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Advice on camping in bear country?
Posted by: Mini 9
Date: May 08, 2010 08:31PM
Son will be camping at Glacier Nat'l Park in summer.
Been reading about bears and big cats. We don't live near anything like that.
Any tips from your experiences?

[www.nps.gov]

Bear Spray?
[www.nps.gov]

Interesting video
[www.youtube.com]
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Re: Advice on camping in bear country?
Posted by: testcase
Date: May 08, 2010 08:32PM
Don't?
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Re: Advice on camping in bear country?
Posted by: testcase
Date: May 08, 2010 08:33PM
...or at least have someone slower than you in the group!

;)
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Re: Advice on camping in bear country?
Posted by: Mini 9
Date: May 08, 2010 08:39PM
Quote
testcase
...or at least have someone slower than you in the group!

;)
That is my fatherly advice so far "just outrun someone else"
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Re: Advice on camping in bear country?
Posted by: AlphaDog
Date: May 08, 2010 08:45PM
When in doubt, ask the people at Glacier.

My friend and I were there last August, and it is spectacular. He'll have a great time.
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Re: Advice on camping in bear country?
Posted by: M>B>
Date: May 08, 2010 08:46PM
Old one (briefly)...

Two guys at a trail head. One guy is putting on his hiking boots and the other his running shoes. Boot guy asks his friend why he is putting on his running shoes. Shoe guy says it's bear country. Boot guy says don't be silly people can't out run a bear. Shoe guy says I know, I just have to out run you!
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Re: Advice on camping in bear country?
Posted by: Trouble
Date: May 08, 2010 08:50PM
Carry
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Re: Advice on camping in bear country?
Posted by: Mini 9
Date: May 08, 2010 08:53PM
He's a kid.
While he does shoot rifles and handguns, he doesn't carry.
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Re: Advice on camping in bear country?
Posted by: davester
Date: May 08, 2010 08:55PM
You need to talk to the rangers at the park. Bears vary in behaviour depending on species, time of year and specific locations and the rangers will know exactly what is going on in their area. The primary things to be concerned about are: 1) food storage (the rangers probably have rules about this) 2) smelly things (keep all fragrant items including toothpaste, soap etc out of the tent); 3) warning noises (I had a number of friends doing geologic research in Glacier and they generally carried several noise makers (bells) on the trail so that the bears could hear them coming (worst thing to do is surprise a grizzly)).



"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." (1987) -- Carl Sagan
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Re: Advice on camping in bear country?
Posted by: Psurfer
Date: May 08, 2010 08:57PM
Get a ~20ft strong cord or thin rope, to tie up your food supplies, to hang suspended over tree branch. Always hang all food/anything that would smell edible to a bear, unless you're hiking with it, or eating it.

You'll find a suitable rock to tie one end of the rope to, then toss it over a branch away from the tree's trunk. Put all foods in a sack, secure it to the other end of the rope, and send it upward to hang. To retrieve it down, use a long stick (the bear will not figure out that part...).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/08/2010 09:02PM by Psurfer.
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Re: Advice on camping in bear country?
Posted by: OWC Jamie
Date: May 08, 2010 09:01PM
I would carry if it were me. And concealed carry (if you have a permit) is now again legal in national parks as of February.

Of course, a couple jokes are in order -

A Boy Scout hiking in Glacier Park recently was chased by a grizzly bear. He reached safety in a ranger station only to be arrested by park rangers. It seems it is illegal to run through the park with a bear behind.

AND

The Forest Service has issued a BEAR WARNING in the national forests for this summer. They're urging everyone to protect themselves by wearing bells and carrying pepper spray.

Campers should be alert for signs of fresh bear activity, and they should be able to tell the difference between Black Bear dung and Grizzy Bear dung.

Black Bear dung is rather small and round. Sometimes you can see fruit seeds and/or squirrel fur in it.

Grizzly Bear dung has bells in it, and smells like pepper spray.



Good Luck!
Jamie Dresser
Other World Computing
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Re: Advice on camping in bear country?
Posted by: freeradical
Date: May 08, 2010 09:06PM
If it's allowed, I would bring a dog.

A bear alarm clock so to speak.
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Re: Advice on camping in bear country?
Posted by: numbered
Date: May 08, 2010 09:10PM
Davester has the right idea. The grizzlies are the concern, and they are often in sight of roads at Glacier. They are not afraid of humans. If your son is backpacking--instead of day hikes--he needs to be very aware. Bear canisters are a must (Sierra Nevada black bears now routinely defeat the hanging-your-food trick.)

Here is the Park Service bear page

The Park is spectacular, even if the glaciers are disappearing.
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Re: Advice on camping in bear country?
Posted by: Pat
Date: May 08, 2010 09:12PM
Edit: Slow typer, joke already posted.


On a more serious note, there's a time to be silent and enjoy nature, and a time to make a little noise and announce your presence. Personally, I despise the constant sound of bear bells on the trail.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/08/2010 09:13PM by Pat.
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Re: Advice on camping in bear country?
Posted by: davester
Date: May 08, 2010 09:13PM
Quote
OWC Jamie
I would carry if it were me.

You've got to be kidding. Even if you were dumb enough to waste time fumbling for your gun, anything short of a bazooka is only going to piss a grizzly off. The chances of someone downing a charging grizzly with an easily carried gun are probably about the same as being hit by lightning, discovering the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow and winning the lottery simultaneously.



"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." (1987) -- Carl Sagan
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Re: Advice on camping in bear country?
Posted by: Psurfer
Date: May 08, 2010 09:14PM
Better just to be smart about hanging supplies, aware to avoid bears whenever you can, etc, then relying on a handgun, which probably wouldn't help you from a big bear attack, anyway. No experienced (non-hunting) camper that I've ever heard of packs a piece in his pack.

Let's hope that guns in nat'l parks doesn't become a new trend. -That would make me scared.
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Re: Advice on camping in bear country?
Posted by: AlphaDog
Date: May 08, 2010 09:16PM
Quote
freeradical
If it's allowed, I would bring a dog.

A bear alarm clock so to speak.

Not allowed. They attract bears and mountain lions. smiling smiley

Seriously, folks, all of this is covered very nicely at the link I gave. I can understand why people would post here asking if there are any particular things recommended to see when traveling to a specific area, but asking here for advice about camping at Glacier?

However, eternal gratitude to maddog who recommended pie at the Park Cafe in St. Mary when I was preparing for my trip last year. Now that's the kind of trip advice this place is really good for!
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Re: Advice on camping in bear country?
Posted by: Trouble
Date: May 08, 2010 09:26PM
Quote
davester
Quote
OWC Jamie
I would carry if it were me.

You've got to be kidding. Even if you were dumb enough to waste time fumbling for your gun, anything short of a bazooka is only going to piss a grizzly off.

1) Carry. That doesn't mean put a weapon in the glovebox. It means carry.
2) It may just piss off a grizzly, but I'm willing to bet a handgun is more effective than harsh language.
3) I'm not advising using a .22. Carry a .45.
4) Ask 100 campers if they absolutely have to be in that situation, would they prefer to have a weapon or not and I'm willing to bet that 80 percent of them want that weapon. Ask 100 campers if they would prefer that someone in their group has a weapon, and I'm willing to bet 99 of them say yes.
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Re: Advice on camping in bear country?
Posted by: Trouble
Date: May 08, 2010 09:26PM
Quote
Psurfer
Let's hope that guns in nat'l parks doesn't become a new trend. -That would make me scared.

Why?
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Re: Advice on camping in bear country?
Posted by: decay
Date: May 08, 2010 09:28PM
add to the bear bag:

toothpaste, soap, gum - basically anything that smells.

don't be clever & think you can keep a snack in your tent with you - bears have EXCELLENT sniffers.



---
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Re: Advice on camping in bear country?
Posted by: Trouble
Date: May 08, 2010 09:34PM
Quote
decay
don't be clever & think you can keep a snack in your tent with you - bears have EXCELLENT sniffers.

And if an animal gets in your tent, you will lose.
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Re: Advice on camping in bear country?
Posted by: Dennis S
Date: May 08, 2010 09:47PM
Night watchman. Plus someone to watch the watchman so he doesn't go to sleep.
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Re: Advice on camping in bear country?
Posted by: ka jowct
Date: May 08, 2010 10:09PM
Quote
Trouble
Quote
Psurfer
Let's hope that guns in nat'l parks doesn't become a new trend. -That would make me scared.

Why?

Some of the stupidest behavior I've ever personally seen occurred in national parks: giving the morons guns wouldn't have improved anything.
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Re: Advice on camping in bear country?
Posted by: Don Kiyoti
Date: May 08, 2010 10:23PM
Dress him up in a bear suit and he'll pass for a local.





[picasaweb.google.com] [www.flickr.com]
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Re: Advice on camping in bear country?
Posted by: Mike Johnson
Date: May 08, 2010 10:33PM
Which is more likely to happen:

Grizzly threatens camper, camper shoots gun at grizzly, grizzly leaves
-or-
Grizzly threatens camper, camper shoots gun at grizzly, only it's not a grizzly, it's another camper, oops

Anyhow, AlphaDog's link is authoritative. There's not much to add except maybe to stress again and again to be super-extra-careful following the guidelines. We camped in Yellowstone two summers ago and one day there was a grizzly in the campground. The rangers chased it away before there was any trouble. But even after that, there were still campers who were careless about the food thing.

Some experienced campers are the ones who are most careless. Part of that is, It Hasn't Happened To Me So It Won't Happen To Me, and part of it is, they don't realize how much the grizzly population has grown in the past twenty years.

But hey, I felt safer camping with a five year old in Yellowstone with grizzlies around than I do when we go camping locally. Wheeler Gorge (outside of Ojai) is a nice place, don't get me wrong, but they get their fair share of tweakers and crackheads.
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Re: Advice on camping in bear country?
Posted by: Mini 9
Date: May 08, 2010 10:39PM
Perhaps they should string rope with bells on it for creatures to 'trip' up.
Was also thinking about the battery-operated motion sensors ringing the camp site. Of course test these out at home or somewhere first.

[www.mitechtrading.com]
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Re: Advice on camping in bear country?
Posted by: Trouble
Date: May 08, 2010 11:14PM
Quote
Mike Johnson
Which is more likely to happen:

Grizzly threatens camper, camper shoots gun at grizzly, grizzly leaves
-or-
Grizzly threatens camper, camper shoots gun at grizzly, only it's not a grizzly, it's another camper, oops

How about we don't assume the camper is an irresponsible idiot?
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Re: Advice on camping in bear country?
Posted by: davester
Date: May 08, 2010 11:16PM
Exactly what do you think you are going to do with motion sensors? Better that you sleep while animals are wandering through your campsite than you leap out of bed and alarm them. Paranoia and not thinking things through is taking over. Think about it...do normal people take motion sensors on camping trips?



"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." (1987) -- Carl Sagan
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Re: Advice on camping in bear country?
Posted by: Paul F.
Date: May 08, 2010 11:23PM
Carrying works.

Acquaintance of mine (father of a lady I went to school with from second grade through high school) was/is and avid camper and hiker.
Always carried his 3" S&W .357.
He ALSO was not stupid, and kept all his "smells like food" items in a "Bear Bag" hung from a tree a good distance away from his tent.

One night he was awakened by a bear tearing open his tent by his feet...
He shouted at the bear, and the bear promptly grabbed the foot of his sleeping bag and started dragging him out of the tent.
He grabbed his .357 and emptied it in the bears head.
The dead bear fell on him and pinned his legs, but didn't (fortunately) eat him.

Quote

You've got to be kidding. Even if you were dumb enough to waste time fumbling for your gun, anything short of a bazooka is only going to piss a grizzly off. The chances of someone downing a charging grizzly with an easily carried gun are probably about the same as being hit by lightning, discovering the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow and winning the lottery simultaneously.

Spoken like someone who know nothing about guns. At all.



Paul F.
-----
A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand. - Lucius Annaeus Seneca c. 5 BC - 65 AD
----
Good is the enemy of Excellent. Talent is not necessary for Excellence.
Persistence is necessary for Excellence. And Persistence is a Decision.

--

--

--
Eureka, CA
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Re: Advice on camping in bear country?
Posted by: Filliam H. Muffman
Date: May 08, 2010 11:25PM
Jamie beat me to the 'bells in it, and smells like pepper spray.'

One of the times I went camping with the usual suspects, we forgot to clean the cooking pots away from the campsite. A campsite about 200 yards away had their food bag pulled out of a tree because it was not high enough. We packed up quick and did double the mileage that day and did not even eat near the sleeping bags that night.



In tha 360. MRF User Map
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Re: Advice on camping in bear country?
Posted by: Mini 9
Date: May 08, 2010 11:26PM
the park's own site says loud noises is a possible effective deterrent.

people 'market' them for camping, too.
[shop.ebay.com]
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Re: Advice on camping in bear country?
Posted by: Paul F.
Date: May 08, 2010 11:38PM
Regarding "big cats"...
They are big, but they are cats. They will stalk their prey - be alert.
If a cat has gotten "up close" before you see him, Face him, be as loud and as big (waving arms, etc) as you can.
Don't charge him, but stand your ground, yell, and look like something he don't wanna mess with.

Works for Northern California mountain lions. Or rather, it works for a Forester I know that has been stalked twice by mountain lions.
(He also carries a Glock .45 in the woods).



Paul F.
-----
A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand. - Lucius Annaeus Seneca c. 5 BC - 65 AD
----
Good is the enemy of Excellent. Talent is not necessary for Excellence.
Persistence is necessary for Excellence. And Persistence is a Decision.

--

--

--
Eureka, CA
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Re: Advice on camping in bear country?
Posted by: Mini 9
Date: May 08, 2010 11:42PM
So, you guys think I could talk a chaperone into sneaking a gun into Amtrak's checked baggage, and carrying in the park, then? Technically, Amtrak will make (forced by legislation) pistols in carry-on legal later this year.
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Re: Advice on camping in bear country?
Posted by: Paul F.
Date: May 08, 2010 11:46PM
Wouldn't recommend trying to "sneak" anything anywhere...
Not even saying that carrying would be the "right" solution for you in this case.
Just saying that those that dismiss carrying a firearm in the woods out of hand aren't necessarily right.

Good bear-bag or locally recommended bear-resistant container for food, and not sneaking up a bear by accident are excellent places to start.



Paul F.
-----
A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand. - Lucius Annaeus Seneca c. 5 BC - 65 AD
----
Good is the enemy of Excellent. Talent is not necessary for Excellence.
Persistence is necessary for Excellence. And Persistence is a Decision.

--

--

--
Eureka, CA
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Re: Advice on camping in bear country?
Posted by: Dakota
Date: May 09, 2010 12:34AM
Quote
Paul F.
Carrying works.

Who do you think knows better? Your friend who successfully fends off a bear with his sidearm or the guy who lives in Berkeley and thinks Colt 45 is something you should keep in the fridge.
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Re: Advice on camping in bear country?
Posted by: Racer X
Date: May 09, 2010 02:34AM
Now, if you must carry in a park to fend off bears, carry something worthwhile like a .357 Magnum AT LEAST. S&W designed the .460 S&W and .500 S&W for dropping Grizzlies. (and Kodiaks and polar bears)

If that is not possibly, try and carry a smoothed, concealed .380 semi auto with a bobbed hammer and no sights, prefferably in a compact frame version. It will hurt far less when, after you irritate the bear with puny bullets bouncing off his skill, he shoves it up your butt.
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Re: Advice on camping in bear country?
Posted by: Mini 9
Date: May 09, 2010 09:52AM
again, I'm not going. It would be my son's butt, I guess.
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Re: Advice on camping in bear country?
Posted by: AlphaDog
Date: May 09, 2010 10:07AM
Quote
Mini 9
again, I'm not going. It would be my son's butt, I guess.

You know that, and I know that, but these guys get so caught up in their own little fantasies that they ignore the real question because it isn't as much fun to argue about as the one they make up. smiling smiley
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Re: Advice on camping in bear country?
Posted by: Rick-o
Date: May 09, 2010 10:33AM
Quote
Dakota
Quote
Paul F.
Carrying works.

Who do you think knows better? Your friend who successfully fends off a bear with his sidearm or the guy who lives in Berkeley and thinks Colt 45 is something you should keep in the fridge.

You should try to contain your hate to the other side. Statements like this only make you appear more foolish than you already are.



Mr. Lahey: A lot of people, don’t know how to drink. They drink against the grain of the liquor. And when you drink against the grain of the liquor? You lose.

Randy: What the @#$%& are you talking about?
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Re: Advice on camping in bear country?
Posted by: Mini 9
Date: May 09, 2010 10:39AM
Never lose sight of WHOSE BUTT IS BEING PACKED!!!!
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Re: Advice on camping in bear country?
Posted by: Rick-o
Date: May 09, 2010 10:49AM
After watching this video [www.youtube.com] I believe I would pack some type of firearm in bear country. You really don't have to shoot the bear to fend off an attack.

What do you think would have happened if these guys didn't have a gun?

I think I would be most worried stumbling over a momma bear with cubs!



Mr. Lahey: A lot of people, don’t know how to drink. They drink against the grain of the liquor. And when you drink against the grain of the liquor? You lose.

Randy: What the @#$%& are you talking about?
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Re: Advice on camping in bear country?
Posted by: davester
Date: May 09, 2010 11:22AM
Quote
Rick-o
After watching this video [www.youtube.com] I believe I would pack some type of firearm in bear country. You really don't have to shoot the bear to fend off an attack.

What do you think would have happened if these guys didn't have a gun?

I think I would be most worried stumbling over a momma bear with cubs!

That's a brown bear, not a grizzly. Mini 9 is talking about his son going to Glacier where grizzlies are the main issue. Very different situation and firing that pee shooter into the water might not help with a grizzly and it may not have helped in the video situation if that was a typical mock charge. Bear behaviour frequently includes a mock charge if they feel threatened during which they either run past you or back off to see if you will go away (generally good advice to take).

Mini 9, here's a more detailed discussion of steps to take in bear country:

[www.dryridge.com]



"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." (1987) -- Carl Sagan



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 05/09/2010 11:25AM by davester.
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Re: Advice on camping in bear country?
Posted by: Carnos Jax
Date: May 09, 2010 12:11PM
Quote
Dakota
Quote
Paul F.
Carrying works.

Who do you think knows better? Your friend who successfully fends off a bear with his sidearm or the guy who lives in Berkeley and thinks Colt 45 is something you should keep in the fridge.

Paul F. gives thoughtful answers. Dakota's are anything but.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/09/2010 12:11PM by Carnos Jax.
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Re: Advice on camping in bear country?
Posted by: Mike Johnson
Date: May 09, 2010 02:14PM
Quote
Trouble
How about we don't assume the camper is an irresponsible idiot?

How about we assume the grizzly is a vegetarian?

Edit: I should perhaps clarify my remarks about the likelihood of campers shooting other campers. I didn't write that as a response to the suggestion that OP's son carry a gun, but to buttress psurfer's observation that more guns in the national parks would probably make them less safe. I agree with him. As an occasional camper (and as a gun owner) I've seen way too many reckless/stupid/drunkass @#$%& in campgrounds all across the country.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/09/2010 02:21PM by Mike Johnson.
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Re: Advice on camping in bear country?
Posted by: Mini 9
Date: May 09, 2010 03:33PM
Quote
Rick-o
After watching this video [www.youtube.com] I believe I would pack some type of firearm in bear country. You really don't have to shoot the bear to fend off an attack.

What do you think would have happened if these guys didn't have a gun?

I think I would be most worried stumbling over a momma bear with cubs!

That is the video I was looking for last night. Thanks.
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Re: Advice on camping in bear country?
Posted by: AlphaDog
Date: May 09, 2010 06:43PM
So I did get to wondering how big the risk was of a bear attack, and I found "Ask a Bear"! According to him,

"It's pretty hard to compile bear attacks statistics on the whole, and my buddies usually don't like to brag about it, so let's take a look at fatal bear attacks, which are better covered because they almost always make the news and can be tracked by experts like Stephen Herrero and Tom Smith.

In the 2000s, there have been 27 fatal incidences so far in North America, resulting in 29 deaths. 15 were in Canada, three were in Alaska, two were in Tennessee, and single fatal attacks happened in New York, New Mexico, California, Pennsylvania, Colorado, Utah and Montana. 17 of those attacks were perpetrated by black bears, and 10 by grizzlies.

What can we learn from this, other than don't go to Canada (kidding!)? In truth, you don't have much to fear: That averages to just under 3 fatalities a year, when millions of people go into the backcountry or live near bear habitat. 26 people get killed by dogs every year, and 90 people are killed every year by lightning.

I can throw statistics at you all day about how getting killed by me is less likely than getting struck by lightning, but it wouldn't matter. I'm an enduring myth as old as humanity itself, with deep cultural ties that probably come from when we used to compete directly in forests and caves."

Read more of what he has to say at:
[www.backpacker.com]
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Re: Advice on camping in bear country?
Posted by: Trouble
Date: May 09, 2010 07:52PM
Quote
Mike Johnson
As an occasional camper (and as a gun owner) I've seen way too many reckless/stupid/drunkass @#$%& in campgrounds all across the country.

I can agree with that. My point was "If I had to be in that situation, I would prefer to be armed."
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Re: Advice on camping in bear country?
Posted by: Mini 9
Date: May 09, 2010 08:47PM
As with many crime statistics, I wonder how many bear attacks were thwarted by people? Meaning, with bear spray, playing dead, loud noises, smelly farts, and guns?
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Re: Advice on camping in bear country?
Posted by: Racer X
Date: May 09, 2010 09:14PM
very true. You can't create statistics on things that never occured. That's the fundamental problem with gun control.

You can't quantify lives saved because the bad guy ran off before he killed anyone when the almost victim pulled a concealed weapon to defend themselves, but in the end never had to fire.
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Re: Advice on camping in bear country?
Posted by: billb
Date: May 10, 2010 07:14AM
Quote
Dakota
Quote
Paul F.
Carrying works.

Who do you think knows better? Your friend who successfully fends off a bear with his sidearm or the guy who lives in Berkeley and thinks Colt 45 is something you should keep in the fridge.
I hope that's someone else's fridge.
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