOWER AUDIO
We know the pilot contacted the control tower at Burbank Airport around 9:30 AM PT, and the tower was aware the pilot had been circling for about 15 minutes. The pilot eventually headed north along the 118 freeway before turning to the west, and started following above the 101 freeway around Woodland Hills, CA.
At around 9:40 AM they encounter more weather -- as in seriously heavy fog -- and the chopper turned south. This was critical, because they turned toward a mountainous area. The pilot suddenly and rapidly climbed from about 1200 feet up to 2000 feet.
However, moments later -- around 9:45 AM -- they flew into a mountain at 1700 feet. Flight tracker data shows they were flying at about 161 knots.




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Re: Kobe Bryant
Posted by: NewtonMP2100
Date: January 26, 2020 09:57PM
....and that was a loud boom......



_____________________________________

I reject your reality and substitute my own!
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Re: Kobe Bryant
Posted by: Bo
Date: January 26, 2020 09:57PM
Quote
DP
Quote
Bo
Quote
3d
Quote
DP
A true gentleman of the sports world. Never got into trouble, never shot his mouth off, etc. Sad to see this happen.

Uhhhh.... not sure many would agree with the above statement. But he was one of the best on the court.

Absolutely tragic news and a great loss do no doubt! That said, as 3D indicated, he certainly did get into trouble and that is a part of his story that cannot be overlooked.

So I should've qualified the statement as in: he wasn't, comparatively speaking, getting in trouble, as a lot of professional athletes do or have done, with drugs or other stupid things, nor did he beat up his fiancé in an elevator (Ray Rice), or run a dog fighting racket (Michael Vick), or murder a friend (Aaron Hernandez).

So, comparatively speaking...

Comparatively speaking, many would consider it worse.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/26/2020 10:00PM by Bo.
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Re: Kobe Bryant
Posted by: Carnos Jax
Date: January 26, 2020 10:12PM
Quote
pRICE cUBE
Quote
Carnos Jax
Some aviation back channel chatter is starting to paint a picture that this could be a case of controlled flight into terrain (CFIT). Looks like the cloud base (ceiling) dropped and the helicopter flew into a mountain. This is a very common cause of aviation accidents, difficult to be too hard on the pilot, as they're impossible to eliminate altogether. Great strides have been made to reduce their frequency. But they're bound to occur every now and then. RIP Mamba and friends.



TMZ reports the fog contributed to the pilots actions.
[www.tmz.com]

4:30 PM PT -- L.A. weather was extremely foggy Sunday morning, and law enforcement sources tell us even LAPD air support was grounded because of it. Flight tracker data shows Kobe's chopper appeared to first encounter weather issues as it was above the L.A. Zoo. It circled that area at least 6 times at a very low altitude -- around 875 feet -- perhaps waiting for the fog to clear.
Play video content

FLIGHT TOWER AUDIO
We know the pilot contacted the control tower at Burbank Airport around 9:30 AM PT, and the tower was aware the pilot had been circling for about 15 minutes. The pilot eventually headed north along the 118 freeway before turning to the west, and started following above the 101 freeway around Woodland Hills, CA.
At around 9:40 AM they encounter more weather -- as in seriously heavy fog -- and the chopper turned south. This was critical, because they turned toward a mountainous area. The pilot suddenly and rapidly climbed from about 1200 feet up to 2000 feet.
However, moments later -- around 9:45 AM -- they flew into a mountain at 1700 feet. Flight tracker data shows they were flying at about 161 knots.

As much as I can understand how things like this an happen, still is a damn shame.
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Re: Kobe Bryant
Posted by: vision63
Date: January 26, 2020 10:14PM
Quote
Lemon Drop
So tragic for his family and a huge loss to basketball. Kobe was one of the best athletes of our generation. A complicated man but he became a champion of women's causes while inspiring people everywhere to play hoops including of course his talented daughter.
RIP

His post NBA life was blossoming so well.
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Re: Kobe Bryant
Posted by: RgrF
Date: January 26, 2020 10:30PM
A professional pilot flying in conditions that grounded the LAPD and local News fleets maybe wasn't making his own decisions.
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Re: Kobe Bryant
Posted by: N-OS X-tasy!
Date: January 26, 2020 10:34PM
Quote
RgrF
A professional pilot flying in conditions that grounded the LAPD and local News fleets maybe wasn't making his own decisions.

I considered this possibility, too.



It is what it is.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/26/2020 10:37PM by N-OS X-tasy!.
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Re: Kobe Bryant
Posted by: Carnos Jax
Date: January 26, 2020 10:48PM
For sure such things happen, but from what I’ve heard local conditions were acceptable at first then deteriorated beyond minimums fast.
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Re: Kobe Bryant
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: January 27, 2020 05:06AM
A professional pilot flying in conditions that grounded the LAPD and local News fleets maybe wasn't making his own decisions.

Ultimately, he was.

He has the last say, or, as a professional pilot, he should have.

I hate to think that anybody on board somehow influenced the pilot to fly when the pilot thought otherwise.

Aaliyah was supposedly a victim of such a crash. At the time there were some reports that the pilot was told to fly even though the plane was over loaded with gear and people.

It also turned out the pilot was unlicensed or at least not certified for that plane type, and might have been impaired based on the autopsy findings.

I'm not a pilot so I may be off base in thinking 161k in a helo is awfully fast in conditions of dodgy visibility.

All that is for another thread.




When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men except
by believing all possible evil of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

Perfection is the enemy of progress. -Winston Churchill

-An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

Mister, that's a ten-gallon hat on a twenty-gallon head.

I *love* SIGs. It's Glocks I hate.
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Re: Kobe Bryant
Posted by: pRICE cUBE
Date: January 27, 2020 07:10AM
Quote
NewtonMP2100
.....same for JFK, Jr.......I believe......


Weather conditions did play a role in his piloting. If I recall correctly, he was not certified to fly off using just instruments.



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Re: Kobe Bryant
Posted by: Carnos Jax
Date: January 27, 2020 08:17AM
One thing though, hopefully at that speed their passing was instaneous and without suffering or awareness.
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Re: Kobe Bryant
Posted by: pRICE cUBE
Date: January 27, 2020 08:24AM
Quote
Carnos Jax
One thing though, hopefully at that speed their passing was instaneous and without suffering or awareness.


[www.espn.com]

Air traffic controllers noted poor visibility around Burbank, just to the north, and Van Nuys, to the northwest. After holding up the helicopter for other aircraft, the controllers cleared the Sikorsky S-76 to proceed north along Interstate 5 through Burbank before turning west to follow U.S. Route 101, the Ventura Highway.

Shortly after 9:40 a.m., the helicopter turned again, toward the southeast, and climbed to more than 2,000 feet above sea level. It then descended and crashed into a hillside at about 1,400 feet, according to data from Flightradar24.

When it struck the ground, the helicopter was flying at about 160 knots (184 mph) and descending at a rate of more than 4,000 feet per minute (45 mph), the Flightradar24 data showed.




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Re: Kobe Bryant
Posted by: Carnos Jax
Date: January 27, 2020 08:27AM
I wonder why he descended? His initial climbing turn is exactly what he was supposed to do when he lost visibility, and he seemed to be doing it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/27/2020 08:31AM by Carnos Jax.
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Re: Kobe Bryant
Posted by: deckeda
Date: January 27, 2020 08:32AM
They all hurt. This one a little more. I have a 13 yr old basketball player.

Unlike Kobe, we haven’t thus far been able to interest her in AAU play (the regional, non-school league available around the country). But it always thrills me to see her play, and she lit up her latest practice with renewed confidence with some moves she’s learned. Her middle school team continues in their post-season tourney in a few days. B-ball or not I can’t fathom losing her; she got big hugs last night certainly.
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Re: Kobe Bryant
Posted by: pRICE cUBE
Date: January 27, 2020 08:40AM
Quote
Carnos Jax
I wonder why he descended? His initial climbing turn is exactly what he was supposed to do when he lost visibility, and he seemed to be doing it.


People in the area of the crash reported hearing a helicopter sputtering before the impact sound. It maybe be possible he took correct action but something mechanical was askew.



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Re: Kobe Bryant
Posted by: 3d
Date: January 27, 2020 09:08AM
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Re: Kobe Bryant
Posted by: 3d
Date: January 27, 2020 09:14AM
I'll always remember....
Game 1 of the 2010 Lakers/Celtics NBA Finals was on the TV in the hospital delivery room when my daughter was born. Hah. Lakers won in 7. Kobe was MVP thumbs up
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Re: Kobe Bryant
Posted by: pRICE cUBE
Date: January 27, 2020 10:29AM
This man claims to be an audio witness. He is wearing a TWA hat and I believe I heard him say he was some kind of engineer. He says there was not a mechanical malfunction he could hear. He believes the dense fog led the pilot to be disoriented. [youtu.be]



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Re: Kobe Bryant
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: January 27, 2020 11:44AM
The helicopter had a cruise speed in that range but to a non-pilot (me) that seems fast for the conditions, but maybe not.

Helos can have IFR capability same as planes, I imagine, so it IFR flight comes down to the pilot.




When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men except
by believing all possible evil of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

Perfection is the enemy of progress. -Winston Churchill

-An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

Mister, that's a ten-gallon hat on a twenty-gallon head.

I *love* SIGs. It's Glocks I hate.
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Re: Kobe Bryant
Posted by: N-OS X-tasy!
Date: January 28, 2020 12:09AM
Quote
deckeda
They all hurt. This one a little more. I have a 13 yr old basketball player.

Unlike Kobe, we haven’t thus far been able to interest her in AAU play (the regional, non-school league available around the country). But it always thrills me to see her play, and she lit up her latest practice with renewed confidence with some moves she’s learned. Her middle school team continues in their post-season tourney in a few days. B-ball or not I can’t fathom losing her; she got big hugs last night certainly.

You (or she) may appreciate this: [www.latimes.com]



It is what it is.
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Re: Kobe Bryant
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: January 28, 2020 07:14AM
That was a well written and poignant article.

Thank you.




When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men except
by believing all possible evil of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

Perfection is the enemy of progress. -Winston Churchill

-An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

Mister, that's a ten-gallon hat on a twenty-gallon head.

I *love* SIGs. It's Glocks I hate.
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Re: Kobe Bryant
Posted by: pRICE cUBE
Date: January 28, 2020 08:30AM
By many accounts, the pilot was a cool and level headed person. He was qualified to fly using instruments which is required for low visibility flying.

[heavy.com]

Online records show that Zobayan was an instrument-rated pilot, meaning that he was qualified to fly in fog conditions. Rusty Barnes, the chief pilot of Barnes Aviation in Rockford, Illinois, told Heavy via email, “If you are on Instruments in IMC conditions, in this case Ara was flying on what’s called Special VFR or SVFR and not flying on Instruments at the time of the accident. SVFR refers to Special VFR, which allows a pilot to fly in lower visibility in controlled airspace. When giving flight reviews to helicopter pilots, I ask what that means. Occasionally, I am told that SVFR is not permitted at that airport.” Barnes added that SVFR is not permitted for fixed-wing aircraft.





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Re: Kobe Bryant
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: January 28, 2020 06:42PM
By many accounts, the pilot was a cool and level headed person. He was qualified to fly using instruments which is required for low visibility flying.

But according to that paragraph, wasn't on IFR but SVFR.


“If you are on Instruments in IMC conditions, in this case Ara was flying on what’s called Special VFR or SVFR and not flying on Instruments at the time of the accident.

There's a problem with that sentence.

“If you are on Instruments in IMC conditions...

That thought is never finished, at least to my understanding. Was he in IMC or not. Is SVFR permitted in IMC.

Fixed wings aren't permitted to fly SFVR, probably because they can't 'stop' or make a 90º turn if they had to.

I guess it'll still be awhile before all the details are available.

I really, really hope this doesn't come down to pilot error.




When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men except
by believing all possible evil of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

Perfection is the enemy of progress. -Winston Churchill

-An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

Mister, that's a ten-gallon hat on a twenty-gallon head.

I *love* SIGs. It's Glocks I hate.




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/28/2020 06:43PM by RAMd®d.
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Re: Kobe Bryant
Posted by: Carnos Jax
Date: January 28, 2020 07:40PM
He got into IMC at the very end there.....and as soon as he realized it, he appeared to do the procedurally correct thing (as I understand it) by initiating a climb and obtain a (temporary?) IFR clearance while turning away from any known obstacles.

I'm just puzzled by what appears to be a sudden descent at the very end, terminating in terrain.

And while I'm not familiar with helicopter operations, the chicken in me thinks, knowing where I was with terrain on both sides and ahead, and suddenly finding myself in the clouds, I would have come to a complete stop and hover, rotate 180-degrees (versus making the turn while maintaining forward speed), and then go back (while ascending). But I fully realize that with his hands full as it is, the pilot may have just lost track of where the terrain was and which way to go back.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/28/2020 07:46PM by Carnos Jax.
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