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Apple IMHO goes too far with form over function.
Posted by: Wags
Date: May 25, 2020 05:45PM
First, put a red band on the right channel of the headphones. Second, put the charging port on the end of the mouse so's you can keep using it while charging (I'll probably go back to a wired mouse like I did with their stupid keyboard). Third, I'm so over how trendy my iMac looks, put the some ports on the front where they can be easily accessed. Start with the SD card slot.
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Re: Apple IMHO goes too far with form over function.
Posted by: davemchine
Date: May 25, 2020 05:54PM
Apple hasn't produced anything I have wanted in quite awhile with the exception of the AirPods. Every update seems to remove features but comes with a big "improved" sticker. I have no idea what they are thinking anymore. It's like the days before Steve Jobs rejoined the company.





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/25/2020 05:56PM by davemchine.
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Re: Apple IMHO goes too far with form over function.
Posted by: S. Pupp
Date: May 25, 2020 06:28PM
Trying to explain to my 80 year old mother that the sd card is on the back of her iMac was not enjoyable.
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Re: Apple IMHO goes too far with form over function.
Posted by: M A V I C
Date: May 25, 2020 06:58PM
The new Mac Mini is pretty nice, though they removed the audio input port.




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Re: Apple IMHO goes too far with form over function.
Posted by: jdc
Date: May 25, 2020 07:26PM
All of our macs, iMacs and MBPs have SD card readers. Used them zero times in the last 10 years.

apples mice are awful -- ergonomically. but the whole charging port on the bottom thing is fine. peeps need to get over it. You only get 500 notices before the battery dies. Plug it in for 5 minutes = hours of use.

Nothing wrong with apple AL keyboards. unless you are a heavy handed typist and like mechanical stuff. Or if your name is Bob.

not sure which mac you have, but getting ports on the front aint hard -- any 2012 or newer imac, 21/27":




----


Edited 999 time(s). Last edit at 12:08PM by jdc.
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Re: Apple IMHO goes too far with form over function.
Posted by: sekker
Date: May 25, 2020 07:57PM
Apple hasn’t had front ports on an iMac in forever.

Their mice and keyboards honestly suck. But that’s not new either. Remember the hockey puck mouse? A $10 Logitech works better for me.

But I think their 27” 5k monitor is awesome on the newer iMacs.

AirPods Pro are great, and I have no complaints on the build quality of the iPhone and iPads.
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Re: Apple IMHO goes too far with form over function.
Posted by: Article Accelerator
Date: May 25, 2020 08:09PM
Quote
davemchine
It's like the days before Steve Jobs rejoined the company.

Actually, Dave, the things you dislike are Jobs's fault.
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Re: Apple IMHO goes too far with form over function.
Posted by: Sarcany
Date: May 25, 2020 08:21PM
Where would you put the SD card reader in front with a 5mm thick bezel?



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Re: Apple IMHO goes too far with form over function.
Posted by: davemchine
Date: May 25, 2020 08:41PM
Steve Jobs died October 5, 2011. I'm pretty sure the things I don't like are not his fault.
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Re: Apple IMHO goes too far with form over function.
Posted by: space-time
Date: May 25, 2020 08:49PM
First, put a red band on the right channel of the headphones.

I have no idea what this is about.
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Re: Apple IMHO goes too far with form over function.
Posted by: AllGold
Date: May 25, 2020 09:07PM
Wags, no argument from me.

Quote
jdc
All of our macs, iMacs and MBPs have SD card readers. Used them zero times in the last 10 years.

I use the SD reader on my MacBook Pro constantly (even when I have a multi-card reader attached because of CompactFlash, I still use the built-in SD reader). If my Mac Pro had one, I'd use that too.

Quote
Sarcany
Where would you put the SD card reader in front with a 5mm thick bezel?

That's part of the "form over function" complaint.



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Re: Apple IMHO goes too far with form over function.
Posted by: Rolando
Date: May 25, 2020 09:10PM
I ties a small knot in the right side of all my earbuds



San Antonio, TX (in the old city)


"All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke
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Re: Apple IMHO goes too far with form over function.
Posted by: Sarcany
Date: May 25, 2020 09:27PM
Quote
AllGold
Wags, no argument from me.

Quote
jdc
All of our macs, iMacs and MBPs have SD card readers. Used them zero times in the last 10 years.

I use the SD reader on my MacBook Pro constantly (even when I have a multi-card reader attached because of CompactFlash, I still use the built-in SD reader). If my Mac Pro had one, I'd use that too.

Quote
Sarcany
Where would you put the SD card reader in front with a 5mm thick bezel?

That's part of the "form over function" complaint.

I think you're missing a little industrial design on that point. There is a lot of utility in that design. The current iMac is lighter, easier to carry, and wastes less aluminum in the manufacturing process than the previous generation.

...Of course, nothing excuses the charging port on the bottom of the mouse.



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Re: Apple IMHO goes too far with form over function.
Posted by: jdc
Date: May 25, 2020 09:34PM
Quote
AllGold
That's part of the "form over function" complaint.

Thats my point. People dont use card readers. just like CD/DVD. Everyone went kicking and screaming, but eventually we got there.

I bet a huge percentage of peeps under 20 (25?) have no clue what a SD card even is. my 16 year old might, cause she has photography class this year... but I dont think the teacher is discussing tech.





----


Edited 999 time(s). Last edit at 12:08PM by jdc.
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Re: Apple IMHO goes too far with form over function.
Posted by: WHiiP
Date: May 25, 2020 09:56PM
Quote
Sarcany
Where would you put the SD card reader in front with a 5mm thick bezel?

If there is freakin' stupid room on the back, then there is stinkin' freaking room on the front!



Bill
Flagler Beach, FL 32136

Carpe Vino!

Fermentation may have been a greater discovery than fire.
— David Rains Wallace
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Re: Apple IMHO goes too far with form over function.
Posted by: Ken Sp.
Date: May 25, 2020 10:04PM
Agreed---Apple was always form follow function. In the Jony Ive era--form was all that mattered, function be damned. Even more so, when he got involved in the software.
He is gone now-THANK GOODNESS-and I am starting to see some improvements.
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Re: Apple IMHO goes too far with form over function.
Posted by: davemchine
Date: May 25, 2020 10:05PM
We could also argue what makes a computer "pro". Removing all the ports certainly isn't the answer.
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Re: Apple IMHO goes too far with form over function.
Posted by: jdc
Date: May 25, 2020 10:22PM
Quote
davemchine
We could also argue what makes a computer "pro". Removing all the ports certainly isn't the answer.

First we would need to define "pro"... right?

"Pro" as it pertains to what, exactly?

Id like to know....



----


Edited 999 time(s). Last edit at 12:08PM by jdc.
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Re: Apple IMHO goes too far with form over function.
Posted by: Markintosh
Date: May 25, 2020 10:33PM
I can't believe there is not the option anymore to back up my files to my cassette recorder like on my Amiga...and no built in modem for my dial up...

Time marches on...



“Live your life, love your life, don’t regret…live, learn and move forward positively.” – CR Johnson
Loving life in Lake Tahoe, CA
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Re: Apple IMHO goes too far with form over function.
Posted by: testcase
Date: May 25, 2020 11:03PM
Unlike Steve, Timmy has a queer umm unusual idea of what would provide an EXCELLENT user experience. Timmy also seems to live in a fantasy world where everybody has reasonably priced, unlimited wireless internet. sad smiley
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Re: Apple IMHO goes too far with form over function.
Posted by: jdc
Date: May 25, 2020 11:10PM
Quote
testcase
Unlike Steve, Timmy has a queer umm unusual idea of what would provide an EXCELLENT user experience. Timmy also seems to live in a fantasy world where everybody has reasonably priced, unlimited wireless internet. sad smiley

You had me all the way until the wireless internet thing. Cause I have no idea how that pertains to buying a Mac.



----


Edited 999 time(s). Last edit at 12:08PM by jdc.
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Re: Apple IMHO goes too far with form over function.
Posted by: OWC Larry
Date: May 25, 2020 11:37PM
Form over function? Apple, never. in addition to the glue taped iMac screen so it could be slimmer... from the side view and same from the front - but an extra pain to service), having the SD card on the back is just.... why I use my dock's reader.

glad current iMac uses less material... as they make them less upgradeable or less likely to be upgraded/serviced - more of them get retired ahead of their time, which counters that materials saving. Especially goes for the everything soldered laptops.

there has been more balance in the force lately... The new Mac mini brought back memory upgradeability while also taking the nearly decade long 16GB max up to 64GB. With what you can add via its Thunderbolt 3 ports, can make it a real powerhouse too. The first step forward in a while after two steps back with the 2014 mini.

Anyway....

Forward we go. smiling smiley



OWC Larry
Other World Computing
[www.macsales.com]
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Re: Apple IMHO goes too far with form over function.
Posted by: vision63
Date: May 26, 2020 12:20AM
Quote
OWC Larry
Form over function? Apple, never. in addition to the glue taped iMac screen so it could be slimmer... from the side view and same from the front - but an extra pain to service), having the SD card on the back is just.... why I use my dock's reader.

glad current iMac uses less material... as they make them less upgradeable or less likely to be upgraded/serviced - more of them get retired ahead of their time, which counters that materials saving. Especially goes for the everything soldered laptops.

there has been more balance in the force lately... The new Mac mini brought back memory upgradeability while also taking the nearly decade long 16GB max up to 64GB. With what you can add via its Thunderbolt 3 ports, can make it a real powerhouse too. The first step forward in a while after two steps back with the 2014 mini.

Anyway....

Forward we go. smiling smiley

16" MacBook Pro fattened up and the keyboard is a ton better. That's progress too!
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Re: Apple IMHO goes too far with form over function.
Posted by: C(-)ris
Date: May 26, 2020 12:29AM
Quote
vision63
Quote
OWC Larry
Form over function? Apple, never. in addition to the glue taped iMac screen so it could be slimmer... from the side view and same from the front - but an extra pain to service), having the SD card on the back is just.... why I use my dock's reader.

glad current iMac uses less material... as they make them less upgradeable or less likely to be upgraded/serviced - more of them get retired ahead of their time, which counters that materials saving. Especially goes for the everything soldered laptops.

there has been more balance in the force lately... The new Mac mini brought back memory upgradeability while also taking the nearly decade long 16GB max up to 64GB. With what you can add via its Thunderbolt 3 ports, can make it a real powerhouse too. The first step forward in a while after two steps back with the 2014 mini.

Anyway....

Forward we go. smiling smiley

16" MacBook Pro fattened up and the keyboard is a ton better. That's progress too!

You don't know the limit till you pass it, then you move back a bit.



C(-)ris
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Throwback Thursday Signature:
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Re: Apple IMHO goes too far with form over function.
Posted by: vision63
Date: May 26, 2020 12:30AM
Quote
C(-)ris
Quote
vision63
Quote
OWC Larry
Form over function? Apple, never. in addition to the glue taped iMac screen so it could be slimmer... from the side view and same from the front - but an extra pain to service), having the SD card on the back is just.... why I use my dock's reader.

glad current iMac uses less material... as they make them less upgradeable or less likely to be upgraded/serviced - more of them get retired ahead of their time, which counters that materials saving. Especially goes for the everything soldered laptops.

there has been more balance in the force lately... The new Mac mini brought back memory upgradeability while also taking the nearly decade long 16GB max up to 64GB. With what you can add via its Thunderbolt 3 ports, can make it a real powerhouse too. The first step forward in a while after two steps back with the 2014 mini.

Anyway....

Forward we go. smiling smiley

16" MacBook Pro fattened up and the keyboard is a ton better. That's progress too!

You don't know the limit till you pass it, then you move back a bit.

That makes sense.
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Re: Apple IMHO goes too far with form over function.
Posted by: N-OS X-tasy!
Date: May 26, 2020 01:18AM
Quote
Rolando
I ties a small knot in the right side of all my earbuds

Oh, HELLS no!



It is what it is.
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Re: Apple IMHO goes too far with form over function.
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: May 26, 2020 02:04AM
I have no idea what this is about.


It's about somebody's inability to tell the right EarPod from the left EarPod, or read the small font on eariler 'buds.

It may not keep somebody from putting them in upside down, though.

But if Apple has to do it for the Assisted Care bunch, then they should do it correctly and put a green band on the left one.

I'm one of the six people on Earth who is pretty much ok with the compromises Apple has made and does make for from over function, so my preferences carry equal weight as those pine for the 'old days'.

I give Apple beaucoup points for style in a world of me-too lookalike iron, especially when it's become a world of 'let's do what Apple does'.

I haven't use an SD card in a Mac more than three times if that.

A short Type A extension cable for those times when I want to temporarily plug in a wired keyboard, trackball, mouse, thumb drive, card reader, etc., works well enough for me.

So I prefer the look of a nice clean front of kit.



If there is freakin' stupid room on the back, then there is stinkin' freaking room on the front!


Ehh, no not really.




Apple could have done it as late as



but I think the nice clean front is preferable to the SD reader or any port on the front, and really, that all that matters.

Those who want the reader on the front are a tiny minority. They may be large in number but that pales in comparison to those who just don't care, which are far, far larger in number.

In my opinion, again the only one that matters, I want an even larger screen in the iMac with nearly the identical size case. That bezel around the screen is much too large. I demand it be the size of those on the latest 'Books.

As for a real crime against computer-using society for which Tim's feet should be held to fire, the 'removal' or modification of the sleep light LED indicator on the 2018 mini is unconscionable. Instead of the slow pulsing 'breathing' indication of the 2014 and earlier minis (and some other Macs) showing that it's sleeping, we now get the:

Status indicator light: A steady white light indicates that your Mac mini is awake or in sleep; no light indicates that your Mac mini is switched off.

that your Mac mini is awake or in sleep

WTF?! WTF3?!

First of all, other than some aesthetic sense, what benefit does this new SIL provide? One of my minis is on a lot, so I use Cont-Shft-Eject to turn the screen or monitor off while the mini chugs away, allowing me to watch TV on another Mac or read, without distraction.

If I'm doing something on another mini, that display gets turned off the same way. This feature is missed on the iMacs. I last recall it on the G5 iMac.

That's a real crime that need justice done!




When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men except
by believing all possible evil of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

Perfection is the enemy of progress. -Winston Churchill

-An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

Mister, that's a ten-gallon hat on a twenty-gallon head.

I *love* SIGs. It's Glocks I hate.
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Re: Apple IMHO goes too far with form over function.
Posted by: WHiiP
Date: May 26, 2020 07:06AM
Quote
RAMd®d

If there is freakin' stupid room on the back, then there is stinkin' freaking room on the front!


Ehh, no not really, but I think the nice clean front is preferable to the SD reader or any port on the front, and really, that all that matters.

Well you're just wrong here. Properly designed to begin with the ports could have been in the front. With Jony's direction he could have put a hologram right in front of the ports to make them "disappear." Or, they could flip out of the bottom of the frame and present themselves to the front. They could then flip back up and be hidden again. Yes, there would be a cord coming down. but Jony could have figured that out.

I love the "look" of the machine, but it is not Apple's finest moment.

And with this that follows, you truly do have an idea of what this thread is about!


Quote
RAMd®d
In my opinion, again the only one that matters, I want an even larger screen in the iMac with nearly the identical size case. That bezel around the screen is much too large. I demand it be the size of those on the latest 'Books.

As for a real crime against computer-using society for which Tim's feet should be held to fire, the 'removal' or modification of the sleep light LED indicator on the 2018 mini is unconscionable. Instead of the slow pulsing 'breathing' indication of the 2014 and earlier minis (and some other Macs) showing that it's sleeping, we now get the:

Status indicator light: A steady white light indicates that your Mac mini is awake or in sleep; no light indicates that your Mac mini is switched off.

that your Mac mini is awake or in sleep

WTF?! WTF3?!

First of all, other than some aesthetic sense, what benefit does this new SIL provide? One of my minis is on a lot, so I use Cont-Shft-Eject to turn the screen or monitor off while the mini chugs away, allowing me to watch TV on another Mac or read, without distraction.

If I'm doing something on another mini, that display gets turned off the same way. This feature is missed on the iMacs. I last recall it on the G5 iMac.

That's a real crime that need justice done!



Bill
Flagler Beach, FL 32136

Carpe Vino!

Fermentation may have been a greater discovery than fire.
— David Rains Wallace
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Re: Apple IMHO goes too far with form over function.
Posted by: RgrF
Date: May 26, 2020 08:16AM
Quote
C(-)ris
Quote
vision63
Quote
OWC Larry
Form over function? Apple, never. in addition to the glue taped iMac screen so it could be slimmer... from the side view and same from the front - but an extra pain to service), having the SD card on the back is just.... why I use my dock's reader.

glad current iMac uses less material... as they make them less upgradeable or less likely to be upgraded/serviced - more of them get retired ahead of their time, which counters that materials saving. Especially goes for the everything soldered laptops.

there has been more balance in the force lately... The new Mac mini brought back memory upgradeability while also taking the nearly decade long 16GB max up to 64GB. With what you can add via its Thunderbolt 3 ports, can make it a real powerhouse too. The first step forward in a while after two steps back with the 2014 mini.

Anyway....

Forward we go. smiling smiley

16" MacBook Pro fattened up and the keyboard is a ton better. That's progress too!

You don't know the limit till you pass it, then you move back a bit.

That would be the Peter Principle as it applies to computers?
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Re: Apple IMHO goes too far with form over function.
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: May 26, 2020 10:53AM
Well you're just wrong here.


In point of fact and context, I'm right, you're wrong.

Ive had a vision and with Jobs' approval, got what he wanted — a clean work of art, that also does computing.

There's no way an SD reader could be put on the front of that design without encroaching on the display's space.

Had Ive been designing tractors, I'm sure they'd have been more utilitarian in function and still look better than those from Ferrari and Lamborghini. But he wasn't.

There is no 'proper' there. No violation of computer law, but possibly of tradition.

Also in point of fact and context, yes the iMac could have been designed differently, or just left as one of the older iterations and had a card reader on the front. But that card just wasn't in the deck.



And with this that follows, you truly do have an idea of what this thread is about!


Of course I do.

You could have just asked, I would have told you.

LOL!




When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men except
by believing all possible evil of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

Perfection is the enemy of progress. -Winston Churchill

-An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

Mister, that's a ten-gallon hat on a twenty-gallon head.

I *love* SIGs. It's Glocks I hate.
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Re: Apple IMHO goes too far with form over function.
Posted by: NewtonMP2100
Date: May 26, 2020 01:37PM
....but.....but.....the stock is....zooming.......



_____________________________________

I reject your reality and substitute my own!
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Re: Apple IMHO goes too far with form over function.
Posted by: hal
Date: May 26, 2020 02:05PM
Quote
AllGold
Quote
Sarcany
Where would you put the SD card reader in front with a 5mm thick bezel?

That's part of the "form over function" complaint.

that cracked me up - yes, this is the essence of the issue
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Re: Apple IMHO goes too far with form over function.
Posted by: AllGold
Date: May 26, 2020 02:21PM
Quote
jdc
Quote
AllGold
That's part of the "form over function" complaint.

Thats my point. People dont use card readers. just like CD/DVD. Everyone went kicking and screaming, but eventually we got there.

You must have misread my post. The form over function comment was in response to Chris.

My response to you was that I use the SD reader on my MBP constantly. I realize I might be an outlier but I am the exact opposite of your point that "people don't use card readers."


Quote
Sarcany
Quote
AllGold

Quote
Sarcany
Where would you put the SD card reader in front with a 5mm thick bezel?

That's part of the "form over function" complaint.

I think you're missing a little industrial design on that point. There is a lot of utility in that design. The current iMac is lighter, easier to carry, and wastes less aluminum in the manufacturing process than the previous generation.

...Of course, nothing excuses the charging port on the bottom of the mouse.

And that's what I'm saying. Form over function is making an iMac thinner to the point of ridiculousness. Why does a desktop computer need to be as thin as possible (or easier to carry for that matter)?

On another note, I don't necessarily think an SD card reader or other ports should actually be on the front of an iMac. But the side is preferable to the back for anything more frequently plugged and unplugged.



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Re: Apple IMHO goes too far with form over function.
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: May 27, 2020 02:01PM
Why does a desktop computer need to be as thin as possible (or easier to carry for that matter)?


Or, why does a desktop computer need to be a thick box that can't be readily moved to another room if desired?

Obviously, it's a matter of the designer's intent.



The vision behind iMac has never wavered: Transform the desktop experience by fitting powerful, easy-to-use technology into an elegant, all-in-one design.

Yes, Apple designs value form over function.

Yes, that annoys some people.

Yes, not the majority, or at least not enough that Apple suffers.

Apple never designed the iMac to be a workstation. It was designed to be a personal home computer that didn't look like the beige boxes that scared the average consumer.

Jobs and Ive wanted something that could sit on a desk and be attractive, something for which one didn't have to make allowances or excuses.

The vision behind iMac has never wavered: Transform the desktop experience by fitting powerful, easy-to-use technology into an elegant, all-in-one design.

The G3 iMac was the fun friendly computer, with the G4 iMac looking a little more 'grown-up'. The G5 was more business like, suitable for the home or office.

So yes, the iMac is mainly a 'designer' computer, maybe without Rodeo Drive cachet, but something in which some function is sacrificed in some degree to form. A certain design elegance became Apple's priority after being disenchanted with the boxes.

Did Apple 'take it too far'? Depends on who you ask.

Some act as though some design commandments from the Mount have been violated and get themselves all in a lather.

I really like the design of the current iMacs, though they could do with a little less bezel, to my eye. I am a fan of the ports on the back even with the occasional inconvenience.

People confuse Apple doing something wrong with something they don't like.

Sometimes they're one in the same, but designing to a designer's eye is seldom one of them.

It doesn't mean we have to like it.

It so happens that more often than not, I do.




I couldn't steal Apple's first image on the page for the iMac from [www.apple.com] but the above demonstrates what I like about their design goal for the iMac. 'Look, ma! No wires!'

QED




When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men except
by believing all possible evil of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

Perfection is the enemy of progress. -Winston Churchill

-An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

Mister, that's a ten-gallon hat on a twenty-gallon head.

I *love* SIGs. It's Glocks I hate.
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Re: Apple IMHO goes too far with form over function.
Posted by: AllGold
Date: May 27, 2020 06:22PM
Quote
RAMd®d
People confuse Apple doing something wrong with something they don't like

It is human nature to equate the two.



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Re: Apple IMHO goes too far with form over function.
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: May 28, 2020 08:54AM
It is human nature to equate the two.

Which shows how flawed humans are.




When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men except
by believing all possible evil of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

Perfection is the enemy of progress. -Winston Churchill

-An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

Mister, that's a ten-gallon hat on a twenty-gallon head.

I *love* SIGs. It's Glocks I hate.
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