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I really wish that pilot would have just landed on a building or something
Posted by: chopper
Date: January 29, 2020 12:48PM
A distant friend of mine is a chopper pilot for a company in Hawaii. Depending on the day he can be in a small chopper or a dual engine large corporate one.

He's been flying for 40 years. He has very strict (personal) rules for flight and especially low vis situations.

He also has been known, when a customer plays the "I'm paying for this" card to put the bird down on the first avail flat-ish spot and give him the 'You fly it then, MFer' talk.

Not sure the latter is applicable here but .... just a shame really.
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Re: I really wish that pilot would have just landed on a building or something
Posted by: ztirffritz
Date: January 29, 2020 01:27PM
?



**************************************
MacResource User Map: [www.zeemaps.com]#
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Re: I really wish that pilot would have just landed on a building or something
Posted by: chopper
Date: January 29, 2020 01:36PM
?
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Re: I really wish that pilot would have just landed on a building or something
Posted by: vision63
Date: January 29, 2020 01:36PM
It's likely just a tragic mistake.
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Re: I really wish that pilot would have just landed on a building or something
Posted by: rjmacs
Date: January 29, 2020 01:37PM
We don't know what happened, and it will be a while before we do. Grief makes not knowing even more difficult, but in this case it's just part of the deal.



rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future
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Re: I really wish that pilot would have just landed on a building or something
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: January 29, 2020 02:30PM
Grief makes not knowing even more difficult, but in this case it's just part of the deal.

It does indeed.

I've tried to avoid rank speculation, and just consider possibilities as that and not make conclusions. I'm not always successful.

But to chopper's original post, the pilot flying Aaliyah and family (and friends?) apparently fell prey to the 'We're paying you...' card, according to one article I'd read.

I really hope this was not a '...against my better judgement' situation.




When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men except
by believing all possible evil of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

Perfection is the enemy of progress. -Winston Churchill

-An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

Mister, that's a ten-gallon hat on a twenty-gallon head.

I *love* SIGs. It's Glocks I hate.
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Re: I really wish that pilot would have just landed on a building or something
Posted by: Speedy
Date: January 29, 2020 03:10PM
??



Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.
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Re: I really wish that pilot would have just landed on a building or something
Posted by: jdc
Date: January 29, 2020 03:24PM
Ego. Dont want to admit defeat in front of people, especially important ones.

This has some pretty good graphics explaining it all, i found it interesting...

[www.usatoday.com]



----


Edited 999 time(s). Last edit at 12:08PM by jdc.
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Re: I really wish that pilot would have just landed on a building or something
Posted by: Carnos Jax
Date: January 29, 2020 03:43PM
From what little I can glean from the situation so far, I don't think the pilot succumbed to any pressure. Looks like he did the right thing when he lost visibility (climb and turn away from obstacles...either intending to ask for an IFR clearance and/or go back).

But during that turn he either lost track of where terrain was or the chopper had some kind of malfunction and started falling from the sky (regarding the fast descent/fall during the end).
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Re: I really wish that pilot would have just landed on a building or something
Posted by: MrNoBody
Date: January 29, 2020 03:53PM
...put the bird down on the first avail flat-ish spot...

Yeah that isn't happening with something big like a Sikorsky S-76 or even a
Bell 429 GlobalRanger. Big, Blackhawk size commercial birds need real estate!

Now maybe an old Hughes OH-6 or a MD500 could be sit down easier in tight confines but not with me on board!



39°36'17"N 75°44'43"W
...word salad is not a disorder, it is a symptom...

“If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't understand it yourself.”
-Albert Einstein

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Re: I really wish that pilot would have just landed on a building or something
Posted by: chopper
Date: January 29, 2020 04:54PM
<<Yeah that isn't happening with something big like a Sikorsky S-76 or even a
Bell 429 GlobalRanger. Big, Blackhawk size commercial birds need real estate! >>

He was flying over parking lots.
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Re: I really wish that pilot would have just landed on a building or something
Posted by: chopper
Date: January 29, 2020 05:01PM
??
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Re: I really wish that pilot would have just landed on a building or something
Posted by: Ombligo
Date: January 29, 2020 05:33PM
Quote
chopper
He was flying over parking lots.

Which may have had cars and people in it, or had powerlines (the pilot would have to assume both). In the thick fog, did the pilot even know where the parking lot was? It is easy to say what could have been done after the fact.



“No persons are more frequently wrong, than those who will not admit they are wrong.”
-- François de La Rochefoucauld

"WE CALL BS!" -- Emma Gonzalez
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Re: I really wish that pilot would have just landed on a building or something
Posted by: cbelt3
Date: January 29, 2020 05:42PM
Too much expert opinion. Like most cases, waiting (a long time) for the NTSB report will give the most complete answer.

We mourn the dead. Let them rest. Remember the positives. Blame is irrelevant to the loss.
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Re: I really wish that pilot would have just landed on a building or something
Posted by: ztirffritz
Date: January 29, 2020 06:06PM
Was there a plane crash somewhere? What is this about?



**************************************
MacResource User Map: [www.zeemaps.com]#
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Re: I really wish that pilot would have just landed on a building or something
Posted by: clay
Date: January 29, 2020 06:33PM
Kobe, I'm guessing.
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Re: I really wish that pilot would have just landed on a building or something
Posted by: testcase
Date: January 29, 2020 07:07PM
It's VERY easy for a pilot to overestimate his/her capabilities. The pilot on Kobe's chopper was very experienced so, this could be an easy trap to fall into.

It will be quite a while before the final report is released by the NTSB (think ~ two years) but, a preliminary report should be issued much sooner. I'm wondering why an experienced pilot, when faced with such poor visibility didn't climb and then request assistance from ATC (Air Traffic Control). The three basic rules when a pilot gets in trouble (after flying the aircraft, of course) is to COMMUNICATE - CONFESS -COMPLY. Questions about why can be addressed AFTER the aircraft is SAFELY back on the ground (as well as any/all reports/paperwork that will need to be filed).

I won't be surprised if the final report announces some mechanical issues. Couple very poor visibility with a surprise mechanical problem could explain why an experienced pilot fell so far behind the safety curve.
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Re: I really wish that pilot would have just landed on a building or something
Posted by: Bill in NC
Date: January 29, 2020 07:31PM
Quote
Carnos Jax
From what little I can glean from the situation so far, I don't think the pilot succumbed to any pressure. Looks like he did the right thing when he lost visibility (climb and turn away from obstacles...either intending to ask for an IFR clearance and/or go back).

But during that turn he either lost track of where terrain was or the chopper had some kind of malfunction and started falling from the sky (regarding the fast descent/fall during the end).

Yep, everyone should keep in mind some witnesses reported the engine was stuttering.
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Re: I really wish that pilot would have just landed on a building or something
Posted by: Harbourmaster
Date: January 29, 2020 09:06PM
Quote
testcase
I'm wondering why an experienced pilot, when faced with such poor visibility didn't climb and then request assistance from ATC (Air Traffic Control).

Apparently he did...

[www.cbc.ca]



Aloha, Ken


“I have developed significant attachments to several members even though I wouldn't recognize them if I sat next to one on a park bench. I'm often tempted when in an airport to walk around, hollering "The Løpe", to see if anyone other than the Homeland Security people will acknowledge me. ” - The Løpe
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Re: I really wish that pilot would have just landed on a building or something
Posted by: MrNoBody
Date: January 29, 2020 09:43PM
Yep, everyone should keep in mind some witnesses reported the engine was stuttering.

S-76 has two turboshaft engines, independently linked to the drivebox.
It could lose power and still fly if the failing engine didn't do any damage.

But, as others have noted there's just too many variables to know at this time.
jmo, but "witnesses" are often not reliable.



39°36'17"N 75°44'43"W
...word salad is not a disorder, it is a symptom...

“If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't understand it yourself.”
-Albert Einstein





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/29/2020 09:44PM by MrNoBody.
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Re: I really wish that pilot would have just landed on a building or something
Posted by: N-OS X-tasy!
Date: January 30, 2020 12:46AM
Quote
chopper
<<Yeah that isn't happening with something big like a Sikorsky S-76 or even a
Bell 429 GlobalRanger. Big, Blackhawk size commercial birds need real estate! >>

He was flying over parking lots.

...early on a Sunday morning.



It is what it is.
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Re: I really wish that pilot would have just landed on a building or something
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: January 30, 2020 01:01AM
Ego. Dont want to admit defeat in front of people, especially important ones.


That's a BS response based on what, exactly?

That graphic falls far short of 'explaining it all'.

All it gives is the flight path, it doesn't provide more than an iota of the how or why the crash occurred.

There was fog/poor visibility involved.

Yep, USA Today solved it.

The NTSB can rubber stamp it and take the rest of the day off.


Too much expert opinion.

Agreed.




When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men except
by believing all possible evil of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

Perfection is the enemy of progress. -Winston Churchill

-An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

Mister, that's a ten-gallon hat on a twenty-gallon head.

I *love* SIGs. It's Glocks I hate.
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Re: I really wish that pilot would have just landed on a building or something
Posted by: pqrst
Date: January 30, 2020 01:52AM
Apparently there is no requirement for a data recorder in helicopters. It seems like should change. With the price of data storage so low and the number of data streams in modern avionics there seems be no reason not too.
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Re: I really wish that pilot would have just landed on a building or something
Posted by: Sam3
Date: January 30, 2020 05:48AM
I wonder if he had climbed because visibility was better and the fog was less dense, then all of a sudden he hit a very dense wall of fog, causing him to decide to go low to regain visibility, becoming disoriented and not realizing that he wasn't in a valley anymore but flying right into a mountain.
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Re: I really wish that pilot would have just landed on a building or something
Posted by: Bill in NC
Date: January 30, 2020 06:23AM
Quote
Sam3
I wonder if he had climbed because visibility was better and the fog was less dense, then all of a sudden he hit a very dense wall of fog, causing him to decide to go low to regain visibility, becoming disoriented and not realizing that he wasn't in a valley anymore but flying right into a mountain.

Assuming there wan't a mechanical failure, disorientation after losing all visual cues seems to be the consensus view right now.

And some of the articles I've read have some scary quotes...e.g. a helicopter designer claiming he'd never fly on one.
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Re: I really wish that pilot would have just landed on a building or something
Posted by: Mactel
Date: January 30, 2020 08:10AM
Quote
pqrst
Apparently there is no requirement for a data recorder in helicopters. It seems like should change. With the price of data storage so low and the number of data streams in modern avionics there seems be no reason not too.

Colbert mentioned this when he spoke about the tragedy.
[youtu.be]
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Re: I really wish that pilot would have just landed on a building or something
Posted by: macphanatic
Date: January 30, 2020 05:15PM
Quote
Sam3
I wonder if he had climbed because visibility was better and the fog was less dense, then all of a sudden he hit a very dense wall of fog, causing him to decide to go low to regain visibility, becoming disoriented and not realizing that he wasn't in a valley anymore but flying right into a mountain.

One helicopter pilot that I saw interviewed talked about a phenomenon that pilots sometimes suffer from that involves getting fluid in the ears that impacts vision and perception. The result is that the pilot believes that the aircraft is turning when it isn't and tries to correct. Problem is that they continue to think that correction is needed. He stated that he had no knowledge that this is what occurred, just that it might have.
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Re: I really wish that pilot would have just landed on a building or something
Posted by: N-OS X-tasy!
Date: January 30, 2020 08:52PM
Quote
macphanatic
Quote
Sam3
I wonder if he had climbed because visibility was better and the fog was less dense, then all of a sudden he hit a very dense wall of fog, causing him to decide to go low to regain visibility, becoming disoriented and not realizing that he wasn't in a valley anymore but flying right into a mountain.

One helicopter pilot that I saw interviewed talked about a phenomenon that pilots sometimes suffer from that involves getting fluid in the ears that impacts vision and perception. The result is that the pilot believes that the aircraft is turning when it isn't and tries to correct. Problem is that they continue to think that correction is needed. He stated that he had no knowledge that this is what occurred, just that it might have.

That phenomenon has nothing to do with getting fluid in the ear. It occurs almost universally when a pilot loses site of the horizon and almost always leads to the pilot going into what is known as a "graveyard spiral."

[www.boldmethod.com]



It is what it is.
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