[maddowblog.msnbc.msn.com]

Yet another story that really should be from the Onion, but isn't.

Green: So then they use the maybe legitimate exercises of a science study to get to the left wing indoctrination in because I'm assuming that with a book like that, you're talking elementary school kids right?

Olson: Yeah, very young kids. I think those were kindergartners.

Green: So you've got these kids who have never been exposed to any of this kind of stuff, have never thought about this kind of stuff, but you're already planting in their minds the whole union philosophy.

<snip>

"By the way, that's not only a pro-union book, it's an anti-creation book because it makes the animals equal to people. Those kids who come out of that kindergarten class are going to grow up to be attorneys who fight for the rights of cows, because cows are just like we are. Speciesism .... how arrogant to think that humans are a higher species than anything else.”

When did we become a nation of book burning idiots? Honestly it didn't seem this bad in the past.

My kids loved Click Clack Moo and I loved reading it with them.
Great book, hilarious. There was a cute sequel too but I don't recall the title.

If these people had their way the only children's books would be Ellis the Elephant by Callista Gingrich and Lynn Cheney's founding father worship stories.

They love books! Just try to take away their Little Black Sambo and see how they react!

Oh yeah the sequel is called "Duck for President"

That'll make their empty heads explode.

Tiny e loves Click Clack Moo. She's a chip off the ol commie block.

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Unpaid Social Liaison

it's crazy. animals acting like people.

I have to admit I noticed that quite a few of the short stories used in the 4th grade class I help in, explain how and why unions are important. I'm not ready to call Limbaugh or whatever, but it's pretty obvious they're doing a little "imposition". Not that there's anything particularly wrong with that, but it is a little self-serving. Or at least it certainly looks that way. kj.

Exactly which short stories would those be, kj? In what classes are these stories used? Social studies maybe?

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I'm dying to know which short stories these are. Because right now I am thinking about quoting that post of kj's on Facebook so my Friends can snicker and chortle along with me.

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"Stop thinking about art works as objects, and start thinking about them as triggers for experiences." ~ Brian Eno

They're for use on reading comprehension worksheets. I believe they are out of the "drops in a bucket" series. It's weird because usually you would try to pick subjects a 4th grader might be interested in, and they certainly don't care about unions. The teachers are really cool. But there is some odd stuff in some of the teachers' resource books. Another example that made me laugh, is that "Saxon Math" seems to use the time "4:20" an awful lot more than what you would expect from random. I wonder if the writers are being jokesters. kj.

Makes me think kj's head will explode if he ever discovers there are "easter eggs" hidden in software.

Yeah, that's funny Rog. kj.

Which ones, kj? What are the names of the short stories? We would like to read them and make up our own minds about it. It could be that the stories are emphasizing the value of cooperation, and that it is not a pro-union slant.

The every-MAN-for himself dogma the righties keep preaching is very tiresome, especially if you are a member of one of the many groups the GOP is trying to exclude from the freedoms that right-wing men feel is their birthright.

As for "Click Clack Moo," great story. We had a copy we passed around the neighborhood over and over. Many of the pages are now taped together, the mark of a well-loved children's book. I don't think any of our kids turned into commies. I think they just loved the absurd mind-picture of cows typing.

i don't like reading

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Unions fought against this type of crap:

[en.wikipedia.org]

[en.wikipedia.org]

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[www.giyf.com]

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Acer
They love books! Just try to take away their Little Black Sambo and see how they react!

Sambo was an Indian boy. It's a story about a boy who survives a run-in with hungry tigers. It's a very good story for young children. Don't take it away from them just because you misunderstand the title.

Some schmucks are such fanatics about "correcting" classic books that they've changed the character-name and title so in the modern text it's "Little Sam and the Tigers."

That's sick. It's neither political correctness nor racial sensitivity. It's neurotic. It's mental illness.

"The adventures of Sam and the Tigers" is an insult to the author and to the reader in the same way that Tom Sawyer's run-in with the "half-blooded American Indian Joe" and Huckleberry Finn's journey along the Mississippi with "Slave Cook Jim" are.

Talk to your kids and give them some context if you're concerned about what they'll take away from the books. Don't take away the books or censor them just because some of the ideas inside make you uncomfortable.

Censorship is bad Mmkay?

Here's some sample pages from Drops in the Bucket. I'm sure they deliberately buried the Commie bits, but FYI: [www.frog.com]

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kj wants kids to read books about animals that work 15 hours of casual overtime and don't take their vacation every year to help their generous CEOs buy a second summer home in the Hamptons.

I think when the strawmen start to appear, I'm going to disappear. kj.

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kj
I think when the strawmen start to appear, I'm going to disappear. kj.

Or you could ask everyone to hold tight a few days to give you a chance to scan a representative exercise or two that references unions, and offer that up when you have it and put everyone in their place (?)

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Black

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kj
I think when the strawmen start to appear, I'm going to disappear. kj.

Or you could ask everyone to hold tight a few days to give you a chance to scan a representative exercise or two that references unions, and offer that up when you have it and put everyone in their place (?)

I don't know about "put everyone in their place", but if I run across it I might. I can't imagine asking the teacher for it though. "You know that worksheet you handed out with the union stuff on it?: "Can I make a copy of it?" I remembered a bit more about it though. It was about a mistreated migrant worker who organized a union, and the beneficial effects it had for their treatment. Like I said, I don't have a huge problem with it, but it seems like a little bit of self-serving "PR".

Thing is, I'm not sure I want to replace Trouble as the resident right-wing wacko-a-mole. I've had at least a couple people pm me that I should just admit I'm a Limbaugh-listening, tea party guy. I guess it's fun to make-believe? kj.

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kj
I think when the strawmen start to appear, I'm going to disappear. kj.

In other words: I can't support my argument with facts, I've been called out, so I'm going to disappear.

More of the patented Made Up KJ Krap©.

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Uncle Wig

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kj
I think when the strawmen start to appear, I'm going to disappear. kj.

In other words: I can't support my argument with facts, I've been called out, so I'm going to disappear.

More of the patented Made Up KJ Krap©.

Uh, no. I'm referring to you're mischaracterization of my position by implying I said something about "commie bits". I never said anything like that. And Lux, the king of the strawman makers. How could I ever support an argument when he misrepresents my argument like that. It's a lost battle. But you know, just so it's fun for you guys... kj.

Ok, it took me about 2 minutes to find this. It's way more involved than what I was talking about, but these types of instructional materials are out there. Like I said, I don't think it's that big of a deal, but it's a little dirty. Not communist. Not brainwashing. But maybe a little self-serving.

[www.cft.org]

I'm not one who thinks "neutrality" is desirable or even possible in education, but there's nothing wrong with a little debate over what material is used in schools. kj.

This material was used in your classroom? I thought you said something about short stories in a fourth-grade class that encouraged unionism, and that you thought that was self-serving. The thing you referred to is an organized play-program that requires a parent's written permission for participation. It certainly is not a part of general public school curricula.

Also, why would short stories cooperation in the workplace be self-serving? There are short stories about lots of other things, like bravery in battle, solving mysteries, adventures in enchanted forests. On the nonfiction side, there are short biographies of people like Ronald Reagan and Walt Disney. Are these also self-serving?

Compare, contrast and discuss.

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kj
Ok, it took me about 2 minutes to find this. It's way more involved than what I was talking about, but these types of instructional materials are out there. Like I said, I don't think it's that big of a deal, but it's a little dirty. Not communist. Not brainwashing. But maybe a little self-serving.

[www.cft.org]

I'm not one who thinks "neutrality" is desirable or even possible in education, but there's nothing wrong with a little debate over what material is used in schools. kj.

Well, as Gutenberg pointed out, this is not what you said it was.

As to the material, it's an exercise describing the world of employment. To be complete, any such exercise would have to include a discussion of unions and what their purpose is. There is nothing political about inclusion of information regarding unions and collective bargaining in such a study guide. That you refer to this as "dirty" is mindblowing, and does suggest that you've been bent by the propaganda of Limbaugh, Beck, et al.

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kj
Ok, it took me about 2 minutes to find this. It's way more involved than what I was talking about, but these types of instructional materials are out there. Like I said, I don't think it's that big of a deal, but it's a little dirty. Not communist. Not brainwashing. But maybe a little self-serving.

[www.cft.org]

I'm not one who thinks "neutrality" is desirable or even possible in education, but there's nothing wrong with a little debate over what material is used in schools. kj.

I don't get this "dirty" reference. Would you feel the same way about school instruction in how to be a capitalist? I can guarantee you that there is plenty of that going on:

[www.microsociety.org]

[www.lessonplanet.com]

And then there is this program that I did for several years as a middle school teacher - [books.google.com]

I think that the Yummy Pizza Company thing is bizarre. HOWEVER, this is not what you were talking about in the first place, kj, you were discussing some kind of short stories. If you want to talk about the weird heavy-handed union literature of the CFT, that would probably be better off in a new thread.

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"Stop thinking about art works as objects, and start thinking about them as triggers for experiences." ~ Brian Eno

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kj
And Lux, the king of the strawman makers.

Sarcasm, man.

Look it up.

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kj
Ok, it took me about 2 minutes to find this. It's way more involved than what I was talking about, but these types of instructional materials are out there. Like I said, I don't think it's that big of a deal, but it's a little dirty. Not communist. Not brainwashing. But maybe a little self-serving.

[www.cft.org]

I'm not one who thinks "neutrality" is desirable or even possible in education, but there's nothing wrong with a little debate over what material is used in schools. kj.

Your example is irrelevant to your own argument.

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kj
Thing is, I'm not sure I want to replace Trouble as the resident right-wing wacko-a-mole. I've had at least a couple people pm me that I should just admit I'm a Limbaugh-listening, tea party guy. I guess it's fun to make-believe? kj.

I think you actually get more mileage out of this sort of "I'm only being victimized because of my right-leaning views" meme than you do out of trying to create the appearance of there being concrete support for your arguments.

I hadn't noticed Trouble was gone (?)

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Thing is, I'm not sure I want to replace Trouble as the resident right-wing wacko-a-mole. I've had at least a couple people pm me that I should just admit I'm a Limbaugh-listening, tea party guy. I guess it's fun to make-believe? kj.


It isn't that you're conservative; it's your tenuous grip on facts and your inability to use them to back up your arguments.

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Uncle Wig
Thing is, I'm not sure I want to replace Trouble as the resident right-wing wacko-a-mole. I've had at least a couple people pm me that I should just admit I'm a Limbaugh-listening, tea party guy. I guess it's fun to make-believe? kj.


It isn't that you're conservative; it's your tenuous grip on facts and your inability to use them to back up your arguments.

Truth be told, Trouble had exactly the same problem. Based on a sample size of 2, it appears that the most radical conservatives here are "fact-challenged".

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"So be proud to be a decent American instead of just a w'anker whipping up fear!" - Michael D. Higgins, President of Ireland

WTF is this dogpile, guys?

KJ has some weird ideas, but he's not a right-wing lunatic and he doesn't troll.

Stop ragging on him.

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davester

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Uncle Wig
Thing is, I'm not sure I want to replace Trouble as the resident right-wing wacko-a-mole. I've had at least a couple people pm me that I should just admit I'm a Limbaugh-listening, tea party guy. I guess it's fun to make-believe? kj.


It isn't that you're conservative; it's your tenuous grip on facts and your inability to use them to back up your arguments.

Truth be told, Trouble had exactly the same problem. Based on a sample size of 2, it appears that the most radical conservatives here are "fact-challenged".

To be fair, there are a few Lefties who shall remain nameless who post a lot of nonsense as well.

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Uncle Wig

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davester

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Uncle Wig
Thing is, I'm not sure I want to replace Trouble as the resident right-wing wacko-a-mole. I've had at least a couple people pm me that I should just admit I'm a Limbaugh-listening, tea party guy. I guess it's fun to make-believe? kj.


It isn't that you're conservative; it's your tenuous grip on facts and your inability to use them to back up your arguments.

Truth be told, Trouble had exactly the same problem. Based on a sample size of 2, it appears that the most radical conservatives here are "fact-challenged".

To be fair, there are a few Lefties who shall remain nameless who post a lot of nonsense as well.

Ya got me. I shamedfacedly admit that I was showing a bias.

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"So be proud to be a decent American instead of just a w'anker whipping up fear!" - Michael D. Higgins, President of Ireland

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$tevie
I think that the Yummy Pizza Company thing is bizarre. HOWEVER, this is not what you were talking about in the first place, kj, you were discussing some kind of short stories. If you want to talk about the weird heavy-handed union literature of the CFT, that would probably be better off in a new thread.

Sorry, I was not clear. I may never be able to get any of the actual worksheets I've seen, but it's easy to find examples of this kind of thing. The short stories I was referring to were very similar, although more in depth. However, they were only read, and there was no class participation, cards filled out, etc. I guess my real point was that there is indoctrination in schools. It's unavoidable (and necessary, I would argue), but it should be discussed in terms of who it benefits. Of course, it should benefit the kids foremost, not the teachers (or anyone else, for that matter). Whether the materials we've discussed primarily benefit the kids is something I think can be debated. I think union materials look suspicious given teachers' membership, etc. kj.

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Chakravartin
WTF is this dogpile, guys?

KJ has some weird ideas, but he's not a right-wing lunatic and he doesn't troll.

Stop ragging on him.

He posts things that aren't accurate, which is really not a problem as we all do from time to time, but when anyone expresses doubt, which is a reasonable form of participation on a political discussion forum, he turns around and accuses them of being part of a biased mob and only motivated by the need to bash someone, with a suggestion that their main motivation is to be a loyal member of said mob, which I think anyone would be within their right to perceive as a personal attack and below the belt; considering which, I think he's been treated mildly here.

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Lux Interior
kj wants kids to read books about animals that work 15 hours of casual overtime and don't take their vacation every year to help their generous CEOs buy a second summer home in the Hamptons.

I get this kind of a response from lux in most threads I post to. It's not sarcasm, it's a strawman. it misrepresents my argument (I actually don't have much of one, in this thread), and my general point of view. It also happens to be a very easy view to disagree with (and even I would, fwiw). Hence the strawman.

Black, I'm just being honest. Imagine trying to respond to everyone here. It would take me an hour. It does feel like a dogpile. If something like this was posted, and most agreed, it wouldn't likely be questioned like it is when most here disagree. Most of what I, cbelt, or anyone conservative posts here is picked apart by at least 10 people. It's a bit overwhelming.

>>It isn't that you're conservative; it's your tenuous grip on facts and your inability to use them to back up your arguments.

I would say I post my opinion, I often back it up with a link or two, and usually people ignore the facts (a lot the same as anyone here). I could give you two recent discussions where I've presented facts, and they've been ignored for no good reason. I'm not always good with facts, but I most certainly am not the only one here.

>>I don't get this "dirty" reference. Would you feel the same way about school instruction in how to be a capitalist? I can guarantee you that there is plenty of that going on:

The reason I say it's a little dirty is that, as I said, it's self-serving. Teachers have more at stake in people buying into the union idea, than they do in them buying into capitalism. Other examples would be the environmental focus you see a lot of now days, as well as the native american components, etc. They are certainly "imposition", but not for the benefit of teachers, specifically. kj.

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kj

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Lux Interior
kj wants kids to read books about animals that work 15 hours of casual overtime and don't take their vacation every year to help their generous CEOs buy a second summer home in the Hamptons.

I get this kind of a response from lux in most threads I post to. It's not sarcasm, it's a strawman. it misrepresents my argument (I actually don't have much of one, in this thread), and my general point of view. It also happens to be a very easy view to disagree with (and even I would, fwiw). Hence the strawman.

Black, I'm just being honest. Imagine trying to respond to everyone here. It would take me an hour. It does feel like a dogpile. If something like this was posted, and most agreed, it wouldn't likely be questioned like it is when most here disagree. Most of what I, cbelt, or anyone conservative posts here is picked apart by at least 10 people. It's a bit overwhelming.

>>It isn't that you're conservative; it's your tenuous grip on facts and your inability to use them to back up your arguments.

I would say I post my opinion, I often back it up with a link or two, and usually people ignore the facts (a lot the same as anyone here). I could give you two recent discussions where I've presented facts, and they've been ignored for no good reason. I'm not always good with facts, but I most certainly am not the only one here.

>>I don't get this "dirty" reference. Would you feel the same way about school instruction in how to be a capitalist? I can guarantee you that there is plenty of that going on:

The reason I say it's a little dirty is that, as I said, it's self-serving. Teachers have more at stake in people buying into the union idea, than they do in them buying into capitalism. Other examples would be the environmental focus you see a lot of now days, as well as the native american components, etc. They are certainly "imposition", but not for the benefit of teachers, specifically. kj.

Fair enough.

But I think it possible that you're blaming teachers for a perceived bias that could simply be explained by the self-serving textbook publishing union.

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Black

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Chakravartin
WTF is this dogpile, guys?

KJ has some weird ideas, but he's not a right-wing lunatic and he doesn't troll.

Stop ragging on him.

He posts things that aren't accurate, which is really not a problem as we all do from time to time, but when anyone expresses doubt, which is a reasonable form of participation on a political discussion forum, he turns around and accuses them of being part of a biased mob and only motivated by the need to bash someone, with a suggestion that their main motivation is to be a loyal member of said mob, which I think anyone would be within their right to perceive as a personal attack and below the belt; considering which, I think he's been treated mildly here.

When people wanted proof, I did not accuse them of being a mob. In fact, I didn't do that at all. I accused Wig and Lux of using strawman arguments, and I stand by that. And I complained of being told I listen to Limbaugh and Beck, and what happens? Davester comes along with a great example:

>>That you refer to this as "dirty" is mindblowing, and does suggest that you've been bent by the propaganda of Limbaugh, Beck, et al.

I've never purposely listened to either. Care to make that case Davester? Or don't you have to back up your statements with facts? kj.

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Black

Fair enough.

But I think it possible that you're blaming teachers for a perceived bias that could simply be explained by the self-serving textbook publishing union.

My attempt at not blaming the teachers was saying, "The teachers are cool." I don't know, but I'm guessing you're probably right. kj.

Whoa whoa whoa, ki, did you just express the idea that "unions" and "capitalism" are mutually exclusive? That is going to shock the heck out of all the people who lived in this capitalistic country for the last 200+ years since the first union was organized.

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$tevie
Whoa whoa whoa, ki, did you just express the idea that "unions" and "capitalism" are mutually exclusive? That is going to shock the heck out of all the people who lived in this capitalistic country for the last 200+ years since the first union was organized.

I don't think so. They're not mutually exclusive, but they're not synonymous either (you can love capitalism and hate unions). Some people consider unions a communist thing, but I don't (well one of my strawmen does, but not me). kj.

"He posts things that aren't accurate, which is really not a problem as we all do from time to time, but when anyone expresses doubt, which is a reasonable form of participation on a political discussion forum, he turns around and accuses them of being part of a biased mob and only motivated by the need to bash someone, with a suggestion that their main motivation is to be a loyal member of said mob, which I think anyone would be within their right to perceive as a personal attack and below the belt; considering which, I think he's been treated mildly here."

A prime example of more stuffing than a Christmas goose.

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Chakravartin
WTF is this dogpile, guys? Stop ragging on him.

Chak has got it right.
There is absolutely a click and a mob mentality thats like a virus clearly apparent in this thread. The pious and self righteous are not just here to help you, but hammer you if you disagree

It is amazing stuff not shocking, but actually a sad commentary on a free forum gone ostrich, with heads in the sand, who think the only way to define a persons opinion is via there own narrow minded interpretations, spin, mischaracterization and misquotes. *(:>*

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"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly
and applying the wrong remedies."Groucho Marx
"I got to that part and I knew there was going to be some weapons grade stupid to follow"Lux Interior
"When all the trees have been cut down, when all the animals have been hunted,
when all the waters are polluted, when all the air is unsafe to breathe, only then
will you discover you cannot eat money."
~ Cree Prophecy




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/19/2012 06:15AM by haikuman.

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kj

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$tevie
Whoa whoa whoa, ki, did you just express the idea that "unions" and "capitalism" are mutually exclusive? That is going to shock the heck out of all the people who lived in this capitalistic country for the last 200+ years since the first union was organized.

I don't think so. They're not mutually exclusive, but they're not synonymous either (you can love capitalism and hate unions). Some people consider unions a communist thing, but I don't (well one of my strawmen does, but not me). kj.

Unions and capitalism have been coexisting for centuries. Unionism has helped bring great progress to worker rights like maximum workweek, minimum wage, lifestyle and workplace conditions that would never had been possible had management had its way with work rules.

People performing manual labor and factory work would never have been able to join the middle class without unions. And that army of people joining the middle class fueled an amazing economic boom in the US from 1939-1969.

If the wealthy class wants to continue our recessionary economy it can continue to roll back wages and benefits to the working class, and it can continue to dismantle the regulatory system of the US government. Because while the wealthy class likes to say that a rising tide lifts all boats, it would be far happier if tide lifted only yachts.

Edit: before the righties go all black-or-white on me, I am aware that some unions have their problems. Some have become as bloated and corrupt as some of the corporations with which they negotiate. Many unions need reform. But most politicians seem to fear instead their political power, and try to limit their ability to organize. Right now, though, the unions' political power is weak compared to the corporations' thanks to Citizens United.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/19/2012 07:54AM by Gutenberg.

What she said.

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"Stop thinking about art works as objects, and start thinking about them as triggers for experiences." ~ Brian Eno

Someone comes on and says that they heard a teacher reading stories that were propaganda for unions, and when pressed for details they switch the topic to something distantly related, and we are "piling on" because we won't accept their unproven anecdote as a fact? That's an interesting skew to what happened.

I know we can be hard on the conservatives who post here, but honestly, when they insist on posting anecdotes as their "proof", that's what's going to happen. And for some odd reason it seems to be the conservatives who are addicted to this method of arguing.

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"Stop thinking about art works as objects, and start thinking about them as triggers for experiences." ~ Brian Eno



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/19/2012 10:25AM by $tevie.

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kj

>>I don't get this "dirty" reference. Would you feel the same way about school instruction in how to be a capitalist? I can guarantee you that there is plenty of that going on:

The reason I say it's a little dirty is that, as I said, it's self-serving. Teachers have more at stake in people buying into the union idea, than they do in them buying into capitalism. Other examples would be the environmental focus you see a lot of now days, as well as the native american components, etc. They are certainly "imposition", but not for the benefit of teachers, specifically. kj.

I think that some instructional materials about unions may be of the self serving kind - but that is not unique to unions. As a teacher I used to get packets of instructional materials from many types of corporations every year. If the materials were too heavily laced with self serving stuff I wouldn't use them. But unions are a part of the fabric of our economic system and I don't see anything wrong with teaching what they are about any more than teaching what any other significant aspect of our economic system is about. For example, the link I gave to the Microsociety outfit that provides a programs where students learn about running businesses and government could easily include a unit on unions and I don't see why that would be a problem - unless you don't think unions are things that children should be taught about. But then I think you need to justify why unions should not be taught about even though they are a significant part of our economic system. The lack of teaching about unions becomes a form of reverse indoctrination.

I think you have to be careful not to equate teaching about unions with union teachers being self serving. If a Christian social studies teacher teaches about Christianity that does not necessarily imply that they are being self serving (though I wouldn't put it past many conservatives to agree with that statement, but still be suspicious of a Muslim social studies teacher teaching about Islam). Teachers teach about all kinds of things that they believe in without it being the case that they are primarily motivated by being self serving. I'm not saying that teaching in a way that is self serving doesn't happen, but I don't think it is fair to make the assumption without other evidence of self servingness.

The right is afraid of indoctrination-by-teacher because that is the primary style that the right uses to propagate itself. What is the Rush Limbaugh program but three hours of carefully-selected news "curriculum" and measured commentary from an explicitly one-angle teacher?