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Pit bulls are to be considered dangerous dogs, rules Maryland's highest court
Posted by: Gutenberg
Date: April 27, 2012 07:50PM
What the ruling does is simplify winning damages for victims of pit bull attacks, because until this ruling the plaintiff had to prove that the dog had been vicious before and the owner knew it. Now victims can get damages if they can prove they were attacked by the pit.

I understand the basis for the ruling--the level of proof was impossibly high before--but this could be very bad for pit owners, making it harder to find housing. And people in Maryland will not be as likely to adopt pits, and dangerous dogs by law have to be restrained and muzzled. It's really unfortunate.

The parents of the victim in this case sued the landlord of the owner of the dog. Deep pockets. I am not at all convinced the landlord was culpable.

[www.baltimoresun.com]
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Re: Pit bulls are to be considered dangerous dogs, rules Maryland's highest court
Posted by: Chakravartin
Date: April 27, 2012 08:24PM
I've heard that pit bulls are very smart and easily trained as rescue animals and guide dogs and that there are more injuries and fatalities from Dobermans and Rottweilers than from bull-terrier mixes.

There are stories every year of pit bulls saving lives.

It's shameful that abuse of these animals has ended up with these innocent animals branded as villains and more shameful that a panel of judges acted from such prejudice.
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Re: Pit bulls are to be considered dangerous dogs, rules Maryland's highest court
Posted by: Spock
Date: April 27, 2012 09:42PM
Dogs that were originally bred to fight and kill, how could that be a problem.





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Re: Pit bulls are to be considered dangerous dogs, rules Maryland's highest court
Posted by: davester
Date: April 27, 2012 10:50PM
Quote
Chakravartin
I've heard that pit bulls are very smart and easily trained as rescue animals and guide dogs and that there are more injuries and fatalities from Dobermans and Rottweilers than from bull-terrier mixes.

For one thing, comparing a breed to dobermans and rottweilers is not exactly something that exonerates them. It's like saying that Attila the Hun killed fewer people than Hitler. Also, I don't think your statement jives with the actual statistics on pit bulls. The fact is that pit bulls have been selectively bred to be vicious and unstoppable attackers. The dogs are weapons that most humans can't defend themselves against. Any dog can be smart and nice 95% of the time. It's that 5% that's the problem, and when "Little Pitty" has his born and bred primary instinct turned on then whoever or whatever is on the other end suffers the gruesome consequences. I think pits, dobermans, rottweilers, etc should all be labelled as "dangerous dogs" so that the owners have to jump through hoops to own them and perhaps have difficulty housing them. There has been massive overbreeding of these types of dogs (mostly pits lately) to provide "pets" to macho people who like the notoriety that comes with owning a 4-legged loaded weapon. When those people cast off their "pets" we end up with vast numbers of them inhabiting animal shelters, the situation that exists today. We need to nip that whole stupidass attitude in the bud and make those people really think twice before getting one.



"So be proud to be a decent American instead of just a w'anker whipping up fear!" - Michael D. Higgins, President of Ireland
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Re: Pit bulls are to be considered dangerous dogs, rules Maryland's highest court
Posted by: Chakravartin
Date: April 27, 2012 11:20PM
> The fact is that pit bulls have been selectively
> bred to be vicious and unstoppable attackers.

No. They haven't. That's a myth.

Bulldogs are known as gentle and even tempered animals. Bull terriers are the clowns of the dog world and among the most docile breeds. Just because they look pugnacious, that doesn't make them mean-spirited.

The idea that crossing two of the least aggressive dogs in the world would result in a natural-born killer is nonsensical and easily contradicted with a little research.

[atts.org]

(Higher scoring animals are more passive.)

If instinctive aggression is your goal, you'd have better luck crossing a collie and dachshund.
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Re: Pit bulls are to be considered dangerous dogs, rules Maryland's highest court
Posted by: RgrF
Date: April 27, 2012 11:49PM
Anecdotal but nonetheless true. We had a full breed black Lab, came to us named Buckey - a derivation of Buckwheat one of movies Deadend Kids. It was soon changed to W. Buckminster to keep the original while losing the connotation.

At his 10 or 111th year (seemed he was with us forever) my then 17 yr old son was walking him around a very familiar suburban neighborhood. An unrestrained Pit Bull attacked and locked onto the Lab. Terrified beyond belief but seeing his childhood buddy being gored attacked the pit. As he told us later, still trembling, he first pulled at the dog, unsuccessful he kicked it in the face and then the abdomen - this went on for what must have seemed an eternity for a kid - all the while yelling for help. Nothing worked, he grabbed the Pit's ears, tail and feet but it just wouldn't quit.

Finally, as he described it to me later, he ran out of ideas and no one was coming to help save his dog - that's when he ran to the back of the melee, wound up his foot and kicked the Pit in the @#$%&. The dog released and ran, wobbled is how he described it, and he carried the 90 lb Lab home. We got the Lab to the vet and many $ later he became unstitched and lived to a normal age.

The irresponsible owner/trainer of that pit was never located. Damn good thing it wasn't a female Pit.
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Re: Pit bulls are to be considered dangerous dogs, rules Maryland's highest court
Posted by: Chakravartin
Date: April 28, 2012 12:37AM
Are we tossing out stories of dog-aggression and pretending that isolated instances support general conclusions?

'Better run away the next time you see a pocket-dog!

[www.sfgate.com]

A police officer escorting a teenager home from a traffic stop Thursday morning was attacked by Chihuahuas at the boy's home...
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Re: Pit bulls are to be considered dangerous dogs, rules Maryland's highest court
Posted by: Black
Date: April 28, 2012 01:29AM
Quote
Chakravartin
Are we tossing out stories of dog-aggression and pretending that isolated instances support general conclusions?
I don't think so, but we certainly could if you wish.

Sort of a decent summary here:
[www.straightdope.com]


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Re: Pit bulls are to be considered dangerous dogs, rules Maryland's highest court
Posted by: RgrF
Date: April 28, 2012 06:28AM
Quote
Chakravartin
Are we tossing out stories of dog-aggression and pretending that isolated instances support general conclusions?

'Better run away the next time you see a pocket-dog!

[www.sfgate.com]

A police officer escorting a teenager home from a traffic stop Thursday morning was attacked by Chihuahuas at the boy's home...

It was, as stated, anecdotal.
What part of that was unclear?
The surmise of the incident was that it was a dangerous dog with an irresponsible owner/keeper.
What part of that did you not get?

As to your response about the "pocket-dog". It's irrelevant, unless you're faced with battling one alone in a dark alley (or anywhere else for that matter) and would prefer it be an angry Staffordshire or Rottweiler instead, what's your point?
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Re: Pit bulls are to be considered dangerous dogs, rules Maryland's highest court
Posted by: mattkime
Date: April 28, 2012 07:11AM
while we're adding our stories...

we used to have neighbors that had a pit bull. it enjoyed wandering into the backyard, sniffing around and taking a nap. vicious creature!

one day my cat (leashed) caught eye of the pit bull. my cat was curious in the reckless way that cats can be. he found the end of his leash and started waving his paw in the air - he wanted to bop the dog. (curiosity + fear = slap and run away) a staring contest ensued. then, somehow, SLAP, my cat landed his blow and the pit bull turned around and ran away, confused and a little bit intimidated.

the pit bull returned in a couple of minutes, surely reminded once inside why he had gone outside. more staring contest.....BOP! WOOF WOOF WOOF WOOF WOOF! At this point i start reeling in my cat by the leash. As soon as i do this, the dog runs back inside, apparently confused and upset about whats going on.

my cat, weston, is lucky enough to live to tell the tale.

---

pit bulls are wonderful dogs that attract terrible owners. its disappointing that their mean reputation is such wonderful fodder for the media and government.


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Re: Pit bulls are to be considered dangerous dogs, rules Maryland's highest court
Posted by: Acer
Date: April 28, 2012 08:06AM
I've got an anecdote, too, from my in-aws. Their 12 pound Pomeranian mix, tied up in her own back yard for the 500th time in her life, was mauled by a loose pit. The owner was cited and helped pay for the extensive sew-up.

You can own one if you want, they are not inherently evil (pits, I mean, jury still out on Pomeranians smiling smiley ), but for most people they are not a practical item, they are a symbol of owner's hubris.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/28/2012 08:10AM by Acer.
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Re: Pit bulls are to be considered dangerous dogs, rules Maryland's highest court
Posted by: Surfrider
Date: April 28, 2012 09:22AM
"Pit bulls are wonderful dogs that attract terrible owners. its disappointing that their mean reputation is such wonderful fodder for the media and government."

I agree.

I've had both very good and very bad experiences with pit bulls.

The bad: Our idiot neighbors pit bull attacked out Lab a couple of times, finally my wife's pleading with the police got them to take the dog. The owner was totally clueless, made for a very dicey situation.

The good/great: We have a pitbull/lab mix from the shelter. We got him as a 9 month old. Someone found him thrown away in a dumpster...in December!
We brought him home, he and our lab sorted things out with a couple of serious barking matches, now everything is cool. He's a smart, loving dog. He doesn't tolerate squirrels or cats walking on our street but if we have company, he's fine (not cat or squirrel company!).

He has reverse brindle coloring tan, brown and black stripes, he looks like a little tiger, very cool.

That said, if you train them to fight/kill, they will. If you train them to be nice, they will. They're protective of their family, but all good dogs are. They won't randomly attack.
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Re: Pit bulls are to be considered dangerous dogs, rules Maryland's highest court
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: April 28, 2012 10:15AM
Looking at detailed stats on which dogs injure and kill, I simply would not have a pit bull or a rottweiler at home. Not worth the risk when there are so many other wonderful dogs. And "responsible owner" or no prior reports of aggression does not seem to mitigate that risk very much, looking at the individual cases

"Dog bite statistics ::

Each day, about 1,000 U.S. citizens require emergency care treatment for dog bite injury.1 The following studies examine injury occurrence and the dog breeds most likely to bite.
Dog Attack Deaths and Maimings, U.S. & Canada,
September 1982 to December 26, 2011

By compiling U.S. and Canadian press accounts between 1982 and 2011, Merritt Clifton, editor of Animal People, shows the breeds most responsible for serious injury and death.
The combination of pit bulls, rottweilers, their close mixes and wolf hybrids:

77% of attacks that induce bodily harm
73% of attacks to children
81% of attack to adults
68% of attacks that result in fatalities
76% that result in maiming

(compare that with their prevalence in the canine population - yikes!)

[www.dogsbite.org]
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Re: Pit bulls are to be considered dangerous dogs, rules Maryland's highest court
Posted by: RgrF
Date: April 28, 2012 11:00AM
Quote
Acer
... but for most people they are not a practical item, they are a symbol of owner's hubris.

Agreed. I tend to think the same of Hummer owners, but that's most likely just my Volvo orientation bleeding through.

addedum as to breeds:

Over the years, mongrels aside we've owned/kept the likes of a full bloded Siberian Husky, St. Bernard, Afghan Hound, Collie, Irish Setter and Labrador. The all time family champ and favorite was the Lab - absolutely the best tempered of all.

In our dotage we have a needy, neurotic Dachsund/mix rescue dog. Christ I'm starting to sound like Gene.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/28/2012 11:12AM by RgrF.
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Re: Pit bulls are to be considered dangerous dogs, rules Maryland's highest court
Posted by: swampy
Date: April 28, 2012 02:23PM
Obviously the members of th court ane not Ceasar Milan fans.




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Re: Pit bulls are to be considered dangerous dogs, rules Maryland's highest court
Posted by: cbelt3
Date: April 28, 2012 02:33PM
There are no bad dogs. There are only bad owners.

The real problem is people who get a dog that looks 'badass' because they want to be a 'badass'. And don't care for the dog and give the dog the kind of affection and attention that any pack animal needs.

Back when I was a teen I worked summers as a maintenance man in an apartment building. There was a young lady who was DAMN attractive, who would sunbathe in one of those late 70's string bikini things outside her apartment. She was married, hubby was away a lot. And hubby had gotten her a big Doberman... we suspect as man repellent. So I made a point of packing dog treats just so I could pet the dog, chat her up, and dream about petting... well, her ! Big Bad Doggie was a big 'ol softie.
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Re: Pit bulls are to be considered dangerous dogs, rules Maryland's highest court
Posted by: Spock
Date: April 28, 2012 03:14PM
Quote
cbelt3
There was a young lady who was DAMN attractive, who would sunbathe in one of those late 70's string bikini things outside her apartment. Big Bad Doggie was a big 'ol softie.

A big 'ol softie is not what you need when dealing with a young lady in a string bikini.wink smiley





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Fox News: Best comedy channel that isn't a comedy channel.
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Re: Pit bulls are to be considered dangerous dogs, rules Maryland's highest court
Posted by: billb
Date: April 28, 2012 03:31PM
Given the number of alternatives, we really don't need pit bulls and rotties.
Just as we could do without liberal fascists.
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Re: Pit bulls are to be considered dangerous dogs, rules Maryland's highest court
Posted by: Uncle Wig
Date: April 28, 2012 04:29PM
Pit bulls are a form of terrier which has been bred over many generations to attack and kill. That's their job, that's their instinct. It isn't a matter of "good dog/bad owner." That's just a meaningless platitude. It doesn't mean they can't be sweet and friendly, but it will always be a part of their nature, somewhere down inside. Deeper inside, I guess, if the dog is a pit mix. It's exactly the same as a border collie's nature is to herd. Have any of you tried training a border collie NOT to herd? Can't do it.



[www.flickr.com] [picasaweb.google.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/28/2012 04:29PM by Uncle Wig.
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Re: Pit bulls are to be considered dangerous dogs, rules Maryland's highest court
Posted by: $tevie
Date: April 28, 2012 06:13PM
The two worst maulings I've ever known of in our dog park were: a husky attacked a mixed breed and actually ripped part of its face so it was kind of hanging off. Thank god I missed the attack but I stumbled upon the scene after the attack as they were taking it to the vet, and it was appalling, not just the face but the neck and shoulders looked like there'd been a knife attack. Thank God the dog recovered. The other one, which I missed again thank God, was when two Italian mastiffs attacked a child and hurt it pretty badly. And a friend's Lhasa Apso bites everyone, I'm very scared of it, and she's on notice that the next time it bites the city is going to destroy it.

The dogs I am most afraid are Akitas and Chows: and I think because they sense that, Akitas and Chows always give me a hairy eyeball. I wonder if sometimes Pits aren't reacting to a palpable fear emanating from the person they go for. Dogs can pick up on the slightest clues: My Lab attacked a Chow once, and since he was not in the habit of attacking dogs I really think he felt my fear and thought he had to protect me.

My co-worker has a Lab/Pit mix and it's a sweetie, as is his English Bulldog/Pit mix. I once knew a Staffordshire terrier who was very friendly.

I am as nervous about Pit Bulls as the next person, but I honestly believe that if you could euthanize the owners instead of the dogs eventually we'd be rid of the sickos, the dogs who have been perverted will be rescued, and the Pittie could go back to being known as a child's best friend.

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Re: Pit bulls are to be considered dangerous dogs, rules Maryland's highest court
Posted by: Black
Date: April 28, 2012 06:38PM
Did the baby on the right survive?


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Re: Pit bulls are to be considered dangerous dogs, rules Maryland's highest court
Posted by: Spock
Date: April 28, 2012 07:17PM
Quote
billb
Given the number of alternatives, we really don't need pit bulls and rotties.
Just as we could do without liberal fascists.

Need to get rid of the right-wing conservative fascists at the same time.





Comedy Central: Best news channel that isn't a news channel.

Fox News: Best comedy channel that isn't a comedy channel.
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Re: Pit bulls are to be considered dangerous dogs, rules Maryland's highest court
Posted by: vision63
Date: April 28, 2012 07:18PM
While the statistics are daunting, there are millions of Pits in this country and the vast majority of them don't attack anyone. Otherwise we'd be awash in maulings. Everybody wants to use their knowledge base, fueled by Google to offer definitives about any subject that ever comes up. There's comfort in that somehow. The victims are the Pits that do nothing to anyone in addition to the ones abused by stupid owners.

Until we come to terms with the concept of pet "ownership," we're never going to be in control of the massive amount of animal abuse (cue Sarah McLachlan song). Ownership should be banned nationwide. Breeding should be banned as well for "all" pets until we achieve population control. Guardianships will help. We need a way to take dogs from abusive people. And don't get me started on the kitties.

Pits are beautiful animals. Stunningly beautiful dogs.
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Re: Pit bulls are to be considered dangerous dogs, rules Maryland's highest court
Posted by: Dennis S
Date: April 28, 2012 07:39PM
Dog maulings are probably number 347 on the List of Things We Need to Do Something About, but I wish there was a systematized way every state or locality could come up up with common sense solutions and laws ahead of time instead of doing them ad hoc and having kids and grownups and pets suffer because no one thought the problem was serious yet.
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Re: Pit bulls are to be considered dangerous dogs, rules Maryland's highest court
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: April 28, 2012 07:47PM
I don't find them beautiful at all, but that's a highly individual thing. I'm a collie person myself. There are things that could be done to help the pit bull but as a breed they are in crisis in our country. No point pretending otherwise. Of course it's not the dog's fault.

Anyway, we ARE somewhat "awash" in maulings. Deaths are blessedly infrequent but injuries are very common. The victims are most often small children. And the canine perpetrator more often than not is a pit mix of some type, or a rottweiler. One factor isn't just the aggressive nature of the dog but the fact that the size and strength of the jaw yields a worse bite than that of other dogs.

Pit bulls are the most abused breed of dog and the most frequently killed in shelters. They are also difficult to manage in shelters, where they often kill other dogs.

Banning certain breeds hasn't been shown to accomplish anything (yet) but having stricter laws against dogfighting and other abuse of animals would help a lot. What Michael Vick was doing isn't even illegal in all states.

[www.humanesociety.org]
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Re: Pit bulls are to be considered dangerous dogs, rules Maryland's highest court
Posted by: vision63
Date: April 28, 2012 08:12PM
Quote
Lemon Drop
I don't find them beautiful at all, but that's a highly individual thing. I'm a collie person myself. There are things that could be done to help the pit bull but as a breed they are in crisis in our country. No point pretending otherwise. Of course it's not the dog's fault.

Anyway, we ARE somewhat "awash" in maulings. Deaths are blessedly infrequent but injuries are very common. The victims are most often small children. And the canine perpetrator more often than not is a pit mix of some type, or a rottweiler. One factor isn't just the aggressive nature of the dog but the fact that the size and strength of the jaw yields a worse bite than that of other dogs.

Pit bulls are the most abused breed of dog and the most frequently killed in shelters. They are also difficult to manage in shelters, where they often kill other dogs.

Banning certain breeds hasn't been shown to accomplish anything (yet) but having stricter laws against dogfighting and other abuse of animals would help a lot. What Michael Vick was doing isn't even illegal in all states.

[www.humanesociety.org]

Beauty is in the eye of the beheld ~ Nikki Giovanni

We're awash in many things. It doesn't mean that we should abandon intellect to resolve issues. It's easy to attempt simple-minded fixes that have little remedy.
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Re: Pit bulls are to be considered dangerous dogs, rules Maryland's highest court
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: April 28, 2012 08:39PM
Quote
vision63
Quote
Lemon Drop
I don't find them beautiful at all, but that's a highly individual thing. I'm a collie person myself. There are things that could be done to help the pit bull but as a breed they are in crisis in our country. No point pretending otherwise. Of course it's not the dog's fault.

Anyway, we ARE somewhat "awash" in maulings. Deaths are blessedly infrequent but injuries are very common. The victims are most often small children. And the canine perpetrator more often than not is a pit mix of some type, or a rottweiler. One factor isn't just the aggressive nature of the dog but the fact that the size and strength of the jaw yields a worse bite than that of other dogs.

Pit bulls are the most abused breed of dog and the most frequently killed in shelters. They are also difficult to manage in shelters, where they often kill other dogs.

Banning certain breeds hasn't been shown to accomplish anything (yet) but having stricter laws against dogfighting and other abuse of animals would help a lot. What Michael Vick was doing isn't even illegal in all states.

[www.humanesociety.org]

Beauty is in the eye of the beheld ~ Nikki Giovanni

We're awash in many things. It doesn't mean that we should abandon intellect to resolve issues. It's easy to attempt simple-minded fixes that have little remedy.

What is your suggestion then because nothing you suggested above is going to happen. There will be no nationwide ban and no ban on breeding of "all pets."
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Re: Pit bulls are to be considered dangerous dogs, rules Maryland's highest court
Posted by: vision63
Date: April 28, 2012 09:58PM
Quote
Lemon Drop
Quote
vision63
Quote
Lemon Drop
I don't find them beautiful at all, but that's a highly individual thing. I'm a collie person myself. There are things that could be done to help the pit bull but as a breed they are in crisis in our country. No point pretending otherwise. Of course it's not the dog's fault.

Anyway, we ARE somewhat "awash" in maulings. Deaths are blessedly infrequent but injuries are very common. The victims are most often small children. And the canine perpetrator more often than not is a pit mix of some type, or a rottweiler. One factor isn't just the aggressive nature of the dog but the fact that the size and strength of the jaw yields a worse bite than that of other dogs.

Pit bulls are the most abused breed of dog and the most frequently killed in shelters. They are also difficult to manage in shelters, where they often kill other dogs.

Banning certain breeds hasn't been shown to accomplish anything (yet) but having stricter laws against dogfighting and other abuse of animals would help a lot. What Michael Vick was doing isn't even illegal in all states.

[www.humanesociety.org]

Beauty is in the eye of the beheld ~ Nikki Giovanni

We're awash in many things. It doesn't mean that we should abandon intellect to resolve issues. It's easy to attempt simple-minded fixes that have little remedy.

What is your suggestion then because nothing you suggested above is going to happen. There will be no nationwide ban and no ban on breeding of "all pets."

There really no point in even discussing it. If people aren't ready for real solutions then they're not ready for it. Legislators are gonna legislate, people are gonna bloviate, dogs will gaze upon the lake, while reminiscing about the child they ate.
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Re: Pit bulls are to be considered dangerous dogs, rules Maryland's highest court
Posted by: Black
Date: April 28, 2012 10:00PM
Quote
vision63
Quote
Lemon Drop
I don't find them beautiful at all, but that's a highly individual thing. I'm a collie person myself. There are things that could be done to help the pit bull but as a breed they are in crisis in our country. No point pretending otherwise. Of course it's not the dog's fault.

Anyway, we ARE somewhat "awash" in maulings. Deaths are blessedly infrequent but injuries are very common. The victims are most often small children. And the canine perpetrator more often than not is a pit mix of some type, or a rottweiler. One factor isn't just the aggressive nature of the dog but the fact that the size and strength of the jaw yields a worse bite than that of other dogs.

Pit bulls are the most abused breed of dog and the most frequently killed in shelters. They are also difficult to manage in shelters, where they often kill other dogs.

Banning certain breeds hasn't been shown to accomplish anything (yet) but having stricter laws against dogfighting and other abuse of animals would help a lot. What Michael Vick was doing isn't even illegal in all states.

[www.humanesociety.org]

Beauty is in the eye of the beheld ~ Nikki Giovanni

We're awash in many things. It doesn't mean that we should abandon intellect to resolve issues. It's easy to attempt simple-minded fixes that have little remedy.

Sounds like a strong argument to do nothing, which leaves things open for rulings like that in Maryland.
Personally I'd be plenty happy with a ban on anything resembling a pit bull in Chicago. I'm drowning in them here, and the majority of those around me are not treated properly.


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Re: Pit bulls are to be considered dangerous dogs, rules Maryland's highest court
Posted by: vision63
Date: April 28, 2012 10:03PM
Dogs are personal property.
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Re: Pit bulls are to be considered dangerous dogs, rules Maryland's highest court
Posted by: Black
Date: April 28, 2012 10:07PM
Quote
vision63
Dogs are personal property.

O.K. These same people can't own Sherman tanks or sub-machine guns. I've got no problem with that either. Do you?


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Re: Pit bulls are to be considered dangerous dogs, rules Maryland's highest court
Posted by: vision63
Date: April 28, 2012 10:18PM
Quote
Black
Quote
vision63
Dogs are personal property.

O.K. These same people can't own Sherman tanks or sub-machine guns. I've got no problem with that either. Do you?

They're not weapons of mass destruction. They're dogs. It's not unprecedented to "alter" ownership of pets (see San Francisco for ex.). THEN, you can consider removing an animal against the owners will. A city can ban the purchase of all pets too. Just allow shelter adoptions. This is a more realistic and reasonable way to deal with the prospect of vicious dogs while not discriminating with owners who are responsible. This avoids using discrimination as a solution. Something our country is really good at.
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Re: Pit bulls are to be considered dangerous dogs, rules Maryland's highest court
Posted by: Black
Date: April 28, 2012 10:33PM
Quote
vision63
Quote
Black
Quote
vision63
Dogs are personal property.

O.K. These same people can't own Sherman tanks or sub-machine guns. I've got no problem with that either. Do you?

They're not weapons of mass destruction. They're dogs. It's not unprecedented to "alter" ownership of pets (see San Francisco for ex.). THEN, you can consider removing an animal against the owners will. A city can ban the purchase of all pets too. Just allow shelter adoptions. This is a more realistic and reasonable way to deal with the prospect of vicious dogs while not discriminating with owners who are responsible. This avoids using discrimination as a solution. Something our country is really good at.

How would you stop people from just going outside city limits to purchase them? Such a ban would have absolutely no effect in a major US city.
I don't understand why you keep throwing out these suggestions that you have to know can not realistically be implemented with any sort of effect.


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Re: Pit bulls are to be considered dangerous dogs, rules Maryland's highest court
Posted by: vision63
Date: April 28, 2012 10:54PM
Quote
Black
Quote
vision63
Quote
Black
Quote
vision63
Dogs are personal property.

O.K. These same people can't own Sherman tanks or sub-machine guns. I've got no problem with that either. Do you?

They're not weapons of mass destruction. They're dogs. It's not unprecedented to "alter" ownership of pets (see San Francisco for ex.). THEN, you can consider removing an animal against the owners will. A city can ban the purchase of all pets too. Just allow shelter adoptions. This is a more realistic and reasonable way to deal with the prospect of vicious dogs while not discriminating with owners who are responsible. This avoids using discrimination as a solution. Something our country is really good at.

How would you stop people from just going outside city limits to purchase them? Such a ban would have absolutely no effect in a major US city.
I don't understand why you keep throwing out these suggestions that you have to know can not realistically be implemented with any sort of effect.

What you don't understand is, while I know it's not likely, your remedies are just as unlikely. This is an issue that's not going to really be resolved any time soon no matter what is tried. Because whatever anyone tries now isn't going to work. That's how stuff works. They're just going to generate new victims.
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Re: Pit bulls are to be considered dangerous dogs, rules Maryland's highest court
Posted by: Black
Date: April 29, 2012 12:01AM
Quote
vision63
Quote
Black
Quote
vision63
Quote
Black
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vision63
Dogs are personal property.

O.K. These same people can't own Sherman tanks or sub-machine guns. I've got no problem with that either. Do you?

They're not weapons of mass destruction. They're dogs. It's not unprecedented to "alter" ownership of pets (see San Francisco for ex.). THEN, you can consider removing an animal against the owners will. A city can ban the purchase of all pets too. Just allow shelter adoptions. This is a more realistic and reasonable way to deal with the prospect of vicious dogs while not discriminating with owners who are responsible. This avoids using discrimination as a solution. Something our country is really good at.

How would you stop people from just going outside city limits to purchase them? Such a ban would have absolutely no effect in a major US city.
I don't understand why you keep throwing out these suggestions that you have to know can not realistically be implemented with any sort of effect.

What you don't understand is, while I know it's not likely, your remedies are just as unlikely. This is an issue that's not going to really be resolved any time soon no matter what is tried. Because whatever anyone tries now isn't going to work. That's how stuff works. They're just going to generate new victims.

It's entirely conceivable that Chicago city council could make it criminally punishable to have a pit bull. Just wait until a cop or fireman gets mauled.


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Re: Pit bulls are to be considered dangerous dogs, rules Maryland's highest court
Posted by: vision63
Date: April 29, 2012 01:35AM
Quote
Black
Quote
vision63
Quote
Black
Quote
vision63
Quote
Black
Quote
vision63
Dogs are personal property.

O.K. These same people can't own Sherman tanks or sub-machine guns. I've got no problem with that either. Do you?

They're not weapons of mass destruction. They're dogs. It's not unprecedented to "alter" ownership of pets (see San Francisco for ex.). THEN, you can consider removing an animal against the owners will. A city can ban the purchase of all pets too. Just allow shelter adoptions. This is a more realistic and reasonable way to deal with the prospect of vicious dogs while not discriminating with owners who are responsible. This avoids using discrimination as a solution. Something our country is really good at.

How would you stop people from just going outside city limits to purchase them? Such a ban would have absolutely no effect in a major US city.
I don't understand why you keep throwing out these suggestions that you have to know can not realistically be implemented with any sort of effect.

What you don't understand is, while I know it's not likely, your remedies are just as unlikely. This is an issue that's not going to really be resolved any time soon no matter what is tried. Because whatever anyone tries now isn't going to work. That's how stuff works. They're just going to generate new victims.

It's entirely conceivable that Chicago city council could make it criminally punishable to have a pit bull. Just wait until a cop or fireman gets mauled.

And it's perfectly conceivable that it will be overturned, just like Miami-Dade's will in August. However. It's not gonna happen in Chicago.
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Re: Pit bulls are to be considered dangerous dogs, rules Maryland's highest court
Posted by: Pops
Date: April 29, 2012 05:41AM
Quote
Black
It's entirely conceivable that Chicago city council could make it criminally punishable to have a pit bull. Just wait until a cop or fireman gets mauled.
Should that happen, I hope they have better luck collecting for damages than this woman.
Quote
In the most serious case in Schenectady, a woman was attacked in August by three pit bulls that got out of their yard. The woman, Shirleen Lucas, 58, was walking down a city street early in the morning on Aug. 22 when the three pit bulls mauled her. Ms. Lucas needed more than 200 stitches on her ears, legs and arms and had to have surgery to treat her injuries, Mr. Edman said.
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Re: Pit bulls are to be considered dangerous dogs, rules Maryland's highest court
Posted by: Black
Date: April 29, 2012 11:47AM
April 2012:
[chicago.cbslocal.com]
CHICAGO (CBS) – It turns out the man who walked off after his pit bull mauled a tiny dog to death was a Chicago Police officer.

January 2012:
[www.foxnews.com]
"They were just going after the man like he was a piece of steak," Stanley Lee, who swung a baseball bat at the dogs in hopes to free the jogger, told MyFoxChicago.com. He went on to say the dogs went for the jogger's throat, face and arms, and called the attack the worst thing he has ever seen.

April 2012:
[www.suntimes.com]
At least one pit bull was running loose in the area and it bit another dog, taking “a good chunk” out of a chocolate Labrador that was being walked by its owner, a neighbor said.

April 2012:
[www.wsbt.com]
A pitbull bit off the nose of a Chicago man who was trying to help out a neighbor.

Bill Lesinski was helping a downstairs neighbor when the pitbull attacked him Friday night. Lesinski bent down to look at a speaker when the dog lunged at him. He says 2-year-old Monster has been aggressive in the past with his pitbull but had never attacked a person.

Etc.


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Re: Pit bulls are to be considered dangerous dogs, rules Maryland's highest court
Posted by: $tevie
Date: April 29, 2012 12:08PM
The only thing I will add is that I can remember when Dobermans were said to be uncontrollably vicious and attacked without warning, but somehow that seems to be miraculously cured now that Dobes are no longer the dog of choice for hostile, aggressive and/or criminal types. Make of that what you will.


"Stop thinking about art works as objects, and start thinking about them as triggers for experiences." ~ Brian Eno



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/29/2012 12:08PM by $tevie.
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Re: Pit bulls are to be considered dangerous dogs, rules Maryland's highest court
Posted by: Black
Date: April 29, 2012 12:34PM
Quote
$tevie
The only thing I will add is that I can remember when Dobermans were said to be uncontrollably vicious and attacked without warning, but somehow that seems to be miraculously cured now that Dobes are no longer the dog of choice for hostile, aggressive and/or criminal types. Make of that what you will.

OK, so if we take your point that it's not the breed of dog but the way they're trained/handled, where does that leave us? Do all dogs have the same physical capacity to do damage when provoked? Do all breeds have the same propensity for "bizarre" attacks without apparent provocation?

There's a bit of a craze 'round these parts at the moment for mini-dobermans or doberman-chihuahua mixes.


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Re: Pit bulls are to be considered dangerous dogs, rules Maryland's highest court
Posted by: davester
Date: April 29, 2012 12:47PM
I don't think there's been any change in the perceived status of Dobermans. They, as well as german shepherds, pit bulls, presa canarios and rottweilers have all been bred to be strong aggressive fighters that can overwhelm large animals and humans, and as such are dangerous animals. It's just that the dobie has fallen from favor amongst those who believe their manhood is defined by owning an aggressive and dangerous dog and that pit bulls and presa canarios have taken their place. I don't think it's a good idea to ban any specific breed, but I do think that it is perhaps a good idea to codify regulations that make ownership requirements for potentially dangerous dog breeds address the risks and liability of owning those dogs. Any dog can become aggressive and out of control if abused or trained to be that way, but the danger to a person from an out of control pack of spaniels is a tiny fraction of the danger from a single adult pit bull. This is proven by the dog attack fatality and maiming statistics.



"So be proud to be a decent American instead of just a w'anker whipping up fear!" - Michael D. Higgins, President of Ireland



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/29/2012 12:48PM by davester.
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Re: Pit bulls are to be considered dangerous dogs, rules Maryland's highest court
Posted by: hal
Date: April 29, 2012 03:29PM
I tried to search the SF chronicle for the story of a woman mauled to death in an apt. hallway as people cowered behind their peep holes. It made national news.

I couldn't find THAT one, but there were dozen of others. Pets that kill are dangerous and should be kept from killing and maiming more effectively than they are today.

There are all kinds of exotic animals that are banned from personal ownership because they are dangerous - why not some dogs? Or at the very, very least have more restrictive muzzle laws.
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Re: Pit bulls are to be considered dangerous dogs, rules Maryland's highest court
Posted by: RgrF
Date: April 29, 2012 06:01PM
Quote
U.S. fatal pit bull attacks have surpassed 180 since 1998; the last year the CDC studied fatal dog attack data. In the 20-year period of the CDC study, pit bulls averaged 3.8 deaths per year. During a recent 7-year period (2005 to 2011), they averaged 18.3 per year, up roughly 480%.
more here
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Re: Pit bulls are to be considered dangerous dogs, rules Maryland's highest court
Posted by: lafinfil
Date: April 29, 2012 06:04PM
Quote
hal
I tried to search the SF chronicle for the story of a woman mauled to death in an apt. hallway as people cowered behind their peep holes. It made national news.

[www.sfdogmauling.com]
[dogbitelaw.com]


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Re: Pit bulls are to be considered dangerous dogs, rules Maryland's highest court
Posted by: Greg
Date: April 29, 2012 06:42PM
Not pits; Canary Dogs, if memory serves.
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Re: Pit bulls are to be considered dangerous dogs, rules Maryland's highest court
Posted by: Chakravartin
Date: April 29, 2012 08:51PM
Quote
Greg
Not pits; Canary Dogs, if memory serves.

People don't know what Canary dogs are.

It's a lot easier to remember it as a pit bull mauling, to report it as a pit bull mauling and then to ban pit bulls.

Similar mechanisms are probably behind 90% of the laws passed in this nation.
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Re: Pit bulls are to be considered dangerous dogs, rules Maryland's highest court
Posted by: mattkime
Date: April 29, 2012 08:59PM
i agree that if pits are banned then another dog with a similar reputation will become popular. (however, the city can certainly say what animals can be owned in the city.)

i think the real solution is to highly regulate the breeding and sale of pets. i think we'd all be in agreement (well, aside from the puppy mill owners and some libertarians) but it'll never come to pass.






Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/29/2012 09:03PM by mattkime.
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Re: Pit bulls are to be considered dangerous dogs, rules Maryland's highest court
Posted by: billb
Date: April 30, 2012 10:24AM
They are served with soy sauce liberally applied in the White House.
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Re: Pit bulls are to be considered dangerous dogs, rules Maryland's highest court
Posted by: Wags
Date: April 30, 2012 11:51AM
I got bit by a pit bull. Luckily, it was several years ago when I was still nimble enough to stop it from getting a good grip on my knee. Hurt like hell as it was, and ruined my pants (go ahead, say it: "Inside and out?", etc.) I had to spend a couple hours in the ER getting tetanus shots and having the wound cleaned.

Apparently it had been terrorizing the neighborhood for several weeks. The idiot who owned it had bought it fully grown from someone who had trained it to be vicious. He had left the front door wide open, then called a cab (me) and when I went up to the door the dog came boiling out snarling and snapping. I shudder to think what might have happened if a pre-schooler had wandered across the yard.

I called the cops, who then called animal control and while I was waiting the guy came out and offered me $5 to compensate me for my ruined pants. I refused and told him the dog was going into quarantine, at the very least. Then he threatened to track me down with his buddies and give me a beat down. He ran off before the cops got there.

Animal control took the dog and put it into quarantine. Good thing, too, because I would have had to go through rabies treatment otherwise. A couple weeks later they called me to let me know I was in the clear. They put the dog down. I am not a fan of the breed, but I have know some that were quite amiable. Doesn't mean I would trust them around strangers.
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Re: Pit bulls are to be considered dangerous dogs, rules Maryland's highest court
Posted by: the_poochies
Date: April 30, 2012 12:46PM
My neighbor's pit bull got out of the yard last week. He came over to see my poochie, jumping, licking, wagging his tail and wanting to play. My pooch would have none of that frivolity. She gave him a quick snarl and the pit thought it would be best if he headed back to his home.
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