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Zimmerman's bloody head
Posted by: hal
Date: April 20, 2012 11:59AM
Well, we finally have a pic of the bloody head. Gotta say, this changes things a good deal. IMO, no matter what is found, Zimmerman STILL went out and created a confrontation that resulted in the death of a young kid. But if this kid did actually attack him, murder charges seems like too much.

I hope we all find out what really happened. AND I hope that this doesn't end up turning into validation of that idiotic Stand Your Ground law.

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Re: Zimmerman's bloody head
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: April 20, 2012 12:08PM
The evidence leaks in this case (assuming this photo is real) are amazing. Never seen anything quite like it.

Was that blood tested and confirmed as belonging to Zimmerman? Paramedics already said they cleaned up his minor injuries at the scene, with basic first aid. No trip to the hospital after assessments from them, the police, his Dad, and himself.

Given the issues around head injuries, does that make any sense?

This was all presumably thoroughly reviewed by the special prosecutor, who has the full evidence, the public does not.
Where are these leaks coming from, since the prosecutor and judge both ordered all evidence sealed?
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Re: Zimmerman's bloody head
Posted by: cbelt3
Date: April 20, 2012 12:08PM
How does it change anything ?

A young man, stalked and threatened by an armed man, might actually STAND HIS GROUND ?
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Re: Zimmerman's bloody head
Posted by: $tevie
Date: April 20, 2012 12:34PM
Quote
cbelt3
A young man, stalked and threatened by an armed man, might actually STAND HIS GROUND ?

That's entirely possible. This is why we need a trial and hopefully the truth will be figured out.

Now that Zimmerman has been arrested, which was the goal of all the publicity, I feel like these evidence leaks are inappropriate. The media obviously doesn't want to lose all those clicks, however, so I don't imagine the leaks will stop.


"Stop thinking about art works as objects, and start thinking about them as triggers for experiences." ~ Brian Eno
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Re: Zimmerman's bloody head
Posted by: Black
Date: April 20, 2012 12:36PM
Quote
cbelt3
How does it change anything ?

A young man, stalked and threatened by an armed man, might actually STAND HIS GROUND ?
I would think it would be extremely important in making a judgment as to the veracity of the rest of Zimmerman's account of what occurred.


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Re: Zimmerman's bloody head
Posted by: Black
Date: April 20, 2012 12:37PM
Quote
Lemon Drop
The evidence leaks in this case (assuming this photo is real) are amazing. Never seen anything quite like it.

Well, if the public has access to =all= the evidence, nobody can claim the jury was tainted, right?
Perhaps Florida, with its penchant for unusual legislation, can get a bill passed in time to authorize this case to be tried by a jury of thousands of people voting from home over the internet?


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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/20/2012 12:39PM by Black.
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Re: Zimmerman's bloody head
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: April 20, 2012 12:47PM
The public WILL have access during the trial or earlier during the self-defense hearing, which is bound to come.

Florida has "sunshine laws" that let more official documents be released than just about any state. But the special prosecutor ordered all evidence and records sealed in this case, and the judge did the same at the probable cause hearing, based on a request from Z's attorney.
So whoever released this photo to ABC could be in trouble.

Given that it's ABC, not surprising. They paid $200K for photos of Casey Anthony prior to that trial. They said they wouldn't do it again, but I doubt they got this photo for free.
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Re: Zimmerman's bloody head
Posted by: billb
Date: April 20, 2012 12:54PM
Pic was taken by a first responder (according to ABC).
That can be a neighbor, cop , fire dept. or paramedic.
They never claimed it was "leaked evidence" did they ?

That photo could have been for sale for quite a while.
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Re: Zimmerman's bloody head
Posted by: JoeH
Date: April 20, 2012 01:57PM
Assuming the photo is valid, for scalp lacerations the amount of blood is fairly small. Does not point to particularly extensive injuries by itself. Will have to wait on more information coming out. But, given that Zimmerman created the confrontation in the first place, charges of at least manslaughter appear applicable. Conviction is another thing, that happens in court.
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Re: Zimmerman's bloody head
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: April 20, 2012 01:58PM
How is that photo not evidence? Regardless of who took it, it's evidence.
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Re: Zimmerman's bloody head
Posted by: kanesa
Date: April 20, 2012 02:12PM
The wounds look small and superficial. Head wounds can bleed a great deal but this isn't a lot of blood. It appears to have stopped bleeding. It's a sensationalistic photo. If I had someone stalking me, I might have done more damage if the guy approached me.
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Re: Zimmerman's bloody head
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: April 20, 2012 02:33PM
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Re: Zimmerman's bloody head
Posted by: Bill in NC
Date: April 20, 2012 02:43PM
I'm still puzzled as to why people talk about 'stalking'?

Nothing stops me from approaching anyone here in my private community on the common areas.

No tresspassing and no solicting signs are prominently posted at the entrance, yet I've still had to approach several commercial solicitors and ask they leave.

I doubt I could legally prohibit a neighbor from following me around the common area without obtaining a restraining order.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/20/2012 02:44PM by Bill in NC.
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Re: Zimmerman's bloody head
Posted by: btfc
Date: April 20, 2012 02:47PM
Questions like who took it, when, who the person in the photo actually is, and what has happened to it since would have to be answered before a court would accept that as evidence.
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Re: Zimmerman's bloody head
Posted by: JPK
Date: April 20, 2012 02:54PM
How long before Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton claims this is a poor photoshop job perpetrated by Fox news and George Bush.

None of us know what happened. Unfortunately, Zimmerman is the only one left who does. Some of you may believe him, most of you will not.

I didn't know the Martin boy and I don't know Zimmerman. Everything we all know to this point has been filtered spun and fed from both sides of the media.

All I really know is that it must be really awful losing a son, and it must be really awful being in jail after hiding out because people wanted to lynch you.

JPK
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Re: Zimmerman's bloody head
Posted by: decay
Date: April 20, 2012 03:03PM
that's SO metal!

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Re: Zimmerman's bloody head
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: April 20, 2012 03:06PM
"...
Zimmerman was not admitted to a hospital or given stitches the night of the incident.

The person who took the photograph of a bloodied Zimmerman, asking not to be identified, told ABC News exclusively that they did not see the scuffle that night, but did hear it. The person recalled seeing Martin's prostrate body on the wet grass and said the gunpowder burns on Martin's gray hoodie were clearly visible.

The photographer said that after the shooting, Zimmerman asked the photographer to call his wife. When the photographer asked him what to say, Zimmerman blurted out, "Man, just tell her I shot someone."

Investigators have seen the photo. "
[abcnews.go.com]

OK then, it appears this person (it does sound like a neighbor witness) did the right thing and gave this photo to the police. They no doubt have their own photos of same. So the special prosecutor would have obviously considered that before charging murder 2. ABC says they verified that the photo was legit.
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Re: Zimmerman's bloody head
Posted by: Pam
Date: April 20, 2012 04:04PM
No worse than a scraped knee. Actually better than a scraped knee. Given he has no hair for protection and as has already been pointed out the head bleeds a lot and there was no treatment for deep cuts or concussion.

I think this is going to come down on two things; can someone provoke a confrontation and then use lethal force and was his life really being threatened (as opposed to possibly getting his ass kicked). It bothers me that guns can be too easily pulled when you're simply losing a fight and not because your life is really in danger.
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Re: Zimmerman's bloody head
Posted by: Spock
Date: April 20, 2012 04:19PM
Quote
Pam

I think this is going to come down on two things; can someone provoke a confrontation and then use lethal force and was his life really being threatened (as opposed to possibly getting his ass kicked).

No, its doesn't matter if "his life is really being threatened", what matters under the Florida law is if "he thinks his life is really being threatened".





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Fox News: Best comedy channel that isn't a comedy channel.
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Re: Zimmerman's bloody head
Posted by: Dennis S
Date: April 20, 2012 04:35PM
Zimmerman thinking he thought his life was threatened and Zimmerman saying he thought his life was threatened are two different things.
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Re: Zimmerman's bloody head
Posted by: $tevie
Date: April 20, 2012 04:40PM
I really almost feel like I shouldn't comment on the photo since I don't think it should be circulating in the first place, but I can't help myself. I don't think it looks like a head that was being bashed against the sidewalk. It looks like a head that hit the sidewalk. If it was being forcibly and repeatedly smacked onto the sidewalk, I'd expect something more raw and puffy with the blood smeared all around instead of trickling down in rivulets. But, it is just one photo.


"Stop thinking about art works as objects, and start thinking about them as triggers for experiences." ~ Brian Eno
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Re: Zimmerman's bloody head
Posted by: Pam
Date: April 20, 2012 04:54PM
Quote
Spock
Quote
Pam

I think this is going to come down on two things; can someone provoke a confrontation and then use lethal force and was his life really being threatened (as opposed to possibly getting his ass kicked).

No, its doesn't matter if "his life is really being threatened", what matters under the Florida law is if "he thinks his life is really being threatened".

I understand that. And that is what has bothered me about this case all along. You could approach anyone you do not like, start a fight, then pull a gun claiming to feel your life is in danger. The qualification for justification can't simply be the shooter's claim which could easily be bogus. One can get their ass handed to them in a fight and be pretty tore up but be in no life threatening situation. It's just too easy to pull a gun when you know going in that you don't have to handle yourself in such a way to avoid the fight or get yourself out of it when the other guy is getting the best of you. Under one scenario Martin had the right to stand his ground without worrying that the other guy would pull a gun and also claim stand your ground.
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Re: Zimmerman's bloody head
Posted by: btfc
Date: April 20, 2012 05:45PM
It is possible Zimmerman will be held to a slightly higher standard, as his training included specific warnings not to carry firearms in his Neighborhood Watch capacity, and he was told by police specifically not to follow Trayvon Martin shortly before the shooting.
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Re: Zimmerman's bloody head
Posted by: Seacrest
Date: April 20, 2012 06:38PM
Wrestlers bleed like this all the time.
It's an old trick they use to cut themselves and create massive blood flows from minor lacerations.

Not saying that's what happened here, but bleeding from the head in and of itself doesn't mean much.

Then there's that whole part about him being the armed agressor and all.




Live from Berserkeley, California | Originally from the City of Brotherly Freakin' Love
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Re: Zimmerman's bloody head
Posted by: Spock
Date: April 20, 2012 07:26PM
Quote
Pam
Quote
Spock
Quote
Pam

I think this is going to come down on two things; can someone provoke a confrontation and then use lethal force and was his life really being threatened (as opposed to possibly getting his ass kicked).

No, its doesn't matter if "his life is really being threatened", what matters under the Florida law is if "he thinks his life is really being threatened".

I understand that. And that is what has bothered me about this case all along. You could approach anyone you do not like, start a fight, then pull a gun claiming to feel your life is in danger. The qualification for justification can't simply be the shooter's claim which could easily be bogus. One can get their ass handed to them in a fight and be pretty tore up but be in no life threatening situation. It's just too easy to pull a gun when you know going in that you don't have to handle yourself in such a way to avoid the fight or get yourself out of it when the other guy is getting the best of you. Under one scenario Martin had the right to stand his ground without worrying that the other guy would pull a gun and also claim stand your ground.

Its a very bad law. At the time it was enacted the potential for bad acts was pointed out yet the slaves to the NRA insisted on passing it. Tallahassee is the fount of much of the worlds dumbassery.





Comedy Central: Best news channel that isn't a news channel.

Fox News: Best comedy channel that isn't a comedy channel.
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Re: Zimmerman's bloody head
Posted by: haikuman
Date: April 20, 2012 11:34PM
I wonder how many people have been murdered since this unfortunate and sad incident.

I wonder what the real issue is regarding tragic, preventable murders in the USA.

I really do not wonder that much about the cerebral masturbation that imposes guilt,
that implicates special knowledge, that raises indignant questions, about, racism and
corrupt or lazy law enforcement, I do not wonder about media frenzies.

These are typical aspects of our current society. ymmv


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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/20/2012 11:34PM by haikuman.
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Re: Zimmerman's bloody head
Posted by: Chakravartin
Date: April 21, 2012 12:21AM
Quote
haikuman
I wonder how many people have been murdered since this unfortunate and sad incident.

I wonder what the real issue is regarding tragic, preventable murders in the USA.

I really do not wonder that much about the cerebral masturbation that imposes guilt,
that implicates special knowledge, that raises indignant questions, about, racism and
corrupt or lazy law enforcement, I do not wonder about media frenzies.

These are typical aspects of our current society. ymmv

boink smiley
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Re: Zimmerman's bloody head
Posted by: Dennis S
Date: April 21, 2012 01:10AM
We would never have heard about this case if the cops had arrested Zimmerman in the first place like they should have. Period.
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Re: Zimmerman's bloody head
Posted by: RgrF
Date: April 21, 2012 02:11AM
The media frenzy alluded to is a real thing.

Time was once the "mass media" was sort of monolithic in that it was tasked with reporting a crime story as a crime story and usually did it that way. Some would sensationalize crime to drive up circ while others would virtually ignore it.

Today's visual media is a part of the story. Beyond that it's expected to and mostly does jump to whatever political side it's previously decided to support.

The legal system has a different agenda, to decide if a crime been committed and if so what degree of crime? That should be the only thing left to decide.

That it took the media focus to force the criminal justice system into what might otherwise be routine actions, almost guarantees a circus from here on out.

I've seen way too many of these in the past and am tuning out.
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Re: Zimmerman's bloody head
Posted by: $tevie
Date: April 21, 2012 12:09PM
BTW, every time I see the headline for this thread, I think of Perseus holding the head of Medusa.


"Stop thinking about art works as objects, and start thinking about them as triggers for experiences." ~ Brian Eno
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Re: Zimmerman's bloody head
Posted by: Black
Date: April 21, 2012 05:30PM
Quote
$tevie
BTW, every time I see the headline for this thread, I think of Perseus holding the head of Medusa.

And I get a bad itch to edit the subject line to include "...on a silver platter."


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Re: Zimmerman's bloody head
Posted by: kanesa
Date: April 21, 2012 09:51PM
The reason I call it stalking is because Zimmerman never would have been there except for the fact that he was following Martin. He also got out of his car and approached Martin. If Zimmerman had listened to the dispatcher, none of this would have happened. So I will call it stalking. It wasn't like he was on a leisure drive and decided to take a walk. He was after Martin. If only he had listened to the dispatcher there would be no dead kid.
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Re: Zimmerman's bloody head
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: April 22, 2012 08:55AM
Quote
kanesa
If only he had listened to the dispatcher there would be no dead kid.

Or not been armed while on his shopping trip to Target.

He's the poster boy for why the cops don't want untrained cop-wanna-be's going around with loaded concealed firearms.
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Re: Zimmerman's bloody head
Posted by: Bill in NC
Date: April 23, 2012 04:07PM
Thanks for clarifying your personal view, though it doesn't meet the legal definition of stalking (i.e., not a criminal act).

Please remember the dispatcher never told Zimmerman not to follow, merely stated they didn't need him to follow.

Of course, dispatchers are not sworn officers, so anything they say is a suggestion, not an order.

However, IIRC, Zimmerman's story is that he lost sight of Martin and returned to his vehicle before the fight started.

Unless there's a witness who hasn't yet come forward (or video) we'll likely never _know_ who started the fight.

Quote
kanesa
The reason I call it stalking is because Zimmerman never would have been there except for the fact that he was following Martin. He also got out of his car and approached Martin. If Zimmerman had listened to the dispatcher, none of this would have happened. So I will call it stalking. It wasn't like he was on a leisure drive and decided to take a walk. He was after Martin. If only he had listened to the dispatcher there would be no dead kid.
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Re: Zimmerman's bloody head
Posted by: decay
Date: April 25, 2012 10:30AM
Quote
kanesa
The wounds look small and superficial. Head wounds can bleed a great deal but this isn't a lot of blood. It appears to have stopped bleeding. It's a sensationalistic photo. If I had someone stalking me, I might have done more damage if the guy approached me.

correct - head wounds generally do bleed a lot more.




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