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What up with Statins?
Posted by: Wags
Date: May 26, 2020 08:13PM
Had a vid check-in with my doc today. He tried to get me on statins. Said may risk factor for a CV over 10 years would drop by less than 3%. No thanks.

Why would I?
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Re: What up with Statins?
Posted by: NewtonMP2100
Date: May 26, 2020 08:17PM
.....so you'd rather stick with the....Stati(n)s.....quo....????



_____________________________________

I reject your reality and substitute my own!
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Re: What up with Statins?
Posted by: Dennis S
Date: May 26, 2020 08:28PM
Three of my close relatives had the muscle problem sometimes associated with statins. Not for me.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/26/2020 08:28PM by Dennis S.
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Re: What up with Statins?
Posted by: Wags
Date: May 26, 2020 08:33PM
Quote
Dennis S
Three of my close relatives had the muscle problem sometimes associated with statins. Not for me.

Yup, my thoughts, too. Probably got a free statin pen from a rep or something.
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Re: What up with Statins?
Posted by: bfd
Date: May 26, 2020 08:52PM
What've you got to lose?
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Re: What up with Statins?
Posted by: rgG
Date: May 26, 2020 09:08PM
They literally nearly killed my husband, so, no.





Roswell, GA (Atlanta suburb)
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Re: What up with Statins?
Posted by: bik
Date: May 26, 2020 09:17PM
Don't know your age, cholesterol level, risk factors, or likelihood for side effects.

But here's what up with statins in my family...

Three of my grandparents died of heart disease before they were 70 – two before 65.

My father thought he was going to die in his 50s when he started having his heart problems.
But, he made it to 82 with the help of advancing technology and a cocktail of drugs including a statin.
When he died, it was Alzheimers, not his heart issues.

My brother is 10 years older than I, in his early 60s, and he recently had a procedure to clear some blockage, and a stent.

So, I have a strong family history and I've had borderline-high cholesterol since my 30s.

My doctor tells me, with my family history, it will be no surprise if I need some kind of heart procedure at some point. But, the goal would be to push it out as far as possible - my 70s or 80s instead of 50s or 60s.

I took a statin for about two weeks about three years ago. I had a side effect with that one and stopped without telling my doctor.

So, when I eventually told my new doctor, he understood and gave me a different statin. I've used it for about a year now with no side effects.
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Re: What up with Statins?
Posted by: NewtonMP2100
Date: May 26, 2020 09:27PM
....if you are at risk....I wouldn't ignore the danger of not taking them.......many have taken statins and then through diet and exercise gotten off of them.......



_____________________________________

I reject your reality and substitute my own!
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Re: What up with Statins?
Posted by: cbelt3
Date: May 26, 2020 10:16PM
AMA standards for cholesterol.
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Re: What up with Statins?
Posted by: anonymouse1
Date: May 26, 2020 10:50PM
1. For many folks, you can get as good results by changing your diet-drop the refined carbs and bad fats.

2. If you’re going to take statins, you MUST take supplementary vitamin coQ10.

3. The last time I looked, the all-causes mortality rate was the same if you take statins or you don’t.
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Re: What up with Statins?
Posted by: PeterB
Date: May 26, 2020 11:03PM
Hmmm. My experience is directly contradictory to anonymouse1:

1) Dietary change didn't alter my cholesterol a whole heckuva lot. The statin I'm on, on the other hand, has had a dramatic effect. This is likely because a number of people-- myself included-- may have high cholesterol at least partly because of genetics, the cholesterol being manufactured in your body in addition to whatever you ingest.

2) I haven't found any solid evidence that CoQ10 makes much, if any difference for statin-related symptoms. Also relevant: not all statins are alike... I'm tolerating a relatively low dose of the one I'm on now, and was on a different one for years that seemed to be OK but gave some GI symptoms, but the one before that was terrible and made me feel like cr@p. Of course, YMMV, and what is right for one person may not be right for another.

3) My GP would really disagree with this statement, since cardiovascular disease is the #1 killer of men in my age group, and the data looks pretty good that bringing down the cholesterol reduces risk of MI's and strokes.




Freya says, 'Hello from NOLA, baby!' (Laissez bon temps rouler!)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/26/2020 11:08PM by PeterB.
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Re: What up with Statins?
Posted by: testcase
Date: May 26, 2020 11:13PM
My TOTAL cholesterol number is good BUT, my HDLs are always lower than my MD would like. He put me on a 10mg statin years ago with the thought that by lowering the LDLs further, the HDL / LDL ratio would improve. He also told me to take Co-Q10 with the statin. old fogey smiley
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Re: What up with Statins?
Posted by: Don C
Date: May 26, 2020 11:22PM
At my last heart check, I had some minor blockage and my doc put me on a statin. I took them for a year or two but started hearing anecdotal bad things so I stopped taking them for a few months. At my next annual exam, he suggested that he would be so sad attending my funeral knowing that it could have been put off if I had just taken my meds. I resumed taking them and am not aware of any side effects. Certainly no myopathy.

We'll resume the conversation once annual physicals are resumed.
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Re: What up with Statins?
Posted by: Racer X
Date: May 27, 2020 12:23AM
Knights on White Statins?

had to be said.



********************************************
The police have no duty to respond. See Castle Rock v. Gonzales, 545 U.S. 748 (2005) or Warren v. District of Columbia[1] (444 A.2d. 1, D.C. Ct. of Ap. 1981)
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Re: What up with Statins?
Posted by: RgrF
Date: May 27, 2020 12:34AM
Quote
Racer X
Knights on White Statins?

had to be said.

stealing Newton's thunder gravity!
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Re: What up with Statins?
Posted by: Racer X
Date: May 27, 2020 01:19AM
merely a moment of weakness..... smiley-rpg028



********************************************
The police have no duty to respond. See Castle Rock v. Gonzales, 545 U.S. 748 (2005) or Warren v. District of Columbia[1] (444 A.2d. 1, D.C. Ct. of Ap. 1981)
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Re: What up with Statins?
Posted by: ka jowct
Date: May 27, 2020 06:10AM
I started on a 10mg dose last year, and noticed a change in my short-term memory that I didn’t want to live with. Doc changed to a 5mg dose and that has been OK. I haven’t had blood work since then but will find out this fall whether it has helped.



My life goes smoothly and in regular intervals
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Re: What up with Statins?
Posted by: tuqqer
Date: May 27, 2020 07:43AM
Glad doctors are starting to not suggest them. I think statins will eventually be put on the List of Withdrawn Drugs or at least relegated to the rarely used category. Too many great dietary alternatives to help lower cholesterol are known, and the safe range of mmol/liter is being questioned.

That said, I'm very libertarian when it comes to person choice of drugs. People should be able to take whatever they want into their own systems.



Mac Pro 2013 3.7GHz Quad-Core, 32G RAM Catalina 10.15.x Dual 25" Acer 1440p LCDs11" i5 MacBook Air
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Re: What up with Statins?
Posted by: stephen
Date: May 27, 2020 08:19AM
My late dad (an MD) refused to take them because of the muscle thing. I think he would have had fewer heart attacks had he taken them. I've taken simvastatin for 15 years with no ill effects.
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Re: What up with Statins?
Posted by: stephen
Date: May 27, 2020 08:21AM
And given my food choices, I would have almost certainly had heart issues before now.
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Re: What up with Statins?
Posted by: rjmacs
Date: May 27, 2020 08:43AM
I'm with PeterB. Familial hypercholesterolemia is a real thing, and for some of us no amount of dietary change or exercise regimen will lower our risks to typical levels. Statins are not for everyone, and they still have real risks for folks with FH. Healthcare choices are about calculated risks, which is where tuqqer's libertarian leanings come in handy. Let's keep the informed in informed consent.



rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/27/2020 08:44AM by rjmacs.
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Re: What up with Statins?
Posted by: tuqqer
Date: May 27, 2020 08:48AM
Quote
rjmacs
Healthcare choices are about calculated risks.

Spot on.



Mac Pro 2013 3.7GHz Quad-Core, 32G RAM Catalina 10.15.x Dual 25" Acer 1440p LCDs11" i5 MacBook Air
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Re: What up with Statins?
Posted by: Racer X
Date: May 27, 2020 09:26AM
Quote
rjmacs
I'm with PeterB. Familial hypercholesterolemia is a real thing, and for some of us no amount of dietary change or exercise regimen will lower our risks to typical levels. Statins are not for everyone, and they still have real risks for folks with FH. Healthcare choices are about calculated risks, which is where tuqqer's libertarian leanings come in handy. Let's keep the informed in informed consent.

My ex-wife's family had hereditary high blood pressure and high cholesterol. Great diet and daily exercise barely made a dent.



********************************************
The police have no duty to respond. See Castle Rock v. Gonzales, 545 U.S. 748 (2005) or Warren v. District of Columbia[1] (444 A.2d. 1, D.C. Ct. of Ap. 1981)
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Re: What up with Statins?
Posted by: dk62
Date: May 27, 2020 10:44AM
While the statins have been overused in the past, they have been definitely proven to reduce the risk of death in certain patient populations, to various degrees depending on patient characteristics. It is extremely naive to think that dietary changes alone will reduce risk factors in the majority of those patients. Not to mention that no one really knows how to do that properly (e.g., high-fat low-carb diet may be beneficial for improving the lipid profile in some more than low-fat diet).

But yes, there are definitely potential side effects, in some cases severe. Some of them can be mitigated by switching to another statin, some maybe not. My mother in law went through 4 of them until she found one she could tolerate. On a side note, she is thin, extremely active for her age, eating healthy food religiously, and having a really bad lipid profile. Her mother was similar, took no medication, and died early from heart attack. I, on the other hand, used to be morbidly obese, ate high fat food while being a couch potato and always had a perfect lipid profile. Genetics matters a lot.

I would suggest letting the physician determine what is your individual risk-benefit. Keep in mind that most of statins are off patent nowadays and thus not promoted by sales people, so I think that the fear of a pharma rep influencing your doctor is unfounded.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/27/2020 10:47AM by dk62.
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Re: What up with Statins?
Posted by: Lew Zealand
Date: May 27, 2020 11:17AM
My doc (since retired, still looking for a good replacement) was all about the final outcome. Did you live or die? Is your quality of life improved? I went off Niacin because question 1 leaned towards "die" as good data came out. He also leaned away from prescribing drugs if there was a better option like changes in diet and exercise for Diabetes, Hypertension,etc.

However he said that statins were the drugs with actual net positive outcomes and do prevent heart attacks and death for at-risk groups.
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Re: What up with Statins?
Posted by: freeradical
Date: May 27, 2020 11:27AM
Cholesterol levels are homeostatically regulated, and except for soluble fiber, diet has no affect on this.

This is where statins come in for those who have high levels, although I believe that the jury is still out as to whether lower cholesterol levels achieved this way truly result in different medical outcomes.

There are however, people with insanely high - quite literally grams per deciliter of blood - cholesterol levels, and perhaps intervention is justified here.
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Re: What up with Statins?
Posted by: NewtonMP2100
Date: May 27, 2020 11:30AM
.....like all medicine.....it is neither good nor bad.....the key is to find a good doctor which can be difficult to find......and use your own judgement.......



_____________________________________

I reject your reality and substitute my own!
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Re: What up with Statins?
Posted by: Wags
Date: May 27, 2020 11:41AM
So, my cholesterol levels are fine:

Cholesterol 187 mg/dL <=239 mg/dL

Triglyceride 59 mg/dL <=499 mg/dL

HDL Chol 72 mg/dL >=40 mg/dL

LDL Calc 103 mg/dL <=159 mg/dL

According to his algorithm my risk factor for CV in the next 10 years is 12.5% with no statins, drops to 9% with them.

No thanks, my 70 year old muscles are sore most of the time already.
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Re: What up with Statins?
Posted by: Racer X
Date: May 27, 2020 12:14PM
Quote
freeradical
Cholesterol levels are homeostatically regulated, and except for soluble fiber, diet has no affect on this.

This is where statins come in for those who have high levels, although I believe that the jury is still out as to whether lower cholesterol levels achieved this way truly result in different medical outcomes.

There are however, people with insanely high - quite literally grams per deciliter of blood - cholesterol levels, and perhaps intervention is justified here.

As I read this I am waiting on my morning huge bowl of oatmeal to cool. Fresh nutmeg is the trick for me.



********************************************
The police have no duty to respond. See Castle Rock v. Gonzales, 545 U.S. 748 (2005) or Warren v. District of Columbia[1] (444 A.2d. 1, D.C. Ct. of Ap. 1981)
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Re: What up with Statins?
Posted by: anonymouse1
Date: May 27, 2020 03:46PM
Quick updates:

Yes, the points about familial hyperlipidemia are entirely correct. I’m embarrassed that I forgot to mention that, and I’m grateful to those who did.

Second, it looks to me like the jury is out on whether statins have a positive impact on all-cause mortality. My best guess is that there are still some unknown variables out there. [www.health-heart.org]
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Re: What up with Statins?
Posted by: Michael
Date: May 27, 2020 05:39PM
My doc had my wife and I both start using Red Yeast Rice when our cholesterol got a bit over borderline rather than using statins. He said he'd prefer to not use them unless/until we were at substantially higher cholesterol levels. We walk a golf course 5 days a week and kayak for an hour and ride bikes for an hour on the other 2 days of the week, so we're pretty active. Both of our cholesterol levels are right at the borderline level with a pretty crummy diet, quite a bit of exercise and daily Red Yeast Rice. He's happy and so we're happy.
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Re: What up with Statins?
Posted by: pdq
Date: May 27, 2020 11:18PM
Quote
Wags
So, my cholesterol levels are fine:

Cholesterol 187 mg/dL <=239 mg/dL

Triglyceride 59 mg/dL <=499 mg/dL

HDL Chol 72 mg/dL >=40 mg/dL

LDL Calc 103 mg/dL <=159 mg/dL

According to his algorithm my risk factor for CV in the next 10 years is 12.5% with no statins, drops to 9% with them.

No thanks, my 70 year old muscles are sore most of the time already.

Personally, I would say with a Total/HDL ratio (way) under 3, your lipid profile should be a-ok as is. I think your doc is treating a number (the LDL) which is at worst marginal.

If anything, I would instead take a baby aspirin if your C reactive protein is above 1.0 mg/L. The baby-aspirin thing has gotten some unearned bad press lately from the statin-pusher crowd, but it should have fewer side effects and may improve other things, like colon cancer risk and possibly Alzheimer’s risk.
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Re: What up with Statins?
Posted by: wowzer
Date: May 28, 2020 07:18AM
The NNT shows the risk v harm. And IIRC, the NNT is a 5 yearsvrisk benefit.

[www.thennt.com]



All I ever really needed to know, I learned from watching Star Trek.
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Re: What up with Statins?
Posted by: rjmacs
Date: May 28, 2020 12:28PM
Quote
Michael
My doc had my wife and I both start using Red Yeast Rice when our cholesterol got a bit over borderline rather than using statins. He said he'd prefer to not use them unless/until we were at substantially higher cholesterol levels. We walk a golf course 5 days a week and kayak for an hour and ride bikes for an hour on the other 2 days of the week, so we're pretty active. Both of our cholesterol levels are right at the borderline level with a pretty crummy diet, quite a bit of exercise and daily Red Yeast Rice. He's happy and so we're happy.

You're on lovastatin. Red yeast rice is just a natural source.



rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/28/2020 12:34PM by rjmacs.
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Re: What up with Statins?
Posted by: S. Pupp
Date: May 30, 2020 02:04PM
If someone said they could reduce your risk of a heart attack over the next 10 years by 28%, would you be interested in what they have to say? A drop in absolute risk from 12.5% down to 9% is a reduction in risk of 28%.

Quote
pdq
The baby-aspirin thing has gotten some unearned bad press lately from the statin-pusher crowd, but it should have fewer side effects and may improve other things, like colon cancer risk and possibly Alzheimer’s risk.

Major bleeding events do not equate with “unearned bad press.”
Only take a baby aspirin if your doctor suggests it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/30/2020 02:15PM by S. Pupp.
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Re: What up with Statins?
Posted by: fauch
Date: May 31, 2020 04:48AM
My doctor put me on a low dose of Lipitor despite my cholesterol not being high because he wanted it to be "extra low" due to family history and type 2 diabetes. He seems to think this stuff is a miracle drug. I didn't argue with him and I am having no perceivable side effects, so I don't mind very much...
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Re: What up with Statins?
Posted by: RgrF
Date: May 31, 2020 05:27AM
Same thing, without the family history, I'm on lovestatin and low dose aspirin.
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