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Um, about that probable cause thing
Posted by: Grace62
Date: March 28, 2012 09:20AM
So the police DID think there was good reason to arrest George Zimmerman on the night he shot Trayvon, and the investigator on the scene DID doubt his version of what happened. Police asked for an arrest warrant and charges and classified the case as homicide/negligent manslaughter, but the State's attorney decided to wait, although they had not sent a prosecutor to the scene.

Why was the police chief then going around saying they had no probable cause to make an arrest?


[www.miamiherald.com]

EDIT: Zimmerman is the son of a retired judge. Maybe the state's attorney knew that but not the police?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/28/2012 09:24AM by Grace62.
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Re: Um, about that probable cause thing
Posted by: cbelt3
Date: March 28, 2012 09:55AM
I do NOT understand why there was not an immediate arrest.

Dead unarmed kid. Armed shooter. Cops should have been able to toss him in back of a cruiser and drive him to the station. They need a warrant in this case ? Weird, man. Weird.

Try mouthing off to a cop during a traffic ticket in Florida. I doubt very much they'll wait for a warrant before tagging and bagging your butt.
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Re: Um, about that probable cause thing
Posted by: mattkime
Date: March 28, 2012 09:59AM
In NYC traffic deaths have been getting more attention, largely because of the lack of police attention. It usually boils down to...

- politics
- the police didn't want to so they don't have to


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Re: Um, about that probable cause thing
Posted by: katkennel
Date: March 28, 2012 10:07AM
White Hispanic $1,000.000 bounty.
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Re: Um, about that probable cause thing
Posted by: Grace62
Date: March 28, 2012 10:09AM
I think the police always have to get a warrant to arrest and charge, right?

You would hope this isn't the case, but it starts to look as though George Zimmerman can do pretty much anything and not get charged with a crime. He has prior arrests for violence towards an officer, for resisting arrest without violence, and for domestic violence against a former girlfriend. Violence towards an officer would be felony charge.
Three arrests, no charges.

How many people can attack a police officer and not be charged? Daddy's a retired judge? That's very helpful, isn't it?


“He would be the last to discriminate for any reason whatsoever. The media portrayal of George as a racist could not be further from the truth. At no time did George follow or confront Mr. Martin. When the true details of the event became public, and I hope that will be soon, everyone should be outraged by the treatment of George Zimmerman in the media,” wrote Robert Zimmerman. (before the 911 tapes were released - oops Daddy.)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/28/2012 10:11AM by Grace62.
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Re: Um, about that probable cause thing
Posted by: billb
Date: March 28, 2012 10:13AM
Quote
katkennel
White Hispanic $1,000.000 bounty.
You dropped a zero.
[www.independent.co.uk]
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Re: Um, about that probable cause thing
Posted by: Gutenberg
Date: March 28, 2012 10:20AM
Apparently dear old Dad has gotten him out of trouble before. He has three expunged arrests, two of them for resisting arrest.

[www.v103.com]
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Re: Um, about that probable cause thing
Posted by: cbelt3
Date: March 28, 2012 10:20AM
That "Bounty" is less than helpful. Idiots. You can't scream about a miscarriage of justice and then make a public proclamation that is patently illegal.

Fortunately more intelligent voices are raised:

"His comments were denounced by mainstream civil rights campaigners. Jesse Jackson, who preached at a Baptist church in Sanford yesterday, called it a "diversion," telling reporters: "I think disciplined, persistent, non-violent action works." The incident nonetheless highlights the increasingly polarising nature of the controversy surrounding Trayvon's death."
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Re: Um, about that probable cause thing
Posted by: August West
Date: March 28, 2012 10:28AM
Wow, I didn't think the killing of a child could get worse. It is.
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Re: Um, about that probable cause thing
Posted by: michaelb
Date: March 28, 2012 10:36AM
Quote
Grace62
I think the police always have to get a warrant to arrest and charge, right?

this would be a question of state law, but I would guess the answer is no. that the police would have authority to arrest if they had probable cause that a crime was committed (some states will limit this to certain crimes listed by law). For felonies like this, I would be very surprised if the police couldn't arrest.
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Re: Um, about that probable cause thing
Posted by: billb
Date: March 28, 2012 10:41AM
Quote
Grace62


Why was the police chief then going around saying they had no probable cause to make an arrest?


Because the State's Attorney's Office wants convictions and there wasn't enough non-conflicting evidence to assure it ?
That's usually how it works.

Maybe they should waterboard the eye witness they have and get him to change his story.
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Re: Um, about that probable cause thing
Posted by: billb
Date: March 28, 2012 10:50AM
Quote
Grace62
I think the police always have to get a warrant to arrest and charge, right?

You would hope this isn't the case, but it starts to look as though George Zimmerman can do pretty much anything and not get charged with a crime. He has prior arrests for violence towards an officer, for resisting arrest without violence, and for domestic violence against a former girlfriend. Violence towards an officer would be felony charge.
Three arrests, no charges.

He was charged.
Multiple times. Charges have been reduced and or dropped. There can be a myriad of reasons why and how. Some of the charges could even have been bogus. Beyond speculation and forced agendas we'll likely never know. Cleared records are supposed to stay cleared.

I think you mean convicted.
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Re: Um, about that probable cause thing
Posted by: Grace62
Date: March 28, 2012 10:51AM
Quote
billb
Quote
Grace62


Why was the police chief then going around saying they had no probable cause to make an arrest?


Because the State's Attorney's Office wants convictions and there wasn't enough non-conflicting evidence to assure it ?
That's usually how it works.

Maybe they should waterboard the eye witness they have and get him to change his story.


The police ignored witnesses whose accounts disagreed with Zimmerman. The investigator on the scene suspected Zimmerman was lying, and that was AFTER he'd talked with witnesses. This is why police asked for a warrant and charges.

Before the protest and the public release of the 911 tapes, the state's attorney was planning to do nothing. No arrest, no charges, no grand jury.
It's not that they want convictions, in this case it's that they didn't want to charge this guy.
Trayvon's parents deserve to know why.
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Re: Um, about that probable cause thing
Posted by: Grace62
Date: March 28, 2012 10:54AM
Quote
michaelb
Quote
Grace62
I think the police always have to get a warrant to arrest and charge, right?

this would be a question of state law, but I would guess the answer is no. that the police would have authority to arrest if they had probable cause that a crime was committed (some states will limit this to certain crimes listed by law). For felonies like this, I would be very surprised if the police couldn't arrest.

You're right Michael, the police can arrest without a warrant if they arrive at a crime scene and can gather enough evidence for probable cause. But they wanted to file charges, so I assume that is the reason they asked the state's attorney for the warrant.
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Re: Um, about that probable cause thing
Posted by: mattkime
Date: March 28, 2012 11:01AM
and there are always enough billb types to let the crooked cops off the hook.
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Re: Um, about that probable cause thing
Posted by: August West
Date: March 28, 2012 11:05AM
billb's insight is always valuable when trying to understand the miscarriage of justice.
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Re: Um, about that probable cause thing
Posted by: michaelb
Date: March 28, 2012 11:06AM
I am confused about what happened and haven't paid that much attention to the details. the police could and should have arrested him and brought him in and interrogated him. In this state at least, he would have been lodged to the next avail court day. At that point it is up to the State's Attorney if they want to "bring charges". Some states might require a formal process, but for the most part, that is a discretion decision by the SA.

I don't think it would be improper for the SA to decline to file charges that next day under the circumstances here. This does seem like the sort of case in which presenting the info to a grand jury could make sense. that is often the practice in cases involving plausible allegations of self defense. I thought the newly appointed special prosecutor was proceeding with a grand jury. the GJ process, whether required or not, now it works, again is going to vary state by state, but every state has some mechanism like that still probably, clearly Fla does.
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Re: Um, about that probable cause thing
Posted by: Grace62
Date: March 28, 2012 11:17AM
Quote
michaelb
I am confused about what happened and haven't paid that much attention to the details. the police could and should have arrested him and brought him in and interrogated him. In this state at least, he would have been lodged to the next avail court day. At that point it is up to the State's Attorney if they want to "bring charges". Some states might require a formal process, but for the most part, that is a discretion decision by the SA.

I don't think it would be improper for the SA to decline to file charges that next day under the circumstances here. This does seem like the sort of case in which presenting the info to a grand jury could make sense. that is often the practice in cases involving plausible allegations of self defense. I thought the newly appointed special prosecutor was proceeding with a grand jury. the GJ process, whether required or not, now it works, again is going to vary state by state, but every state has some mechanism like that still probably, clearly Fla does.



I don't think the new prosecutor has called for a grand jury yet.

The problem with the police not arresting Zimmerman seems to revolve around this stupid "stand your ground" law, which prohibits any prosecution or arrest if the person has a claim of self defense and the police buy it. The only exemption is if the victim is a cop.

However, there are now so many questions about how the police and prosecutors handled this that they pretty much had to reset and start over.

Also tragic is the fact that Trayvon, in death, is getting the rape victim treatment.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/28/2012 11:18AM by Grace62.
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Re: Um, about that probable cause thing
Posted by: Grace62
Date: March 28, 2012 11:22AM
Quote
billb
Quote
Grace62
I think the police always have to get a warrant to arrest and charge, right?

You would hope this isn't the case, but it starts to look as though George Zimmerman can do pretty much anything and not get charged with a crime. He has prior arrests for violence towards an officer, for resisting arrest without violence, and for domestic violence against a former girlfriend. Violence towards an officer would be felony charge.
Three arrests, no charges.

He was charged.
Multiple times. Charges have been reduced and or dropped. There can be a myriad of reasons why and how. Some of the charges could even have been bogus. Beyond speculation and forced agendas we'll likely never know. Cleared records are supposed to stay cleared.

I think you mean convicted.

"As previously reported, Robert Zimmerman has been revealed as a retired magistrate judge and his wife, Gladys Zimmerman, a former court clerk.

The occupations of Zimmerman’s parents are causing many to wonder whether he received preferential treatment in 2005 when he was arrested for resisting an officer with violence and battery on a law enforcement officer.

The charge was later reduced to resisting an officer without violence and dismissed when he entered an alcohol education program.

Zimmerman was also accused of domestic violence by his ex-fiancee in 2005, who filed a restraining order against him."

You're right bill, he was charged.

Was he tested for alcohol the night he shot Trayvon? that seemed to be an issue when he attacked the police officer.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/28/2012 11:28AM by Grace62.
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Re: Um, about that probable cause thing
Posted by: Acer
Date: March 28, 2012 11:25AM
Ridiculous law. Sure, "stand your ground" can be codified as a defense if you want, but as a defense in court, not a free pass from all further scrutiny. Law and Order Republicans my foot.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/28/2012 11:25AM by Acer.
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Re: Um, about that probable cause thing
Posted by: $tevie
Date: March 28, 2012 11:29AM
Quote
katkennel
White Hispanic $1,000.000 bounty.

The New Black Panther Party is a group of racist militant idiots whom the media keeps confusing with the actual Black Panther Party. The actual Black Panther Party has disavowed the New Black Panther Party.

Quote

There Is No New Black Panther Party: An Open Letter From the Dr. Huey P. Newton Foundation
In response from numerous requests from individual's seeking information on the "New Black Panthers," the Dr. Huey P. Newton Foundation issues this public statement to correct the distorted record being made in the media by a small band of African Americans calling themselves the New Black Panthers. As guardian of the true history of the Black Panther Party, the Foundation, which includes former leading members of the Party, denounces this group's exploitation of the Party's name and history. Failing to find its own legitimacy in the black community, this band would graft the Party's name upon itself, which we condemn.
[www.blackpanther.org]


"Stop thinking about art works as objects, and start thinking about them as triggers for experiences." ~ Brian Eno
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Re: Um, about that probable cause thing
Posted by: JoeH
Date: March 28, 2012 11:33AM
Quote
billb
Quote
katkennel
White Hispanic $1,000.000 bounty.
You dropped a zero.
[www.independent.co.uk]

Just moved a decimal point to make it look like a million. Beginning to wonder who this sock puppet belongs to, the style is familiar.
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Re: Um, about that probable cause thing
Posted by: billb
Date: March 28, 2012 12:48PM
Quote
Grace62
Quote
michaelb
I am confused about what happened and haven't paid that much attention to the details. the police could and should have arrested him and brought him in and interrogated him. In this state at least, he would have been lodged to the next avail court day. At that point it is up to the State's Attorney if they want to "bring charges". Some states might require a formal process, but for the most part, that is a discretion decision by the SA.

I don't think it would be improper for the SA to decline to file charges that next day under the circumstances here. This does seem like the sort of case in which presenting the info to a grand jury could make sense. that is often the practice in cases involving plausible allegations of self defense. I thought the newly appointed special prosecutor was proceeding with a grand jury. the GJ process, whether required or not, now it works, again is going to vary state by state, but every state has some mechanism like that still probably, clearly Fla does.



I don't think the new prosecutor has called for a grand jury yet.

Convenes April 10
The problem with the police not arresting Zimmerman seems to revolve around this stupid "stand your ground" law, which prohibits any prosecution or arrest if the person has a claim of self defense and the police buy it. The only exemption is if the victim is a cop.

However, there are now so many questions about how the police and prosecutors handled this that they pretty much had to reset and start over.

Also tragic is the fact that Trayvon, in death, is getting the rape victim treatment.


I'm also not convinced all the private police business information that normally we wouldn't be privy to hasn't been conveniently leaked out yet either.

So don't unknot the knickers quite yet, there may still be plenty of new info to distort twist and wrap personal agendas with.

:-)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/28/2012 01:00PM by billb.
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Re: Um, about that probable cause thing
Posted by: haikuman
Date: March 28, 2012 01:30PM
Funny how your perfect insights would blame billb without acknowledging
that the manifestation of our dysfunctional society is what we have become, via, over wrought
paranoia, racism, blamism and self righteous back room quaterbacks separating themselves
from the fray. We have built a rather sic world. These ideas may be germane and on point.

There is a rather obvious decomposition in our society that is beyond left, right and religion.
Getting better at being a person is a lifetime project, but not likely a forum or world mandate.

Perhaps humans can mold the future by manifesting their beliefs in their daily routine.
Elevating ones self by putting others down is false gold me thinks and it is not being part
of the solution.

Why not turn the corner . . .

There is a fine line between a rut and a groove . . .
Rudie


“Stay Hungry Stay Foolish"
"There are only two mantras yummm and yuk "
"There is a fine line between a rut and a groove"
"The quality of Congress is not strained. It droppeth like a fetid cow patty from a bovine cloaca." cbelt
"I got to that part and I knew there was going to be some weapons grade stupid to follow"Lux Interior
"When all the trees have been cut down, when all the animals have been hunted,
when all the waters are polluted, when all the air is unsafe to breathe, only then
will you discover you cannot eat money."
~ Cree Prophecy




Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 03/28/2012 01:54PM by haikuman.
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Re: Um, about that probable cause thing
Posted by: August West
Date: March 28, 2012 02:00PM
You really need to take your own advice about that rut and groove thing.
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Re: Um, about that probable cause thing
Posted by: haikuman
Date: March 28, 2012 02:04PM
Quote
August West
You really need to take your own advice about that rut and groove thing.

Of course I understand you are part of the insightful privileged born in the truth *(:>*
And I really love your sense of humor


“Stay Hungry Stay Foolish"
"There are only two mantras yummm and yuk "
"There is a fine line between a rut and a groove"
"The quality of Congress is not strained. It droppeth like a fetid cow patty from a bovine cloaca." cbelt
"I got to that part and I knew there was going to be some weapons grade stupid to follow"Lux Interior
"When all the trees have been cut down, when all the animals have been hunted,
when all the waters are polluted, when all the air is unsafe to breathe, only then
will you discover you cannot eat money."
~ Cree Prophecy




Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/28/2012 02:08PM by haikuman.
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Re: Um, about that probable cause thing
Posted by: Bill in NC
Date: March 28, 2012 03:19PM
"Florida Statute 776.032 expressly prohibits police from arresting someone who had a reasonable fear of imminent death or great bodily harm."

So it's best to wait for a grand jury indictment.

BUT the 'stand your ground' law is designed to provide speedy relief (judge can toss the case before any trial)
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Re: Um, about that probable cause thing
Posted by: decay
Date: March 28, 2012 03:54PM
wow.

so any fistfight you're losing badly at allows you to KILL your opponent.

that's f**ked up.




[www.giyf.com]
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Re: Um, about that probable cause thing
Posted by: August West
Date: March 28, 2012 04:41PM
Quote

Florida Statute 776.032 expressly prohibits police from arresting someone who had a reasonable fear of imminent death or great bodily harm.

It's not quite that simple.
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Re: Um, about that probable cause thing
Posted by: Grace62
Date: March 28, 2012 05:19PM
Quote
billb




Quote
Grace
I don't think the new prosecutor has called for a grand jury yet.

Convenes April 10
The problem with the police not arresting Zimmerman seems to revolve around this stupid "stand your ground" law, which prohibits any prosecution or arrest if the person has a claim of self defense and the police buy it. The only exemption is if the victim is a cop.

However, there are now so many questions about how the police and prosecutors handled this that they pretty much had to reset and start over.

Also tragic is the fact that Trayvon, in death, is getting the rape victim treatment.

[/quote]

Bill
April 10 was the date that the old prosecutor (Seminole County ) had set. That was cancelled when the new prosecutor took over.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/28/2012 05:20PM by Grace62.
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Re: Um, about that probable cause thing
Posted by: billb
Date: March 28, 2012 07:57PM
Quote
Grace62
Quote
billb




Quote
Grace
I don't think the new prosecutor has called for a grand jury yet.

Convenes April 10
The problem with the police not arresting Zimmerman seems to revolve around this stupid "stand your ground" law, which prohibits any prosecution or arrest if the person has a claim of self defense and the police buy it. The only exemption is if the victim is a cop.

However, there are now so many questions about how the police and prosecutors handled this that they pretty much had to reset and start over.

Also tragic is the fact that Trayvon, in death, is getting the rape victim treatment.

Bill
April 10 was the date that the old prosecutor (Seminole County ) had set. That was cancelled when the new prosecutor took over.[/quote]

That's the date atributed to the new replacement or temporary prosecutor in an article I read.
It most certainly could be wrong. It was a news outlet article, not from any official court documentation.
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Re: Um, about that probable cause thing
Posted by: billb
Date: March 28, 2012 08:47PM
Quote
decay
wow.

so any fistfight you're losing badly at allows you to KILL your opponent.

that's f**ked up.
Yeah, it is.
That supposedly wasn't exact intention of the law but it certainly appears one can interpret that way.
If that doesn't get modified or constrained PDQ then it's even more f##ked up.


I still haven't read a really good reason why procedurally they didn't hold him either with or without an arrest for 24 or 73 hours , whatever Florida Law allows and then released. I've read a lot of reasons, many couched in agendas , but not a good reason.
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Re: Um, about that probable cause thing
Posted by: Grace62
Date: March 28, 2012 08:49PM
This article clears up the question about the grand jury. There will not be one.
[www.miamiherald.com]


JACKSONVILLE -- The prosecutor at the center of the national firestorm over whether the man who killed Trayvon Martin should be charged in his death says she’s not likely to need a grand jury to make the decision for her.

More probable, she said, is that she’ll be the one to decide.

“I always lean towards moving forward without needing the grand jury in a case like this,
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Re: Um, about that probable cause thing
Posted by: katkennel
Date: March 29, 2012 12:00AM
Liberals are shopping for rope for Zimmerman’s neck tie party.
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Re: Um, about that probable cause thing
Posted by: RgrF
Date: March 29, 2012 12:21AM
Welcome back Shaky. Time to stop hiding.
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Re: Um, about that probable cause thing
Posted by: Lux Interior
Date: March 29, 2012 02:26AM
Quote
katkennel
Liberals are shopping for rope for Zimmerman’s neck tie party.

Meanwhile, conservatives are in a bind. Zimmerman is hispanic, so he's likely an illegal immigrant. But Martin is black, so he must be a gang thug (probably dropped his nine down the sewer in the struggle).

I'm trying to out-stupid stupid. Which is difficult. And stupid.
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Re: Um, about that probable cause thing
Posted by: katkennel
Date: March 29, 2012 05:28PM
Quote
$tevie
Quote
katkennel
White Hispanic $1,000.000 bounty.

The New Black Panther Party is a group of racist militant idiots whom the media keeps confusing with the actual Black Panther Party. The actual Black Panther Party has disavowed the New Black Panther Party.

Quote

There Is No New Black Panther Party: An Open Letter From the Dr. Huey P. Newton Foundation
In response from numerous requests from individual's seeking information on the "New Black Panthers," the Dr. Huey P. Newton Foundation issues this public statement to correct the distorted record being made in the media by a small band of African Americans calling themselves the New Black Panthers. As guardian of the true history of the Black Panther Party, the Foundation, which includes former leading members of the Party, denounces this group's exploitation of the Party's name and history. Failing to find its own legitimacy in the black community, this band would graft the Party's name upon itself, which we condemn.
[www.blackpanther.org]

And in other news, The Hell's Angels have opened an orphanage in East Oakland, Ca.
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Re: Um, about that probable cause thing
Posted by: decay
Date: March 29, 2012 11:00PM
old Coke, New Coke.




[www.giyf.com]
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