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Long article about Fast and Furious
Posted by: $tevie
Date: June 27, 2012 02:43PM
Re: Long article about Fast and Furious
Posted by: hal
Date: June 27, 2012 03:10PM
I doubt our Obama bashers will read it since the intro reads:

A Fortune investigation reveals that the ATF never intentionally allowed guns to fall into the hands of Mexican drug cartels. How the world came to believe just the opposite is a tale of rivalry, murder, and political bloodlust.

That's not what they want to hear AT ALL!
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Re: Long article about Fast and Furious
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: June 27, 2012 03:14PM
Wow, interesting. Thanks for the link.

A risky federal operation involving one of the world's most criminally inflamed areas is in disarray, insubordination, bad reporting by major media outlets, a murder, the White House and DoJ, the NRA, an election year and Daryl Issa.

John Gresham probably couldn't top this.
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Re: Long article about Fast and Furious
Posted by: Acer
Date: June 27, 2012 06:07PM
God bless the second amendment.
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Re: Long article about Fast and Furious
Posted by: Spock
Date: June 27, 2012 08:26PM
Quote
Acer
God bless the second amendment.

... and all those who've died as a result of its misinterpretation.






Comedy Central: Best news channel that isn't a news channel.

Fox News: Best comedy channel that isn't a comedy channel.
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Re: Long article about Fast and Furious
Posted by: Avenger
Date: June 27, 2012 08:29PM
Forget any cover ups. Somebody tell me what they were trying to do to begin with.
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Re: Long article about Fast and Furious
Posted by: Seacrest
Date: June 27, 2012 09:15PM
The first one was a fun diversion.
By the time they hit the 27th sequel, I'm long gone.





I am not Ryan Seacrest, and I do not approve this message.
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Re: Long article about Fast and Furious
Posted by: hal
Date: June 27, 2012 09:47PM
Quote
Avenger
Forget any cover ups. Somebody tell me what they were trying to do to begin with.

what?? you can't read? They were trying to find a method (and applicable federal laws) to arrest people buying up guns and taking them to mexico. BUT unfortunately, the amazingly lax laws in Arizona fight against that effort.
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Re: Long article about Fast and Furious
Posted by: $tevie
Date: June 27, 2012 10:42PM
You can tell by the question that he didn't read the article.



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Re: Long article about Fast and Furious
Posted by: Avenger
Date: June 28, 2012 08:12AM
Quote
hal
Quote
Avenger
Forget any cover ups. Somebody tell me what they were trying to do to begin with.

what?? you can't read? They were trying to find a method (and applicable federal laws) to arrest people buying up guns and taking them to mexico. BUT unfortunately, the amazingly lax laws in Arizona fight against that effort.

Sounds like you learned your lesson well from your mentor. Always blame somebody else. Besides, I thought gun laws are Federal. And, like immigration, Arizona should not meddle, right?
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Re: Long article about Fast and Furious
Posted by: Acer
Date: June 28, 2012 10:24AM
.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/28/2012 10:26AM by Acer.
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Re: Long article about Fast and Furious
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: June 28, 2012 11:06AM
Quote
Avenger
Besides, I thought gun laws are Federal.


What?

[www.bradycampaign.org]
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Re: Long article about Fast and Furious
Posted by: swampy
Date: June 28, 2012 11:12AM
According to the article the FBI was involved. That needs investigation since it adds a new dimension to the debate.



If you don't stand for something, you'll probably fall for anything.t
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Re: Long article about Fast and Furious
Posted by: max
Date: June 28, 2012 04:54PM
Quote
$tevie
You can tell by the question that he didn't read the article.
Sure, I did.
Thats the problem, I understood exactly what the spin was.


Quote

No federal statute outlaws firearms trafficking, so agents must build cases using a patchwork of often toothless laws. For six years, due to Beltway politics, the bureau has gone without permanent leadership, neutered in its fight for funding and authority. The National Rifle Association has so successfully opposed a comprehensive electronic database of gun sales that the ATF's congressional appropriation explicitly prohibits establishing one.
"We did not mean it.
It is all NRA's fault that we did not have competent supervision".
Quote

Quite simply, there's a fundamental misconception at the heart of the Fast and Furious scandal. Nobody disputes that suspected straw purchasers under surveillance by the ATF repeatedly bought guns that eventually fell into criminal hands. Issa and others charge that the ATF intentionally allowed guns to walk as an operational tactic. But five law-enforcement agents directly involved in Fast and Furious tell Fortune that the ATF had no such tactic. They insist they never purposefully allowed guns to be illegally trafficked. Just the opposite: They say they seized weapons whenever they could but were hamstrung by prosecutors and weak laws, which stymied them at every turn.
"We are so hapless."

Quote

The ATF is a bureau of judgment calls. Drug enforcement agents can confiscate cocaine and arrest anyone in possession of it. But ATF agents must distinguish constitutionally protected legal guns from illegal ones, with the NRA and other Second Amendment activists watching for missteps.
"We are so hapless.
It is all NRA's fault".

Quote

Critics have depicted the ATF as "jackbooted government thugs" trampling on the rights of law-abiding gun owners. From the deadly standoff with the Branch Davidian cult in Waco, Texas, in 1993 to allegations that ATF agents illegally seized weapons from suspected straw purchasers at a Richmond gun show in 2005, these scandals have helped cement the bureau's reputation in some quarters for law-enforcement overreach.
In part because of these notorious cases, the bureau has operated in a self-protective crouch.
"We are sooo hapless."

Quote

Even had they all gotten along, they faced a nearly impossible task. They were seven agents pursuing more than a dozen cases, of which Fast and Furious was just one, their efforts complicated by a lack of adequate tools.
"We are soooo hapless."

Quote

None of the ATF agents doubted that the Fast and Furious guns were being purchased to commit crimes in Mexico. But that was nearly impossible to prove to prosecutors' satisfaction....William Newell, then special agent in charge of the ATF's Phoenix field division, suspected that U.S. Attorney Dennis Burke, an Obama appointee, was not being briefed adequately by deputies about the volume of guns being purchased. He wrote to colleagues in February 2010 that the prosecutor seemed "taken aback by some of the facts I informed him about"—by then, the Fast and Furious suspects had purchased 800 guns—"so I am setting up a briefing for him (alone no USAO 'posse') about this case and several other cases I feel he is being misled about.".

"We are soooooooo hapless.
We are soooooooooo hapless and incompetent!"

Quote

Meanwhile, a crucial part of the Fast and Furious scandal—an unusual alliance that would prod politicians and spread word of the failure to stop guns from making their way to Mexican drug cartels—was waiting in the wings. Little more than a week after Terry's murder, a small item about the possible connection between his death and the Fast and Furious case appeared on a website, CleanUpATF.org. The site was the work of a disgruntled ATF agent-turned-whistleblower, Vince Cefalu, who is suing the bureau for alleged mistreatment in an unrelated case. His website has served as a clearinghouse for grievances and a magnet for other ATF whistleblowers.
It had also attracted gun-rights activists loosely organized around a blog called the Sipsey Street Irregulars, run by a former militia member, Mike Vanderboegh, who has advocated armed insurrection against the U.S. government. It was an incendiary combination: the disgruntled ATF agents wanted to punish and reform the bureau; the gun-rights activists wanted to disable it. After the item about Terry appeared, the bloggers funneled the allegations through a "desert telegraph" of sorts to Republican lawmakers, who began asking questions.

"Ouch, we got caught, our incompetence showing. Damn Republicans showing us up!"

Quote

New facts are still coming to light—and will likely continue to do so with the Justice Department inspector general's report expected in coming months. Among the discoveries: Fast and Furious' top suspects—Sinaloa Cartel operatives and Mexican nationals who were providing the money, ordering the guns, and directing the recruitment of the straw purchasers—turned out to be FBI informants who were receiving money from the bureau.
"Everybody else was doing it, too"


So what did I miss in this CYA spin piece?....
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Re: Long article about Fast and Furious
Posted by: Pam
Date: June 28, 2012 06:56PM
Quote
max
Quote
$tevie
You can tell by the question that he didn't read the article.
Sure, I did.
Thats the problem, I understood exactly what the spin was.


Quote

No federal statute outlaws firearms trafficking, so agents must build cases using a patchwork of often toothless laws. For six years, due to Beltway politics, the bureau has gone without permanent leadership, neutered in its fight for funding and authority. The National Rifle Association has so successfully opposed a comprehensive electronic database of gun sales that the ATF's congressional appropriation explicitly prohibits establishing one.
"We did not mean it.
It is all NRA's fault that we did not have competent supervision".
Quote

Quite simply, there's a fundamental misconception at the heart of the Fast and Furious scandal. Nobody disputes that suspected straw purchasers under surveillance by the ATF repeatedly bought guns that eventually fell into criminal hands. Issa and others charge that the ATF intentionally allowed guns to walk as an operational tactic. But five law-enforcement agents directly involved in Fast and Furious tell Fortune that the ATF had no such tactic. They insist they never purposefully allowed guns to be illegally trafficked. Just the opposite: They say they seized weapons whenever they could but were hamstrung by prosecutors and weak laws, which stymied them at every turn.
"We are so hapless."

Quote

The ATF is a bureau of judgment calls. Drug enforcement agents can confiscate cocaine and arrest anyone in possession of it. But ATF agents must distinguish constitutionally protected legal guns from illegal ones, with the NRA and other Second Amendment activists watching for missteps.
"We are so hapless.
It is all NRA's fault".

Quote

Critics have depicted the ATF as "jackbooted government thugs" trampling on the rights of law-abiding gun owners. From the deadly standoff with the Branch Davidian cult in Waco, Texas, in 1993 to allegations that ATF agents illegally seized weapons from suspected straw purchasers at a Richmond gun show in 2005, these scandals have helped cement the bureau's reputation in some quarters for law-enforcement overreach.
In part because of these notorious cases, the bureau has operated in a self-protective crouch.
"We are sooo hapless."

Quote

Even had they all gotten along, they faced a nearly impossible task. They were seven agents pursuing more than a dozen cases, of which Fast and Furious was just one, their efforts complicated by a lack of adequate tools.
"We are soooo hapless."

Quote

None of the ATF agents doubted that the Fast and Furious guns were being purchased to commit crimes in Mexico. But that was nearly impossible to prove to prosecutors' satisfaction....William Newell, then special agent in charge of the ATF's Phoenix field division, suspected that U.S. Attorney Dennis Burke, an Obama appointee, was not being briefed adequately by deputies about the volume of guns being purchased. He wrote to colleagues in February 2010 that the prosecutor seemed "taken aback by some of the facts I informed him about"—by then, the Fast and Furious suspects had purchased 800 guns—"so I am setting up a briefing for him (alone no USAO 'posse') about this case and several other cases I feel he is being misled about.".

"We are soooooooo hapless.
We are soooooooooo hapless and incompetent!"

Quote

Meanwhile, a crucial part of the Fast and Furious scandal—an unusual alliance that would prod politicians and spread word of the failure to stop guns from making their way to Mexican drug cartels—was waiting in the wings. Little more than a week after Terry's murder, a small item about the possible connection between his death and the Fast and Furious case appeared on a website, CleanUpATF.org. The site was the work of a disgruntled ATF agent-turned-whistleblower, Vince Cefalu, who is suing the bureau for alleged mistreatment in an unrelated case. His website has served as a clearinghouse for grievances and a magnet for other ATF whistleblowers.
It had also attracted gun-rights activists loosely organized around a blog called the Sipsey Street Irregulars, run by a former militia member, Mike Vanderboegh, who has advocated armed insurrection against the U.S. government. It was an incendiary combination: the disgruntled ATF agents wanted to punish and reform the bureau; the gun-rights activists wanted to disable it. After the item about Terry appeared, the bloggers funneled the allegations through a "desert telegraph" of sorts to Republican lawmakers, who began asking questions.

"Ouch, we got caught, our incompetence showing. Damn Republicans showing us up!"

Quote

New facts are still coming to light—and will likely continue to do so with the Justice Department inspector general's report expected in coming months. Among the discoveries: Fast and Furious' top suspects—Sinaloa Cartel operatives and Mexican nationals who were providing the money, ordering the guns, and directing the recruitment of the straw purchasers—turned out to be FBI informants who were receiving money from the bureau.
"Everybody else was doing it, too"


So what did I miss in this CYA spin piece?....

Because you don't agree it's cya? I didn't know Forbes was a liberal magazine. I do think it showed a lot of problems within the ATF and the overstepping of the NRA. There has got to be a middle ground.
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Re: Long article about Fast and Furious
Posted by: $tevie
Date: June 28, 2012 07:18PM
It's actually Fortune magazine, but same difference. He doesn't understand journalism when he sees it -- he seems to think the article is sticking up for the ATF and the DoJ, just because it's not written by someone who foams at the mouth when they see a picture of Holder. If you notice, he cannot post one single factual bit of information that disagrees with what is in that article. Only his snide little say-nothing comments.







Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/28/2012 07:20PM by $tevie.
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Re: Long article about Fast and Furious
Posted by: btfc
Date: June 28, 2012 07:31PM
Besides, he's wearing two different socks!

Quote
hal
Quote
Avenger
Forget any cover ups. Somebody tell me what they were trying to do to begin with.

what?? you can't read? They were trying to find a method (and applicable federal laws) to arrest people buying up guns and taking them to mexico. BUT unfortunately, the amazingly lax laws in Arizona fight against that effort.

Quote
max
Quote
$tevie
You can tell by the question that he didn't read the article.
Sure, I did.
Thats the problem, I understood exactly what the spin was.
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Re: Long article about Fast and Furious
Posted by: Dennis S
Date: June 28, 2012 08:24PM
Quote
btfc
Besides, he's wearing two different socks!

I noticed that.
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Re: Long article about Fast and Furious
Posted by: Avenger
Date: June 28, 2012 09:16PM
Make that 3.
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Re: Long article about Fast and Furious
Posted by: billb
Date: June 29, 2012 06:47AM
Quote
Avenger
Forget any cover ups. Somebody tell me what they were trying to do to begin with.
[www.youtube.com]



The Phorum Wall keeps us safe from illegal characters and words
The doorstep to the temple of wisdom is the knowledge of one's own ignorance. -Benjamin Franklin
BOYCOTT YOPLAIT [www.noyoplait.com]
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Re: Long article about Fast and Furious
Posted by: hal
Date: June 29, 2012 01:23PM
max is NOT avenger/dakota

Max has been around A LONG TIME and is a far right winger, but has a brain that works. If you take the time to learn, you will find that he has very specific, well thought out opinions. It's just that they're wrong :-)
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Re: Long article about Fast and Furious
Posted by: max
Date: June 29, 2012 01:55PM
Quote
Pam
Because you don't agree it's cya? I didn't know Forbes was a liberal magazine. I do think it showed a lot of problems within the ATF and the overstepping of the NRA. There has got to be a middle ground.
There was nothing for me to agree or to disagree with.
An independent analysis.
I think it is absolutely hilarious.
ATF and Holder are under attack from NRA and GOP and this IS a defensive piece, by all means.
All the minute details come from the open access to the individuals involved. That is not an accident.
"We did not conspire, we are incompetent" is the prevailing theme being pushed in every direction.
That "we are sooooo incompetent" is being seen as the viable defense to charges of conspiracy and cover up flung by the GOP, is by itself a sign of desperation.


Yes it is a desperate CYA piece....
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Re: Long article about Fast and Furious
Posted by: Manlove
Date: June 29, 2012 01:55PM
Quote
hal
max is NOT avenger/dakota

Max has been around A LONG TIME and is a far right winger, but has a brain that works. If you take the time to learn, you will find that he has very specific, well thought out opinions. It's just that they're wrong :-)

Thanks for pointing that out Hal- I was starting to wonder. Everything he doesn't like he calls 'spin', yet is entirely oblivious to his own spin.
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Re: Long article about Fast and Furious
Posted by: max
Date: June 29, 2012 02:35PM
Quote
hal
max is NOT avenger/dakota

Max has been around A LONG TIME and is a far right winger, but has a brain that works. If you take the time to learn, you will find that he has very specific, well thought out opinions. It's just that they're wrong :-)


Thanks hal, except for that far right part,


most of the posters here are a lot closer to the far right, than I ever be.
I am at the other end...
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Re: Long article about Fast and Furious
Posted by: Pam
Date: June 29, 2012 04:09PM
Quote
max
Quote
Pam
Because you don't agree it's cya? I didn't know Forbes was a liberal magazine. I do think it showed a lot of problems within the ATF and the overstepping of the NRA. There has got to be a middle ground.
There was nothing for me to agree or to disagree with.
An independent analysis.
I think it is absolutely hilarious.
ATF and Holder are under attack from NRA and GOP and this IS a defensive piece, by all means.
All the minute details come from the open access to the individuals involved. That is not an accident.
"We did not conspire, we are incompetent" is the prevailing theme being pushed in every direction.
That "we are sooooo incompetent" is being seen as the viable defense to charges of conspiracy and cover up flung by the GOP, is by itself a sign of desperation.


Yes it is a desperate CYA piece....

You're not saying that you are providing an independent analysis right?
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Re: Long article about Fast and Furious
Posted by: max
Date: June 30, 2012 11:10AM
Was there even a hint of competency?....
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Re: Long article about Fast and Furious
Posted by: RgrF
Date: July 02, 2012 01:22AM
Quote
$tevie
You can tell by the question that he didn't read the article.

Not enough pictures.
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Re: Long article about Fast and Furious
Posted by: max
Date: July 02, 2012 01:48AM
Quote
RgrF
Quote
$tevie
You can tell by the question that he didn't read the article.

Not enough pictures.
I am sure if you ask nicely, they will add some....
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