We have this belief that if a kid has strong academic promise and aptitude, our society will get him through college. That's how this meritocracy thing is supposed to work.
The numbers tell a different story. Seeing this helps me understand why our country now has some of the lowest social mobility rates in the world.
Poor students with the highest test scores have the same chance of completing college as rich students with the lowest scores. (around 30%) And they complete college at less than half the rate of their wealthier peers.
this info is from 2005. Given the tuition increases and tightening of credit since then, I doubt the situation has improved.

[www.epi.org]
Economic Policy Institute

Given that a lot of kids collapse academically between 8th grade and college, I suspect that socio-economic status is more of an attributing aspect rather than the whole picture.

Wealthy students will never have the worries of lower income students. Knowing that whether or not you get an A in this class will have zero effect on your ability to come back next semester, or that you are going to get three squares a day without having to spend your spare time working, is going to free you up to take advantage of four more-or-less carefree years of college experiences, instead of being anxious all the time. Some poor students will rise above this, others will not. I don't really know how you can get around this. It may be that some lower income students will have to depend on an entrepreneurial spirit and not on a degree, and their offspring will be the ones who get the college degrees.

It might seem like an odd stat to use, but high scores on 8th grade standardized math tests are a good indicator of how well students will do in college prep high school courses, and how well prepared they will be for college. Yes if you're rich you are more likely to be in a strong high school that helps you get into college, whether you are a high scorer or not. That's part of the problem, we are picking the winners by income more than by talent.
My own school district did a study of how well kids did on 3rd grade aptitude tests v. the SAT 8 year later, and the scores tended to be parallel. IOW, that talent shows up early.
What this shows is that getting through college in the US is much more about your parents' income level than about your own talent. So claims that we are a meritocracy don't seem to hold up.

What I see here is a lot of missed opportunity. Those smart kids we are not helping get through college because their parents are not well off, what is lost? Who/what could they become? Hard to even contemplate. Worth addressing.

I'm not a believer that this country IS a meritocracy, hence my cynicism. The concept that it is a meritocracy is a lovely fairy tale. It is possible to raise yourself up, yes, but it is not the country's responsibility to guarantee that everyone ends up upper class.

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/18/2012 02:32PM by Black.

I agree with that. Except that we miss a great opportunity by making it so difficult to achieve if you aren't blessed with wealthy parents. Other countries don't do it that way, and I think they are better off as a result.

I think seeing that every smart kid who is willing to do the work has a shot at college would be a worthwhile investment.

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Grace62
I agree with that. Except that we miss a great opportunity by making it so difficult to achieve if you aren't blessed with wealthy parents. Other countries don't do it that way, and I think they are better off as a result.

I think seeing that every smart kid who is willing to do the work has a shot at college would be a worthwhile investment.

The widening gap in income between wealthy and "middle class" families, and the erosion of public scholarships makes potential and ability less and less important. It's all about $$.

My father died at 48, leaving my mother to raise three kids. Though I was a strong student, without a state sponsored scholarship, I would have been pumping gas instead of earning three degrees and having a professional career. I'm not suggesting that anybody "owed" me that help, but Grace's point hits home with me. If we don't invest in those needing help, we'll only see the social and income gap grow wider. And I don't think that's a good thing.

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Given that a lot of kids collapse academically between 8th grade and college,

cite plz

P.. Personal observation only. I generally agree with Grace's opinions here. Good minds wasted is a bad thing. Of course other countries resolve this with exams which guide the students to specific school levels. I'm not sure about that either.

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If we don't invest in those needing help, we'll only see the social and income gap grow wider.

And watch our society fall behind others that value education. Indeed it's bad for everyone. I've had this discussion with conservatives who are in absolute agreement. Of course, they were educated and took a broad view of social progress as a factor in their own success, they were not blindly adhering to a medieval playbook.

I'm obviously in the minority here. I think plumbing or hvac mechanics may be a better leg up financially than a liberal arts major, at least these days. Maybe I'm just bitter because I grew up without money and ended up not finishing college due to lack of funds and lack of access to counseling. I'm not convinced that everyone should go to college, so I guess that makes me a Frothy. People who do deserve a college education should have access to one, of course. I simply do not believe that social mobility is automatically conferred upon acquiring a degree.

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"Stop thinking about art works as objects, and start thinking about them as triggers for experiences." ~ Brian Eno

We've always known that the #1 predictor is the education level of the parent(s). Those folks are usually of higher income, but I think you'll find that those high test scores are most closely related to parent education level.

and, yes, this idea that we live in a meritocracy is a pipe dream.

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You go to college to get a degree, not an education. More to the point, if your parents can afford to buy you a place in college (or you are prepared to spend perhaps decades paying off your own fees) then you can get a degree. It doesn't really matter what the degree is in. It's just a signifier that you are one of society's winners and hence should be taken on board and anointed as a member of the in-crowd. This is why everyone feels that they need to go to college, to be part of the game.
College (university/higher education) should be a place to gather and harness knowledge about a given subject, ideally one that inspires the person undertaking the education. When it all comes down to money, the purpose of college (education generally) has more or less been defeated.

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$tevie
I'm obviously in the minority here. I think plumbing or hvac mechanics may be a better leg up financially than a liberal arts major, at least these days. Maybe I'm just bitter because I grew up without money and ended up not finishing college due to lack of funds and lack of access to counseling. I'm not convinced that everyone should go to college, so I guess that makes me a Frothy. People who do deserve a college education should have access to one, of course. I simply do not believe that social mobility is automatically conferred upon acquiring a degree.

Not disagreeing but it's kind of the same thing, no? We don't have anything resembling apprenticeship programs in this country, so you're still looking to at least a 2-year degree in order to be a reasonably competent HVAC or plumbing tech.

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Kiva
We've always known that the #1 predictor is the education level of the parent(s). Those folks are usually of higher income, but I think you'll find that those high test scores are most closely related to parent education level.

and, yes, this idea that we live in a meritocracy is a pipe dream.

This isn't about who is more likely to get high scores, it's about what happens, across the board, to all the kids who get the high scores. If you're a top scoring kid and you still only have a 30% chance of finishing college, that's pretty pathetic, and I think somewhat alarming.

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Grace62

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Kiva
We've always known that the #1 predictor is the education level of the parent(s). Those folks are usually of higher income, but I think you'll find that those high test scores are most closely related to parent education level.

and, yes, this idea that we live in a meritocracy is a pipe dream.

This isn't about who is more likely to get high scores, it's about what happens, across the board, to all the kids who get the high scores. If you're a top scoring kid and you still only have a 30% chance of finishing college, that's pretty pathetic, and I think somewhat alarming.

I hear ya...i was trying to say that we in education have always known it's the education level of the parent that is most predictive of future success...scores or otherwise. Kind of the same thing or, at least, parallel facts...

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There are all kinds of things that get in the way of smart kids getting through college; incarceration, pregnancy, substance abuse. Do we know for sure that money is the obstacle? I'm sure it is financial in a lot of cases, just a point.

A quibble, but I'm (not ;-) doing a paper on a similar topic right now, and I think the proper word would be democracy, rather than meritocracy. From what I'm reading meritocracy would be more associated with the functionalist crowd, eugenics, society with rigid scientifically determined classes, etc. Democracy in education is more of a Classical Liberal idea that "everyone should have an equal opportunity". I think that's what education in the U.S. is supposed to be. And no, it isn't and has never been that. On the other hand, I think an awful lot of the world is way more restrictive than we are in who gets an opportunity to go to school, and who doesn't. Where else in the world have they had something like FAPE for as long as we have? In all fairness though, it's a really complicated issue that just money isn't going to solve. It will cost money though.

I like Stevie's point, in that I get the definite impression in Norway different jobs don't confer status the way they do here. One person in our family is a cable tv installer, and another a radiologist, and they don't seem to be considered in a different social class. It's nice. kj.

>>I get the definite impression in Norway different jobs don't confer status the way they do here.

I don't think that Norway has anywhere near the income disparity that we do here in the US.

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Black
We don't have anything resembling apprenticeship programs in this country, so you're still looking to at least a 2-year degree in order to be a reasonably competent HVAC or plumbing tech.

... Actually we do.. Sometimes. Most trade unions have some sort of apprentice program, as do many large companies. My company, for example, has apprentice programs for Tool & Die Machinists, Millwrights, and Electricians. We require schooling, pay tuition at local trade schools / community colleges based on grades (A's get 100% reimbursed, etc..), and provide a trade recognized 'Journeyman' status.

One of the side effects of the New GI Bill and easy to obtain Federally guaranteed Student Loans has been the creation of a number of private "universities" and "trade schools" whose primary purpose is to separate students from their money, rather than provide a quality education. Caveat Emptor.

>>My company, for example

once again, your employer is highly unusual.

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$tevie
I'm obviously in the minority here. I think plumbing or hvac mechanics may be a better leg up financially than a liberal arts major, at least these days. Maybe I'm just bitter because I grew up without money and ended up not finishing college due to lack of funds and lack of access to counseling. I'm not convinced that everyone should go to college, so I guess that makes me a Frothy. People who do deserve a college education should have access to one, of course. I simply do not believe that social mobility is automatically conferred upon acquiring a degree.

Absolutely correct, especially today. I've argued with friends that a BA/BS is basically the equivalent of a high school degree of thirty or forty years ago. Although I'm not that old to personally recall those times, I think there was a period when college and university undergraduate degrees really did educate with critical thinking skills and increased knowledge. I'm not so sure that is the case nowadays; I think four years of post-secondary is just preparing one for a better shot at being an Admin Asst. (not that there's anything wrong with that).

If I really wished for my sons to make a lot of money, I would send them off to plumbing school, since all the plumbers I know make twice my salary after my 20 years in the workforce.

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mattkime
>>I get the definite impression in Norway different jobs don't confer status the way they do here.

I don't think that Norway has anywhere near the income disparity that we do here in the US.

I agree they probably don't. But, there's more to it than that (teachers have more status than plumbers, but may make less money). I've never known people to NOT be able to look down on each other. If it's not making more money than someone else, it'll be something else. I'm not sure why it would be different in Norway. kj.

I think they have a very homogeneous culture which helps. As far as they're concerned, they're all in it together.

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mattkime
I think they have a very homogeneous culture which helps. As far as they're concerned, they're all in it together.

I'm not at all familiar with the country, but I tend to think that comment is spot on. I suspect it's much more about cultural values than income disparity.

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Pops

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mattkime
I think they have a very homogeneous culture which helps. As far as they're concerned, they're all in it together.

I'm not at all familiar with the country, but I tend to think that comment is spot on. I suspect it's much more about cultural values than income disparity.

Yeah, that's largely true, although quickly changing. kj.

So we all agree that if we can find a way to put us all in it together, we'd be better for it?

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RgrF
So we all agree that if we can find a way to put us all in it together, we'd be better for it?

Sounds like socialism to me.

Taxed Enuf Already!

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RgrF
So we all agree that if we can find a way to put us all in it together, we'd be better for it?

Snob!

Wow, what a mythical, magical place this Norway must be.

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billb
Wow, what a mythical, magical place this Norway must be.

I know you're being sarcastic, but no, it really isn't. Every time we visit, we are alarmed to find they seem to be trying hard to be more like us here in the U.S. Last time we were there we saw lines of SUVs (many american made) pulling campers to the woods. Sacrilege to older Norwegians. They used to have a simple life that I thought was attractive, but not so much anymore. I think it's mostly due to oil money. kj.

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billb
Wow, what a mythical, magical place this Norway must be.

You're thinking of Finland.

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/21/2012 09:18AM by Sam3.

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kj

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billb
Wow, what a mythical, magical place this Norway must be.

I know you're being sarcastic, but no, it really isn't. Every time we visit, we are alarmed to find they seem to be trying hard to be more like us here in the U.S. Last time we were there we saw lines of SUVs (many american made) pulling campers to the woods. Sacrilege to older Norwegians. They used to have a simple life that I thought was attractive, but not so much anymore. I think it's mostly due to oil money. kj.

I have cousins in Geiranger and AAlesund . Oil money has absolutely changed Norway.
But people are people with biases and prejudices no matter where you go in the world. If you're lucky you find those that have distanced themselves from them. They are everywhere, too.

Yeah, mostly true. kj.

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billb

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kj

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billb
Wow, what a mythical, magical place this Norway must be.

I know you're being sarcastic, but no, it really isn't. Every time we visit, we are alarmed to find they seem to be trying hard to be more like us here in the U.S. Last time we were there we saw lines of SUVs (many american made) pulling campers to the woods. Sacrilege to older Norwegians. They used to have a simple life that I thought was attractive, but not so much anymore. I think it's mostly due to oil money. kj.

I have cousins in Geiranger and AAlesund . Oil money has absolutely changed Norway.
But people are people with biases and prejudices no matter where you go in the world. If you're lucky you find those that have distanced themselves from them. They are everywhere, too.