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Hey 'chip, bought a new car -- with a manual transmission
Posted by: jdc
Date: February 08, 2010 04:41PM
just thought you would like to know. =)

4-door, s Grand Touring with everything, silver, black leather, sun roof, Bose, navigation and 167 hp -- just like one pictured below...

[www.mazdausa.com]



----


Edited 999 time(s). Last edit at 12:08PM by jdc.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/08/2010 04:41PM by jdc.
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Re: Hey 'chip, bought a new car -- with a manual transmission
Posted by: N-OS X-tasy!
Date: February 08, 2010 04:48PM
I've been driving 30 years and in all that time I've only ever owned one car with AT - my first car, and only because I got it from a friend at a great price.



It is what it is.
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Re: Hey 'chip, bought a new car -- with a manual transmission
Posted by: Mini 9
Date: February 08, 2010 04:55PM
Dual clutch 'autos' beat manuals. nyah nyah. Change or get used to hearing this GRANDPA SHIFTER!
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Re: Hey 'chip, bought a new car -- with a manual transmission
Posted by: ztirffritz
Date: February 08, 2010 05:00PM
I just bought a 2000 VW Beetle GLS with a 5-speed. I'm loving it.



**************************************
MacResource User Map: [www.zeemaps.com]#
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Re: Hey 'chip, bought a new car -- with a manual transmission
Posted by: davester
Date: February 08, 2010 05:31PM
You're not really a man unless you drive a crash box like my Austin Healey. If you don't know what a crash box is, go back to your namby pamby car.



"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." (1987) -- Carl Sagan
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Re: Hey 'chip, bought a new car -- with a manual transmission
Posted by: Winston
Date: February 08, 2010 05:39PM
I really need to get a cheap manual shift car to teach my kids. My dad got a rebuilt 1954 army Jeep when I was a kid.

Would a Jeep be the best choice for learning (other than an Austin Healey, of course)?


- Winston



------------------------
Be seeing you.
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Re: Hey 'chip, bought a new car -- with a manual transmission
Posted by: Gareth
Date: February 08, 2010 05:41PM
Congrats! Long live the manual transmission.

Quote
Mini 9
Dual clutch 'autos' beat manuals. nyah nyah. Change or get used to hearing this GRANDPA SHIFTER!

That may be true, but it doesn't mean they are as much fun. Plus, traditional manuals have the added benefit of encouraging people to use hands-free devices or stay off their phone entirely. smiling smiley Ban the transmissions without clutch pedals!
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Re: Hey 'chip, bought a new car -- with a manual transmission
Posted by: N-OS X-tasy!
Date: February 08, 2010 05:48PM
What I appreciate most about manual transmissions is that they engage the driver in the act of driving.



It is what it is.
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Re: Hey 'chip, bought a new car -- with a manual transmission
Posted by: C(-)ris
Date: February 08, 2010 05:55PM
Quote
Winston
I really need to get a cheap manual shift car to teach my kids. My dad got a rebuilt 1954 army Jeep when I was a kid.

Would a Jeep be the best choice for learning (other than an Austin Healey, of course)?


- Winston

Whatever the cheapest POS car you can find is that still runs. I'd go for an old Jetta or a Fox.



C(-)ris
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Throwback Thursday Signature:
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Re: Hey 'chip, bought a new car -- with a manual transmission
Posted by: artie67
Date: February 08, 2010 06:11PM
Congrats! Great cars. Have a 2004 version and it has impressed everyone with its "fit and finish". Is it still made in Japan? I'm not too cool on the "Dame Edna" tail lights though. Love to find a clean Mazdaspeed 3, but not a good time to incur car payments.
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Re: Hey 'chip, bought a new car -- with a manual transmission
Posted by: Z
Date: February 08, 2010 06:30PM
Winston - I picked up a nice 1988 Volvo 244 sedan with 156k mi, five speed, with a dirty fuse that was preventing it from starting for $150 back in Nov. Even had new tires on it. Running and registered now, needs a steering rack and a couple of suspension bits replace and it'll be golden. Moral of the story - get an late-80s Volvo 240 for cheap and it'll be a good learner for them. 82-86 had biodegradable wiring harnesses, so make sure that's been replaced if you're looking earlier (where, coincidentally, there will likely be a greater concentration of manual transmissions.). Plus, it'll be safe for hte kids to learn in.
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Re: Hey 'chip, bought a new car -- with a manual transmission
Posted by: Winston
Date: February 08, 2010 06:42PM
Quote
Z
Winston - I picked up a nice 1988 Volvo 244 sedan with 156k mi, five speed, with a dirty fuse that was preventing it from starting for $150 back in Nov. Even had new tires on it. Running and registered now, needs a steering rack and a couple of suspension bits replace and it'll be golden. Moral of the story - get an late-80s Volvo 240 for cheap and it'll be a good learner for them. 82-86 had biodegradable wiring harnesses, so make sure that's been replaced if you're looking earlier (where, coincidentally, there will likely be a greater concentration of manual transmissions.). Plus, it'll be safe for hte kids to learn in.

My older daughter has said several times that she wants a Volvo 240. (My first car was a manual 1976 Volvo 244 DL. I'd still have it if it weren't for winter salt in the northeast - it was rusting from inside out, in a cancerous way which had no solution.)

Thanks for the suggestion.

- W



------------------------
Be seeing you.
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Re: Hey 'chip, bought a new car -- with a manual transmission
Posted by: Winston
Date: February 08, 2010 06:44PM
Quote
C(-)ris
Quote
Winston
I really need to get a cheap manual shift car to teach my kids. My dad got a rebuilt 1954 army Jeep when I was a kid.

Would a Jeep be the best choice for learning (other than an Austin Healey, of course)?


- Winston

Whatever the cheapest POS car you can find is that still runs. I'd go for an old Jetta or a Fox.

Thanks for the suggestion.

My concern is that learning to drive a manual transmission is very hard on the clutch, especially on modern cars with lightweight parts. Aren't VWs relatively expensive for new clutches? (What I've heard - could be wrong.)


- W



------------------------
Be seeing you.
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Re: Hey 'chip, bought a new car -- with a manual transmission
Posted by: microchip
Date: February 08, 2010 06:53PM
Congratulations!

I'm sure that's a fairly fun car. I like Mazda's, never driven one, but one of my friends owns an older Mazda3(with an AT despite my best attempts).

Enjoy it!
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Re: Hey 'chip, bought a new car -- with a manual transmission
Posted by: jdc
Date: February 08, 2010 07:12PM
sorry, should have posted the "fun" numbers

0-60 in 7.6, 15.8 in the qtr, 0.85 on skidpad

[www.motortrend.com]



----


Edited 999 time(s). Last edit at 12:08PM by jdc.
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Re: Hey 'chip, bought a new car -- with a manual transmission
Posted by: Mini 9
Date: February 08, 2010 07:53PM
what's the worst manual shift car you've driven.

Renault LeCar - for a 'car'.
A few trucks were pretty bad, too.

But the LeCar's shifter felt like it was in a paint bucket full of play-doh.
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Re: Hey 'chip, bought a new car -- with a manual transmission
Posted by: JoeH
Date: February 08, 2010 08:22PM
Quote
davester
You're not really a man unless you drive a crash box like my Austin Healey. If you don't know what a crash box is, go back to your namby pamby car.

Last crash box transmission I drove was a 1959 GMC highway coach. Fun stuff, my left leg was getting good excercise double-clutching that bus.
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Re: Hey 'chip, bought a new car -- with a manual transmission
Posted by: ztirffritz
Date: February 08, 2010 09:56PM
I learned in a 66 Corvair that was my dad's baby. He put me on a hill on McKnight Rd in Pittsburgh and said 'you better not drift backward'.



**************************************
MacResource User Map: [www.zeemaps.com]#
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Re: Hey 'chip, bought a new car -- with a manual transmission
Posted by: artie67
Date: February 08, 2010 11:36PM
Second the Renault. Friend had a 58' Dauphine with a shifter that was like a long "joy stick". The door handles all cracked and fell off and were replaced with "church-keys" (beer can openers). This was the era of lifting Morris Minors and Mini's onto the curb for a laugh. Pretty harmless fun by today's standards.
As to the Mazda AT, you can slide the shifter to the left and go through the gears manually.
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Re: Hey 'chip, bought a new car -- with a manual transmission
Posted by: Thrift Store Scott
Date: February 08, 2010 11:45PM
Quote
Winston
I really need to get a cheap manual shift car to teach my kids. My dad got a rebuilt 1954 army Jeep when I was a kid.

Would a Jeep be the best choice for learning (other than an Austin Healey, of course)?


- Winston
I'd say get something with a carburetor and very little power so it'll be intolerant of improper clutch engagement practices and will cough and go dead every time your kids mess up during their lessons. A late '70s/early '80s Toyota Corolla or Nissan (Datsun) 210 would fit those criteria, plus they're both RWD and replacing the clutch on them is relatively easy compared to modern FWD cars.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/08/2010 11:46PM by Thrift Store Scott.
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Re: Hey 'chip, bought a new car -- with a manual transmission
Posted by: Lux Interior
Date: February 09, 2010 02:25AM
Every time I rent a car here, they look at my passport and ask, "Can you drive a manual transmission?"

I say yes and they say, "Are you sure?"

Sitting on the peripherique, inching forward every few seconds, I wish I had an auto, however.
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Re: Hey 'chip, bought a new car -- with a manual transmission
Posted by: Octave Doctor
Date: February 09, 2010 02:28AM
Worst manual transmission in my nostalgic fleet of beaters? That POS 1970 Ford Maverick--three on a tree with Dutch Elm Blight, that pot metal collar on the steering column broke. Took a week to order in the part, than 2-3 hours to change it in the middle of February.

Needless to say, I've never owned another Ford.
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Re: Hey 'chip, bought a new car -- with a manual transmission
Posted by: Winston
Date: February 09, 2010 03:48AM
Quote
Thrift Store Scott
Quote
Winston
I really need to get a cheap manual shift car to teach my kids. My dad got a rebuilt 1954 army Jeep when I was a kid.

Would a Jeep be the best choice for learning (other than an Austin Healey, of course)?


- Winston
I'd say get something with a carburetor and very little power so it'll be intolerant of improper clutch engagement practices and will cough and go dead every time your kids mess up during their lessons. A late '70s/early '80s Toyota Corolla or Nissan (Datsun) 210 would fit those criteria, plus they're both RWD and replacing the clutch on them is relatively easy compared to modern FWD cars.

That about describes the '54 army Jeep. When we picked it up from the guy my dad bought it from he had me drive it home - without any instructions (I had the general idea, but had never done it). Lots of stalls, but I got there.


- W



------------------------
Be seeing you.
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Re: Hey 'chip, bought a new car -- with a manual transmission
Posted by: Winston
Date: February 09, 2010 03:54AM
Quote
Lux Interior
Every time I rent a car here, they look at my passport and ask, "Can you drive a manual transmission?"

I say yes and they say, "Are you sure?"

Sitting on the peripherique, inching forward every few seconds, I wish I had an auto, however.

Just watch out for the "priority on the right" rule.

I had a car when I lived in Paris in the early '80s. I remember driving in traffic when I was bumping mirrors with cars on both sides.

But while the traffic in Paris seems crazy to Americans, I found that far more drivers there pay attention and follow the driving rules than is the case in the US.


- W



------------------------
Be seeing you.
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Re: Hey 'chip, bought a new car -- with a manual transmission
Posted by: davester
Date: February 09, 2010 06:07AM
I think it would be silly to go to the hassle and expense of buying a car for the sole purpose of teaching someone to drive a manual. My 21 year old daughter bought a Miata 5 speed a few years ago and had never driven a manual. I taught her over a period of about an hour...no big deal. It's not exactly a necessary life skill. It would be like teaching someone to roller skate on the off chance that they wanted to try roller skating years from now.



"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." (1987) -- Carl Sagan
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Re: Hey 'chip, bought a new car -- with a manual transmission
Posted by: Winston
Date: February 09, 2010 06:23AM
Quote
davester
I think it would be silly to go to the hassle and expense of buying a car for the sole purpose of teaching someone to drive a manual. My 21 year old daughter bought a Miata 5 speed a few years ago and had never driven a manual. I taught her over a period of about an hour...no big deal. It's not exactly a necessary life skill. It would be like teaching someone to roller skate on the off chance that they wanted to try roller skating years from now.

That's probably why we haven't done it yet. My oldest is 21, and he was just on a road trip with friends, but couldn't help drive because the car was manual. Got me thinking about it. We have another one with a learner's permit, so may be in the market for an extra car next year.


- W



------------------------
Be seeing you.
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Re: Hey 'chip, bought a new car -- with a manual transmission
Posted by: cbelt3
Date: February 09, 2010 06:49AM
Teaching to drive on a stick is *not* hard on the clutch. It's merely hard on the teacher... hop, hop, stall..... hop, hop, stall....

Unless you're teaching a crash box gearset (translation- gears without synchromesh), then it's grind, grind, hop, hop, stall....

My mom taught me on a fullsized Ford passenger van. Three on the tree, clutch that seemed like it required 200lbs force, power NOTHING.
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Re: Hey 'chip, bought a new car -- with a manual transmission
Posted by: billb
Date: February 09, 2010 07:22AM
When you're good you only need the clutch to get the car (or truck) rolling.
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Re: Hey 'chip, bought a new car -- with a manual transmission
Posted by: Mini 9
Date: February 09, 2010 07:26AM
Best thing for me is I grew up with my first motorcycle at like 11 years old or so. The whole clutch/shift timing was ingrained in me when one morning years later my parents woke me up and showed me the new (to me used) car that they bought for me to drive ... with manual tranny.

I've since UNLEARNED the clutch part. Just shift, dammit. Who cares about using a pansy-assed clutch!? ;) [Still have that attitude on my current bike, too!]
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Re: Hey 'chip, bought a new car -- with a manual transmission
Posted by: Winston
Date: February 09, 2010 08:47AM
Quote
cbelt3
Teaching to drive on a stick is *not* hard on the clutch. It's merely hard on the teacher... hop, hop, stall..... hop, hop, stall....

That's not the impression I have from reading about modern cars. They've made the clutches lighter in weight, and they burn out more easily if abused. Lots of hills where we are.

One of the reasons I've considered a Jeep is that I figure it would have a more robust clutch. A truck would work too, but a Jeep (Wrangler) would be more practical for our needs.


I used to sometimes shift my old Volvo without the clutch. I think I did it with the army Jeep some too. It must have had synchromesh, because I don't remember much grinding.


- W



------------------------
Be seeing you.
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Re: Hey 'chip, bought a new car -- with a manual transmission
Posted by: mrbigstuff
Date: February 09, 2010 08:56AM
Quote
Z
Winston - I picked up a nice 1988 Volvo 244 sedan with 156k mi, five speed, with a dirty fuse that was preventing it from starting for $150 back in Nov. Even had new tires on it. Running and registered now, needs a steering rack and a couple of suspension bits replace and it'll be golden. Moral of the story - get an late-80s Volvo 240 for cheap and it'll be a good learner for them. 82-86 had biodegradable wiring harnesses, so make sure that's been replaced if you're looking earlier (where, coincidentally, there will likely be a greater concentration of manual transmissions.). Plus, it'll be safe for hte kids to learn in.

except if you have to replace the heater blower fan....!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1!!1!!

they built the car around that part, you that, right?

btw, which fuse was tarnished that prevented it from starting? (IIRC, the fuse box is under the shifter, no?)
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Re: Hey 'chip, bought a new car -- with a manual transmission
Posted by: mrbigstuff
Date: February 09, 2010 08:58AM
Quote
billb
When you're good you only need the clutch to get the car (or truck) rolling.

this is true. when i drove a large truck, i was told to not use the clutch by the owner. i thought he was mad until i started to listen closely to the engine and shift accordingly. it's actually a lot of fun and can be duplicated on cars if you're good ;)
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Re: Hey 'chip, bought a new car -- with a manual transmission
Posted by: billb
Date: February 09, 2010 09:24AM
Course, I met a guy from Oregon who was doing some cross country runs with an 18 wheeler with an 18 speed automatic transmission.
He wouldn't go back to a manual.
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Re: Hey 'chip, bought a new car -- with a manual transmission
Posted by: davester
Date: February 09, 2010 11:48AM
Quote
Winston
That's not the impression I have from reading about modern cars. They've made the clutches lighter in weight, and they burn out more easily if abused. Lots of hills where we are.

I don't think so. A clutch is a very simple arrangement of friction pad and pressure plate. The friction material is pretty universal and the pressure plate springs have to be rated for the strength of the typical driver's clutch leg and the torque capacity of the engine. A high performance clutch would have stronger springs (and therefore require more strength to disengage) so that you could get faster off-the-line high throttle starts, but who drives like that? Except for those racing applications a clutch is essentially a switch...it's either engaged or disengaged. There's really not much in there that could be made "heavier in weight" that would allow them to be abused more. The only abuse that the clutch won't be able to take is someone riding and slipping the clutch, which would be the same for a standard or high performance clutch.



"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." (1987) -- Carl Sagan



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/09/2010 11:50AM by davester.
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Re: Hey 'chip, bought a new car -- with a manual transmission
Posted by: freeradical
Date: February 09, 2010 12:12PM
Quote
Lux Interior
Every time I rent a car here, they look at my passport and ask, "Can you drive a manual transmission?"

I say yes and they say, "Are you sure?"

Sitting on the peripherique, inching forward every few seconds, I wish I had an auto, however.

Yeah, stop and go traffic is no fun at all with a manual transmission. I once had an old truck with a 3 speed non-synchromesh transmission. Now that was a real pain in traffic.
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Re: Hey 'chip, bought a new car -- with a manual transmission
Posted by: Mini 9
Date: February 09, 2010 12:19PM
good old thread
[forums.macresource.com]
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Re: Hey 'chip, bought a new car -- with a manual transmission
Posted by: Grateful11
Date: February 09, 2010 02:06PM
How come newer clutches have no feel to them? Someone said they are hydraulic and not
mechanical. I learned to drive on '72 Chevy PU with 3 on the tree. We test drove a Pontiac
Vibe last year and it was a manual no feel to the clutch at all I didn't like that. My wife can
drive anything from a golf cart to a 105hp cab tractor but she sure had a heck of a time with
that clutch in the Vibe.



Grateful11
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Re: Hey 'chip, bought a new car -- with a manual transmission
Posted by: davester
Date: February 09, 2010 02:19PM
Hydraulic clutches go waaaay back on European cars, to the 50s or earlier, but I think most american cars had mechanical clutch linkages up through at least the 70s. Quite a few newer cars have a clutch delay valve which is simply a one way restriction in the hydraulic line. The purpose is to slow the clutch engagement rate and get rid of herky jerky starts. Of course racers get rid of that gizmo right away because when you're on the track herky jerky is good.



"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." (1987) -- Carl Sagan
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Re: Hey 'chip, bought a new car -- with a manual transmission
Posted by: Winston
Date: February 09, 2010 02:20PM
Quote
davester
Quote
Winston
That's not the impression I have from reading about modern cars. They've made the clutches lighter in weight, and they burn out more easily if abused. Lots of hills where we are.

I don't think so. A clutch is a very simple arrangement of friction pad and pressure plate. The friction material is pretty universal and the pressure plate springs have to be rated for the strength of the typical driver's clutch leg and the torque capacity of the engine. A high performance clutch would have stronger springs (and therefore require more strength to disengage) so that you could get faster off-the-line high throttle starts, but who drives like that? Except for those racing applications a clutch is essentially a switch...it's either engaged or disengaged. There's really not much in there that could be made "heavier in weight" that would allow them to be abused more. The only abuse that the clutch won't be able to take is someone riding and slipping the clutch, which would be the same for a standard or high performance clutch.

Maybe it's that the clutch plates are lighter weight and are less resistant to warping if heated up too much, as with repeated efforts to engage the clutch properly. I tried Googling, but couldn't find anything about this. I don't think I made this up, but I can't find a reference. Might have been from a Car Talk episode.

Either way, the learning process puts some additional wear on a clutch, and I have four kids to teach. So a vehicle with a heavier-duty clutch (which I assume a Jeep would have) might make sense.

- W



------------------------
Be seeing you.
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Re: Hey 'chip, bought a new car -- with a manual transmission
Posted by: davester
Date: February 09, 2010 02:47PM
Quote
Winston
Either way, the learning process puts some additional wear on a clutch, and I have four kids to teach. So a vehicle with a heavier-duty clutch (which I assume a Jeep would have) might make sense.

Could be, or perhaps the opposite is true. A lightweight vehicle with a small engine would put much lower torque on the components and since the material strength is likely the same on both the lighter and heavier vehicle the wear might be less for the lightweight vehicle. I don't know this for a fact, just pointing out that heavier construction often doesn't mean more strength or better wear characteristics.



"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." (1987) -- Carl Sagan
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Re: Hey 'chip, bought a new car -- with a manual transmission
Posted by: Winston
Date: February 09, 2010 03:19PM
Quote
davester
Quote
Winston
Either way, the learning process puts some additional wear on a clutch, and I have four kids to teach. So a vehicle with a heavier-duty clutch (which I assume a Jeep would have) might make sense.

Could be, or perhaps the opposite is true. A lightweight vehicle with a small engine would put much lower torque on the components and since the material strength is likely the same on both the lighter and heavier vehicle the wear might be less for the lightweight vehicle. I don't know this for a fact, just pointing out that heavier construction often doesn't mean more strength or better wear characteristics.

Good point. My working assumption is that a vehicle designed for off-road and towing use would of necessity have heavier-duty parts, including the clutch.



------------------------
Be seeing you.
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Re: Hey 'chip, bought a new car -- with a manual transmission
Posted by: sunfalcon
Date: February 09, 2010 06:11PM
I think I saw somewhere recently where roughly 90% of all new cars are automatics. Who cares about teaching your kids when they most likely will never have to drive a stick?

I learned on a stick, and I like stick cars. However, I also like just sitting back and enjoying the experience without shifting all around the city. Ever try and eat a burger in city traffic shifting your car - man, that's a lot of fun.

I've got a 1996 Camaro SS with an automatic and shift kit. It chirps the tires in every gear and blows the doors off most cars - 13.9 in the quarter at over 100mph.

With that said - a friend of mine has a red Mazda 3 Hatchback with a stick and loves it.

Enjoy your new ride!!
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Re: Hey 'chip, bought a new car -- with a manual transmission
Posted by: Lux Interior
Date: February 10, 2010 01:31AM
Quote
Winston
Just watch out for the "priority on the right" rule.

I had a car when I lived in Paris in the early '80s. I remember driving in traffic when I was bumping mirrors with cars on both sides.

But while the traffic in Paris seems crazy to Americans, I found that far more drivers there pay attention and follow the driving rules than is the case in the US.

Paris traffic seems crazy to anyone outside of Paris! In Paris, incoming traffic has the right of way entering a roundabout. Outside of Paris (i.e. the rest of the world) the incoming traffic must yield. And then there is, as you mentioned, the "Priorité à droite" craziness.

For those who don't know this means that a car entering a road from the right has priority. So, you can be driving down a road and a car coming from a street to your right can just zip on in front of you! No "stop" or "yield" signs needed!

I find the biggest problem for me with this is the danger of getting rear-ended when I fail to take the right of way when entering a street! As an American, even with no stop sign, you at least slow down at an intersection. Especially if you can't see the traffic coming from the left, which is usually the case in Paris.
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