[latimesblogs.latimes.com]

I think he's another person who has come into the American sphere of attention, who, with millions of others, has been fighting for their theoretical rights in the entirely corrupt Pyramid Oligarchy that is China's "Government".

I also don't think he has a prayer of survival in the long term. But I honor his personal bravery and sacrifice.

Very interesting. Chen's future does seem dicey, the only hope being that because of his high profile activism, the Chinese gov't will be under some pressure to follow through on it's promise not to harass him or his family.
Was just discussing the human rights situation in China with my son last night. He made an interesting comment. People tend to assume that China has always been oppressive while the West has been the beacon of enlightenment and freedom. He made the case that throughout most of its ancient history the Chinese were actually tolerant of diverse religious and political ideas, while the west was very oppressive. Westerners finally revolted and overthrew governments in order to achieve freedom. Chinese gov'ts rose and fell around economic and military triumphs and failures, but the people enjoyed basic freedoms.
Once China adopted its current western (Marxist) idea of governing, it then adopted oppressive practices formerly unique to western societies. While you can pin the idea of running the gov't with a complex, merit-based bureaucracy on Confuscionist ideas from the distant past; religious and social oppression wasn't part of that.
The Chinese adopted oppression, it will be interesting to see if down the road they also adopt revolution.

I would ask your son about China's policies since the 1980's. They show exactly the opposite.

Ask him about the ethnic cleansing that goes on, with the desired result that only the Han people will remain.

Quote
cbelt3
Ask him about the ethnic cleansing that goes on, with the desired result that only the Han people will remain.

We pretty effectively completed that task here in North America, didn't we? Fantastic at preaching about present-day atrocities while pretending to ignore the legacy of our own, aren't we?

Sorry to thread-jack, but some comments absolutely demand accountability.

---

rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future

Quote
cbelt3
I would ask your son about China's policies since the 1980's. They show exactly the opposite.

Ask him about the ethnic cleansing that goes on, with the desired result that only the Han people will remain.

I think you misread my comment.
I'm saying that China is very oppressive NOW. After adopting Marxist policies. That was not, however, their history.

AP is reporting he wants out of China. Now. He said the Chinese authorities threatened to beat his wife to death if he did not leave the US Embassy. He is now in a hospital but he can't stay there forever.

We should party like it's 1999, send in the Bin Laden Seat Team to take him out.
With a little luck we'll get 10% off on ipads.

Quote
Lemon Drop

Quote
cbelt3
I would ask your son about China's policies since the 1980's. They show exactly the opposite.

Ask him about the ethnic cleansing that goes on, with the desired result that only the Han people will remain.

I think you misread my comment.
I'm saying that China is very oppressive NOW. After adopting Marxist policies. That was not, however, their history.

Also, Chinese policies of ethnic cleansing aren't "Marxist" in any reasonable sense of that term. I'm not an apologist for communism, but it's intellectually sloppy to confuse Marxism, Stalinism, Maoism, etc. We don't refer to Joseph Kony's religious zealotry as "modern day Christian revivalism." Marxism in itself has absolutely nothing to do with genocide - if anything, Marxism in Europe served to resist the Nazi genocide during World War II, and formed the basis for socialism in Western Europe and the development of the European Union.

---

rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future

Quote
Gutenberg
AP is reporting he wants out of China. Now. He said the Chinese authorities threatened to beat his wife to death if he did not leave the US Embassy. He is now in a hospital but he can't stay there forever.

Different story coming out of the embassy, which says he never asked for asylum and that they never said his family would be in danger. Definitely a sensitive and high profile challenge for Gary Locke.
[www.cbsnews.com]

"U.S. interlocutors did make clear that if Chen elected to stay in the embassy, Chinese officials had indicated to us that his family would be returned to Shandong, and they would lose their opportunity to negotiate for reunification," said Nuland. "And at no point during his time in the embassy did Chen ever request political asylum in the U.S. At every opportunity, he expressed his desire to stay in China, reunify with his family, continue his education and work for reform in his country."

rjmacs.. correct. However... political philosophies are not 'movements' per se... it's the people that embraced elements of it that produced the resistance. And people rally behind a philosophy, but the real philosophy they act on is generally "Our way is good, your way stinks.". Power, in other words.

And Gute... yes, of course. However you'll find that China's primary strategy in their history was one of absorbing conquerors rather than resisting them, and eventually overwhelming their cultures with the root Chinese culture. It was "the reed bends, the oak breaks" sort of tactics. In the end, the various 'acceptable' religions, philosophies, cultures, etc.. were subsumed at an evolutionary pace rather than a revolutionary pace. But they were still subsumed and rooted out. Sometimes by force of arms (Boxer 'rebellion' ?)

Lemon Drop.. of course America has a rotten history. And I think we've generally learned from it. I would hope you're not pointing that out as a conversational gambit to say "Well, WE used to do that, so it's OK for the Chinese to do that now.". Most such comparisons appear to be that sort of quasi-logical gambit. And yes, I'll freely admit to occasionally using that sort of logic. And being called on it.

I never said "America has a rotten history."

I am referring to very big chunks of history, long before "America" was on anyone's radar except the first nations. China's ancient history, going back thousands of years, v. what happened in western culture over thousands of years.

I feel that my comment was completely misunderstood and I'm withdrawing from the conversation.

Quote
cbelt3
rjmacs.. correct. However... political philosophies are not 'movements' per se... it's the people that embraced elements of it that produced the resistance. And people rally behind a philosophy, but the real philosophy they act on is generally "Our way is good, your way stinks.". Power, in other words.

This would apply to any philosophy, good or bad, no? I was trying to put some historical context to some overly broad generalizations about these philosophies being tossed around here.

Quote
cbelt3
Lemon Drop.. of course America has a rotten history. And I think we've generally learned from it. I would hope you're not pointing that out as a conversational gambit to say "Well, WE used to do that, so it's OK for the Chinese to do that now.". Most such comparisons appear to be that sort of quasi-logical gambit. And yes, I'll freely admit to occasionally using that sort of logic. And being called on it.

Actually, cbelt3, it was i who made this point. And you are correct that i wasn't justifying genocide of American Indians or of Chinese ethnic minorities. You say that "we've generally learned from it," but i wonder if you've taken a look at the status of American Indians in the United States today. Do you suppose that they are wholly responsibly for their present-day predicaments? If so, i'd be curious to hear your explanation as to why they're such persistent failures. If not, i'd be curious to know why we - those who profit from the legacy of that genocide - have no responsibility for the suffering caused by that legacy. (And that is why i apologized in advance for thread-jacking - my point is not really about Chinese ethnic cleansing - it's about the hypocrisy of Western critics.)

---

rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future

rj-
yep.

Oh, the plight of the Native American is most severe, and sustained by that most ancient and dysfunctional department of the government, the Bureau of Indian Affairs. 19th century laws and thinking in the 21st century.... pretty gnarly.

I have a brother in law who has sufficient Indian blood in him to be involved in some of the problems. They're still treated as 'non citizens' in many laws.

I thought it obvious that Lemon Drop was discussing China's long long history and not the 1980's.

_________________________________________________________


What Chen Guangcheng told his government vs what he told the people in the embassy vs what he told family and/or friends may be three different tellings altogether. He is in a terrible position and may have had to prevaricate on some points at some times.

---

"Stop thinking about art works as objects, and start thinking about them as triggers for experiences." ~ Brian Eno

Quote
cbelt3
And Gute... yes, of course. However you'll find that China's primary strategy in their history was one of absorbing conquerors rather than resisting them, and eventually overwhelming their cultures with the root Chinese culture. It was "the reed bends, the oak breaks" sort of tactics. In the end, the various 'acceptable' religions, philosophies, cultures, etc.. were subsumed at an evolutionary pace rather than a revolutionary pace. But they were still subsumed and rooted out. Sometimes by force of arms (Boxer 'rebellion' ?)

What? I passed along an AP dispatch. How did I come to deserve this pedantic lecture?

Gutenburg would like to share this interesting update on the Chen story.

"The Chinese activist who left the U.S. Embassy but then had a change of heart tells NPR from his hospital bed that he wasn't prepared for what would happen after leaving diplomatic protection.

Chen Guangcheng, who spent six days in the embassy after escaping from house arrest, had seemed upbeat a day ago as American officials drove him to Beijing for medical care and to be reunited with his family. He was heading, he hoped, to a new life, with assurances of safety, he believed, underwritten by the U.S.

Just 16 hours later, Chen is close to tears. In a phone interview with NPR's Louisa Lim, he admits he wouldn't have left the embassy had he realized what was in store."
[www.npr.org]

He has a snowballs chance in hell. The US and the news media have done what they could do
to expose the oppression in China. Time more pain, suffering and exposure will define Chinas future path and world acceptance of Chinas position as a world leader or a world trash can.

---

“Stay Hungry Stay Foolish"
"There are only two mantras yummm and yuk "
"There is a fine line between a rut and a groove"
"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly
and applying the wrong remedies."Groucho Marx
"I got to that part and I knew there was going to be some weapons grade stupid to follow"Lux Interior
"When all the trees have been cut down, when all the animals have been hunted,
when all the waters are polluted, when all the air is unsafe to breathe, only then
will you discover you cannot eat money."
~ Cree Prophecy

He is now free to apply to study abroad.

Charles Manson is also free to apply to study abroad.


Okay, bad comparison, but I'm sticking with it.

"elegant solution"

Like the sound of that, hope it comes true.
He has a letter of invitation from NYU. Will be fantastic to see him and his family on the plane with Sec. Clinton when she leaves Beijing.
(or him on any one way flight out of there.)

[www.npr.org]

His eyes are no good, but his kidneys may still bring a good price.

I wouldn't hold my breath that he'll ever leave China alive.