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This is going to get real messy
Posted by: swampy
Date: June 12, 2012 12:09PM
[www.thegatewaypundit.com]

Pat Caddell (D) names national security advisor Tom Donilon (D) as source for top security leaks.

Phoo-poo the source if you want, but it's a Democrat calling Donilon out and it's going to be hard for Obama to put this genie back in the bottle.




If you don't stand for something, you'll probably fall for anything.
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Re: This is going to get real messy
Posted by: john dough
Date: June 12, 2012 12:12PM
Too bad you did not say anything when Cheney outed a CIA operative. Now THAT was worth getting upset about, being treason and all.


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Re: This is going to get real messy
Posted by: $tevie
Date: June 12, 2012 12:20PM
Quote

But yesterday, Caddell announced that he thinks it’s likely that National Security Advisor Tom Donilon is the likely leaker of intelligence – and guess who’s all ears and used it as "inside" evidence of President Obama's complicity?

Sean Hannity announced enthusiastically, “Democratic insider Pat Caddell is pulling no punches and naming names. He says he knows exactly who spoke to the New York Times and it is somebody with extremely close ties to President Obama.”

Well, not exactly. Although Caddell did say on video, “the culprit is clear. It’s Tom Donilon, the National Security Advisor” and went on to call him “a political hack” who is known in Washington as “the leaker in chief,” he had to walk it back and tell the Hannity viewers that he didn’t really know who's the culprit, he just felt certain it's Donilon.

Hannity, meanwhile, had already jumped the gun by saying, “Caddell’s allegation is critical to this investigation” and because of that “allegation,” “We may ultimately find out that the President himself was the one who in fact authorized the release of this highly classified information.”

Why wait for facts when you’ve got theories?

“I didn’t say I definitively know. I said definitively who it was,” Caddell told Hannity, as two-time voter-fraud suspect Ann Coulter giggled off camera

[www.newshounds.us]


"Stop thinking about art works as objects, and start thinking about them as triggers for experiences." ~ Brian Eno
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Re: This is going to get real messy
Posted by: Pam
Date: June 12, 2012 12:31PM
Geez, have you read the wikipedia entry on Pat Caddell? [en.wikipedia.org]. If he had a radio show he'd be another Limbaugh.
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Re: This is going to get real messy
Posted by: Avenger
Date: June 12, 2012 12:36PM
Quote
john dough
Too bad you did not say anything when Cheney outed a CIA operative. Now THAT was worth getting upset about, being treason and all.

That far less significant matter got its own Special Prosecutor although nobody ever told us what secret mission Valerie Plame was engaged while living in Virginia. And to put a final nail into your equivalence theory Libby was not charged for revealing Plame's CIA status. Moreover, Wilson's suit was also subsequently dismissed. What do you got?
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Re: This is going to get real messy
Posted by: cbelt3
Date: June 12, 2012 12:46PM
secret smiley It's a deliberate attempt by the Obama administration to distract America during the election season secret smiley

Meh, who cares. Folks who work in classified areas know full well that when the Whitehouse learns something, it WILL get leaked. You do your damndest not to tell those idiots anything dangerous.
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Re: This is going to get real messy
Posted by: Gutenberg
Date: June 12, 2012 12:54PM
So now you are in intelligence, Belty? Gosh, how do you get the time for all these careers?
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Re: This is going to get real messy
Posted by: john dough
Date: June 12, 2012 01:01PM
Quote
Avenger
Quote
john dough
Too bad you did not say anything when Cheney outed a CIA operative. Now THAT was worth getting upset about, being treason and all.

That far less significant matter got its own Special Prosecutor although nobody ever told us what secret mission Valerie Plame was engaged while living in Virginia. And to put a final nail into your equivalence theory Libby was not charged for revealing Plame's CIA status. Moreover, Wilson's suit was also subsequently dismissed. What do you got?

When you have the vice president of the US leaking information about CIA operatives through his supordinates, how is this not treason?? Regardless of your fondness for Dick, he was (and is) a dirty censored smiley and outed a member of the government.

The whole matter was brushed aside by the same people that did the deed in the first place. The Bush administration contained some of the most corrupt individuals ever in Washington, but we would never know from you as you give them all a pass.

You have only been back a short time and are proving that you still do not know what the fcensored smileyk you are talking about.


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Re: This is going to get real messy
Posted by: cbelt3
Date: June 12, 2012 02:41PM
Quote
Gutenberg
So now you are in intelligence, Belty? Gosh, how do you get the time for all these careers?
No. I may have done a little bit of work for them, but I was never an employee.
My statement is a general observation based on decades of seeing this kind of thing play out in the press, and statements by Intelligence officials, and talking to a few guys who did in fact work in Intelligence.

So it's hearsay. But I'm confident it's true.

Factoid: Any time you see on TV or a movie where a CIA official hand over his 'business card' with the official CIA logo on it... is a LIE. The business card for a CIA officer has his or her name and contact information. That's it. I filed the few I got under "Relatives" and wrote "Uncle".

Yes... I remembered watching that show. big grin smiley
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Re: This is going to get real messy
Posted by: Avenger
Date: June 12, 2012 02:57PM
Quote
john dough
Quote
Avenger
Quote
john dough
Too bad you did not say anything when Cheney outed a CIA operative. Now THAT was worth getting upset about, being treason and all.

That far less significant matter got its own Special Prosecutor although nobody ever told us what secret mission Valerie Plame was engaged while living in Virginia. And to put a final nail into your equivalence theory Libby was not charged for revealing Plame's CIA status. Moreover, Wilson's suit was also subsequently dismissed. What do you got?

When you have the vice president of the US leaking information about CIA operatives through his supordinates, how is this not treason?? Regardless of your fondness for Dick, he was (and is) a dirty censored smiley and outed a member of the government.

The whole matter was brushed aside by the same people that did the deed in the first place. The Bush administration contained some of the most corrupt individuals ever in Washington, but we would never know from you as you give them all a pass.

You have only been back a short time and are proving that you still do not know what the fcensored smileyk you are talking about.

You did not refute any of the facts I cited. Cheney even had time to get a heart transplant. Not bad for a "traitor".
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Re: This is going to get real messy
Posted by: Avenger
Date: June 12, 2012 03:11PM
Quote
cbelt3
secret smiley It's a deliberate attempt by the Obama administration to distract America during the election season secret smiley

Meh, who cares. Folks who work in classified areas know full well that when the Whitehouse learns something, it WILL get leaked. You do your damndest not to tell those idiots anything dangerous.

What national security secret can you keep from the White House?
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Re: This is going to get real messy
Posted by: cbelt3
Date: June 12, 2012 03:36PM
Avenger-
You can keep anything secret as long as they are smart enough to not ask about it.
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Re: This is going to get real messy
Posted by: john dough
Date: June 12, 2012 03:39PM
Quote
Avenger
You did not refute any of the facts I cited. Cheney even had time to get a heart transplant. Not bad for a "traitor".

I refuted no facts as you presented none. Care to back up with proof? As far as I remember, you did not do that in the past and I am not holding my breath now.

BTW, it was an IMPLANT, not a transplant. You joke about Cheney but that does not change the fact that wahat he did, regardless of political party, was reprehensible at best and criminal at worst. If a Democrat did that, I would want them in jail, but again, you give him a pass as you are all about party, nothing else.


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Re: This is going to get real messy
Posted by: Avenger
Date: June 12, 2012 03:44PM
Quote
john dough
[
I refuted no facts as you presented none. Care to back up with proof?

Refute this:

- Special Prosecutor was appointed in the Valerie Plame case.
- Nobody was convicted for "outing" her.
- Plame/WIlson lawsuit against Cheney was thrown out.
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Re: This is going to get real messy
Posted by: john dough
Date: June 12, 2012 04:07PM
On March 6, 2007, Libby was convicted of 4 out of 5 charges of lying under oath. Where, yes, no one was convicted because of the "outing" (mainly because the Bush administration stonewalled on giving information on the case) there should have been. Cheney and company put Plame at risk of death and for what? Political disagreement?? These people that allowed this to happen are some of the worst people ever to serve in government, bar none. This was absolutely traitorous behavior but people like you defended these crooks based on party affiliation, nothing else.

Libby's sentence was commuted by Bush (that was a surprise).

The lawsuit was NOT thrown out, it was not heard.

Get your facts in order before you post. If you want to continue playing, be my guest. You have yet to prove what you assert here (some things will never change).






Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 06/12/2012 04:17PM by john dough.
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Re: This is going to get real messy
Posted by: Avenger
Date: June 12, 2012 06:48PM
Thanks for confirming everything I said. No one was convicted for outing Plame, a Special Prosecutor was assigned to the case and Wilson/Plame lawsuit was thrown out not heard. If this petty word choice makes you happy be my guest. In other words, you got nothing.
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Re: This is going to get real messy
Posted by: john dough
Date: June 12, 2012 07:16PM
For you to accuse anyone of having nothing or saying they have a petty word choice is the absolute height of irony.

Can you back up what you are talking about? I do not care about your opinion, I care about facts (which you have yet to bring up). What do you have?

As long as you are responding to my posts, answer this:

Without mentioning Obama, name at least one thing that a Romney presidency will do to better life for people in the middle class.

I have posted that question before and have yet to get an honest answer. If Mitt is your candidate, what do you have to say?


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Re: This is going to get real messy
Posted by: Carnos Jax
Date: June 12, 2012 08:08PM
Quote
john dough
For you to accuse anyone of having nothing or saying they have a petty word choice is the absolute height of irony.

smiling bouncing smiley thumbs up
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Re: This is going to get real messy
Posted by: $tevie
Date: June 12, 2012 08:59PM
This isn't about Plume, it's about Caddell expressing a purely personal opinion based on his personal dislike for someone, and having it presented as if it was a fact or at the very least a result of some kind of investigating on his part.

This wasn't any more significant than hearing a guy in a bar saying he thinks it was Donilon.


"Stop thinking about art works as objects, and start thinking about them as triggers for experiences." ~ Brian Eno
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Re: This is going to get real messy
Posted by: Pam
Date: June 12, 2012 09:04PM
Quote
$tevie
This isn't about Plume, it's about Caddell expressing a purely personal opinion based on his personal dislike for someone, and having it presented as if it was a fact or at the very least a result of some kind of investigating on his part.

This wasn't any more significant than hearing a guy in a bar saying he thinks it was Donilon.

Yep. As a Fox employee there's also incentive to make such statements.
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Re: This is going to get real messy
Posted by: hal
Date: June 12, 2012 09:12PM
Quote
Pam
Yep. As a Fox employee there's also incentive to make such statements.

you're too kind - the guy is clearly a stooge - a prop...
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Re: This is going to get real messy
Posted by: cbelt3
Date: June 13, 2012 11:02AM
Quote
john dough

Without mentioning Obama, name at least one thing that a Romney presidency will do to better life for people in the middle class.

I think I already answered this question before, so I'll paraphrase.

Nothing. Presidents are not Kings.

Now change your question to "One thing a Republican majority Congress and Republican Presidency would do" and I would answer "Nothing good ever comes from single party control of the Legislative and Executive branches".

(FWIW I'm not planning on voting for Mitt at this juncture).
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Re: This is going to get real messy
Posted by: Spock
Date: June 13, 2012 11:05AM
Quote

Fox News gets okay to misinform public, court ruling

The attorneys for Fox, owned by media baron Rupert Murdoch, successfully argued the First Amendment gives broadcasters the right to lie or deliberately distort news reports on the public airwaves.

[ceasespin.org]

Says it all.





Comedy Central: Best news channel that isn't a news channel.

Fox News: Best comedy channel that isn't a comedy channel.
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Re: This is going to get real messy
Posted by: cbelt3
Date: June 13, 2012 11:14AM
Spock... same rule applies to the infamous 'liberal media', which has been the case for, oh, forever. Ben Franklin had rather strong opinions on the position of an independent press, as I recall.

I'm not in favor of opinion as news, and think it's rather unprofessional, but the modern professional journalist is an endangered species, and has been replaced by the nattering nabobs in most media information outlets.

If you're a consumer of media 'news' and think that the 'news' is not slanted or even outright fabricated at times in some way or another, you are hopelessly naiive.
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Re: This is going to get real messy
Posted by: swampy
Date: June 13, 2012 11:48AM
[www.cbsnews.com]

Eric Holder has appointed two attorneys to investigate the source of the leaks. These guys work for DoJ and are not independent special prosecutors. Do you trust them to find the truth?




If you don't stand for something, you'll probably fall for anything.
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Re: This is going to get real messy
Posted by: Pam
Date: June 13, 2012 12:38PM
Quote
swampy
[www.cbsnews.com]

Eric Holder has appointed two attorneys to investigate the source of the leaks. These guys work for DoJ and are not independent special prosecutors. Do you trust them to find the truth?

Yes. At what point do you stop trusting swampy? You want special council on everything? Besides this is an ATF vs NRA battle.
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Re: This is going to get real messy
Posted by: swampy
Date: June 13, 2012 01:02PM
Wrong thread, Pam. This is not about ATF or NRA. this investigation deals with the National Security leaks.

To answer your question though, I stop trusting when the perception is that the fox is guarding the hen house.




If you don't stand for something, you'll probably fall for anything.
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Re: This is going to get real messy
Posted by: $tevie
Date: June 13, 2012 02:08PM
If you have decided that the entire DOJ is untrustworthy, then there isn't much that is going to please you. Hiring a special council won't fix that.


"Stop thinking about art works as objects, and start thinking about them as triggers for experiences." ~ Brian Eno
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Re: This is going to get real messy
Posted by: Pam
Date: June 13, 2012 02:27PM
Quote
swampy
Wrong thread, Pam. This is not about ATF or NRA. this investigation deals with the National Security leaks.

To answer your question though, I stop trusting when the perception is that the fox is guarding the hen house.

Ha! Answer is still yes. Here's a good synopsis of how this could impact a lot of people from both parties [www.theatlanticwire.com]

I think along $tevie's line, you don't trust anyone but a Republican. Even if a special counsel was appointed and the leaks were not coming from the White House, you wouldn't believe it.

Also note that "leaks" to get information out to the public for various purposes is a bipartisan activity.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/13/2012 02:29PM by Pam.
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Re: This is going to get real messy
Posted by: swampy
Date: June 13, 2012 03:22PM
Treason is not bipartisan and the information that has been given to our enemies is just that. The leaks involved vital information about ongoing covert operations. Do you approve of giving our enemies top secrets????

One of the special attorneys that Holder appointed was a Bush appointment but he will be working for Holder and not independently..




If you don't stand for something, you'll probably fall for anything.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/13/2012 03:23PM by swampy.
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Re: This is going to get real messy
Posted by: $tevie
Date: June 13, 2012 03:38PM
Leaks are not automatically treasonous. That's sheer hyperbole.

[www.npr.org]
Quote

Not all leaks of classified information are criminal. A successful prosecution for disclosing secrets has to prove violation of the 1917 Espionage Act and show that the leaker realized it could harm the United States or help a foreign government.
...
The next question is whether Congress moves to criminalize leaks of classified information, a move some members have suggested.
...
"If Congress were to assert a hard line that each and every disclosure of classified information must be punished, a lot of the news-gathering and news-production process as we have known it would have to shut down," he says.

Congress passed just such a law in 2000, only to have it vetoed by President Clinton. In a statement, Clinton said he objected to a "badly flawed" provision that would have made the unauthorized disclosure of classified information a felony.

Clinton said that though well-intentioned, the provision is "overbroad and may unnecessarily chill legitimate activities that are at the heart of a democracy."

It's very obvious that the Republicans want at least one impeachment and one special counsel so they add it to their arsenal of "pointless information which can inflame the uninformed". Look what happened during the Obama administration Oh Nos.

This is how Washington operates now, and anyone who thinks the government has problems should agree that this constant "politics via Congressional hearings" should really be ended because it's just so much public masturbation. I'm fed up with it from both sides. This is NOT what we elect officials to do and it's out of control.


"Stop thinking about art works as objects, and start thinking about them as triggers for experiences." ~ Brian Eno
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Re: This is going to get real messy
Posted by: Pam
Date: June 13, 2012 03:44PM
Quote
swampy
Treason is not bipartisan and the information that has been given to our enemies is just that. The leaks involved vital information about ongoing covert operations. Do you approve of giving our enemies top secrets????

One of the special attorneys that Holder appointed was a Bush appointment but he will be working for Holder and not independently..

Maybe. What you see as treasonous leaks may be a well played hand.
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Re: This is going to get real messy
Posted by: swampy
Date: June 13, 2012 05:02PM
Pam, do you even know what these leaks involved?

* details about the Bin Laden raid
* the computer virus that was planted in the Iranian computers at their atomic lab
* who is on the drone kill list
* information about the Pakistan doctor that helped us identify Bin Laden ( who is now in jail for 30+ years)

You treat this as minor stuff. This is major! Even Valerie Plame got a special prosecutor for cripes sake. You'd be okay with an investigation of this administration that is RUN by Holder? What is your objection to a completely independent investigation when even staunch Democrats are calling for a special prosecutor?

One thing I can agree with Obama on when he says he is offended.... I AM TOO.




If you don't stand for something, you'll probably fall for anything.
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Re: This is going to get real messy
Posted by: Pam
Date: June 13, 2012 06:03PM
Quote
swampy
Pam, do you even know what these leaks involved?

* details about the Bin Laden raid
* the computer virus that was planted in the Iranian computers at their atomic lab
* who is on the drone kill list
* information about the Pakistan doctor that helped us identify Bin Laden ( who is now in jail for 30+ years)

You treat this as minor stuff. This is major! Even Valerie Plame got a special prosecutor for cripes sake. You'd be okay with an investigation of this administration that is RUN by Holder? What is your objection to a completely independent investigation when even staunch Democrats are calling for a special prosecutor?

One thing I can agree with Obama on when he says he is offended.... I AM TOO.

Yes I know. Which is why I am fine with the two appointed attorneys. If Obama did not want this info released then the culprit(s) will be uncovered and skewered. If this was a calculated leak, then that is the admin's prerogative. You and I are not privy to national security strategies.

I also suspect that a few of these issues could not be kept hidden. Particularly the virus and the doctor. Neither were going to stay under wraps for long given the circumstances. As for the Bin Laden raid, come on, who couldn't guess seal team 9 was involved. Why not take credit for the obvious and put more terrorists on notice. Drone kill list? I don't think that was hard to construct without inside info either.

In this information day and age at best you hope to control the release of info in order to take control of how it's presented. It's harder than ever to truly have a black op stay black op. If you get wind of something coming out, you beat them to it, spin it, and feign outrage at leaks. I seriously doubt it's truly black and white.
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Re: This is going to get real messy
Posted by: Spock
Date: June 13, 2012 07:00PM
Has anyone considered the possibility that these leaks contain deliberate disinformation hidden amongst the truth and that the hue and cry to find the leaker is to give validity to the lies?





Comedy Central: Best news channel that isn't a news channel.

Fox News: Best comedy channel that isn't a comedy channel.
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Re: This is going to get real messy
Posted by: Pam
Date: June 13, 2012 07:18PM
Quote
Spock
Has anyone considered the possibility that these leaks contain deliberate disinformation hidden amongst the truth and that the hue and cry to find the leaker is to give validity to the lies?

Yep
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Re: This is going to get real messy
Posted by: Lux Interior
Date: June 14, 2012 04:22AM
Quote
Spock
Has anyone considered the possibility that these leaks contain deliberate disinformation hidden amongst the truth and that the hue and cry to find the leaker is to give validity to the lies?

Yeah, but it doesn't fit in with the "Obama hates America" narrative.
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