I cannot stand Charles Krauthammer and would normally gouge my eye out with a spoon before admitting a column he wrote was interesting. OW!

[www.washingtonpost.com]

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"Stop thinking about art works as objects, and start thinking about them as triggers for experiences." ~ Brian Eno

Here's some inside baseball on the decision:

[www.rawstory.com]

Apparently Roberts switched his opinion late in the game.

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Unpaid Social Liaison

It is and will be interesting to understand better why Roberts went this way. I tend to agree with that basic analysis. I will also say that I predicted that Roberts would do this in the prediction thread, before the decision came down, although I was guessing and hoping more than predicting.

I remember Roberts saying early-on that he wasn't going to stand for the typical 5-4 party vote.

Two good pieces $ & mick

The supreme court really has turned out to be quite an invention. History has shown many cases where the person left their ideology behind to put the court, the law and what is right first in making their decisions.

I admit that I didn't follow the story at all until the decision was rendered - it aint over until the fat lady sings...

This sounds more and more like a bunch of kids on the playground goading each other to pull another kid's hair (the hair belonging to 'we the people') and then denying that they did so.
Something as important as Healthcare should not be decided, as it is starting to seem this was, on a whim.


It's blindingly obvious that I was not bred into this system and hence find it hard to fathom, but I have some vague notion that it is in all our interests, from the top to the bottom of society, to have a citizenry that is both educated and healthy. To this end, one of the prime purposes of a government is to ensure that the people have free and easy access to healthcare and a good quality, well-rounded education. In simple terms that I can explain to my daughter, why does the American system not think like this?
The Texas republicans education thread from yesterday, and if what I am reading about how healthcare is commerce and not a necessary part of a functioning democracy, leaves me cold. How did both of what I consider to be the imperative roles of a government come to be farmed out to the highest bidder?
I expect scorn and ridicule from both sides (being as left is right and right is off the cliff), but please don't play the "it's just that way" or "or your so stupid that you just can't see it" games. It doesn't have to be any particular way and it's obvious to me that it isn't clear and distinct because even the highest court in the land can't make it's mind up without throwing the system into turmoil.

Thanks.

>>It's blindingly obvious that I was not bred into this system and hence find it hard to fathom,

many born here find it equally hard to fathom.

our government is both a tool to make our society more efficient and an expression of our values. we might not like to admit it but they frequently come into conflict.

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"How did both of what I consider to be the imperative roles of a government come to be farmed out to the highest bidder?"

I read a review on a book about the history of healthcare and it described the evolution of healthcare systems in both the US and UK.

In the US, wages freezes during the great depression caused some businesses to get creative in attracting talent - they included free health care as an incentive. And things morphed to where we are today...

The UK hospital system was nearly destroyed during the blitz and only the gov't had the means to set up a healthcare system. Things morphed to were we are today.

that's just the way it is...

tell your daughter that one long standing belief in the US is that government can't do anything right. That there is no incentive to produce a streamlined, efficient system where biz, on the other hand, through competition will create a better, more efficient system.

Everyone alive in the US was raised with this bit of indoctrination - it defines US (U.S.) versus the evil THEM (USSR).

Thanks both. I'll digest, read some, and be back with other, equally badly-informed thoughts.

"That there is no incentive to produce a streamlined, efficient system where biz, on the other hand, through competition will create a better, more efficient system."

Has that been shown to be the case? Everything I read suggests that America spends far more per head on health than the rest of the not-impoverished world, yet its population is no healthier for it.
When education and health are 'for profit' you can be damned sure that they don't mean for the benefit of those receiving them...it seems.

"In the US, wage freezes during the great depression caused some businesses to get creative in attracting talent - they included free health care as an incentive. And things morphed to where we are today..."
So do the Repugs want to return to the days of yore when each family did what it could in terms of staying healthy and being able to afford to visit the Doc's when needed? Is that what they mean by personal responsibility and less government intervention?

And why do Americans still mistrust the govt so hard? Why the assumption that business will better care for the needs of the people than the govt. that is (theoretically) elected by the people?

Thanks for pointing out the roots, but now that we are in the branches, so to speak, we are able to see that there are other trees, and that we aren't forced to stay in this one.

Avenger told me the other day that I can leave if I want to. Well, yes. But that's not helpful is it?

More questions...

The republican anti-healthcare movement is a recently created animal. Nixon was for universal healthcare and only a few years ago the republicans were weighing in on methods to create universal healthcare within a free enterprise system. They created romneycare which morphed into Obamacare. What has happened since is that the republican party has done two things:

1. Morphed into a party that cares only about seizing power by knocking the democrats out.

2. Created a powerful propaganda machine that can convince the masses to vote against their own self-interests.

The republican party of a couple of decades ago is gone. In its place is a group of powerful plutocrats controlling a powerful propaganda machine. They could give a whit about healthcare for the masses and are perfectly happy to turn against ideas created by their own party if it helps knock the democrats out of power.

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"So be proud to be a decent American instead of just a w'anker whipping up fear!" - Michael D. Higgins, President of Ireland

Which was why davester, I said this in parentheses earlier - 'being as left is right and right is off the cliff'!

The cliff being the one that the people in your number 2. can throw themselves off! And they have.

>>And why do Americans still mistrust the govt so hard? Why the assumption that business will better care for the needs of the people than the govt. that is (theoretically) elected by the people?

Why do americans love baseball and apple pie?

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davester
The republican anti-healthcare movement is a recently created animal. Nixon was for universal healthcare and only a few years ago the republicans were weighing in on methods to create universal healthcare within a free enterprise system. They created romneycare which morphed into Obamacare. What has happened since is that the republican party has done two things:

1. Morphed into a party that cares only about seizing power by knocking the democrats out.

2. Created a powerful propaganda machine that can convince the masses to vote against their own self-interests.

The republican party of a couple of decades ago is gone. In its place is a group of powerful plutocrats controlling a powerful propaganda machine. They could give a whit about healthcare for the masses and are perfectly happy to turn against ideas created by their own party if it helps knock the democrats out of power.

I'm so sad to have to chime in, "this is true."

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"Stop thinking about art works as objects, and start thinking about them as triggers for experiences." ~ Brian Eno

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davester
They created romneycare which morphed into Obamacare.

Would that be the connector section Dr Moffet worked on or the part Ted Kennedy worked on ?
There's a longer list of names and political affiliations that shaped all the pieces.
It didn't magically appear out of some drug infested bezerkly rabbit hole.

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norwegian wood reality TV

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billb
There's a longer list of names and political affiliations that shaped all the pieces.
It didn't magically appear out of some drug infested bezerkly rabbit hole.

The basic concept that underlies Obamacare was created by the Heritage Foundation. I'm surprised you don't know this.

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"So be proud to be a decent American instead of just a w'anker whipping up fear!" - Michael D. Higgins, President of Ireland

They are loving all things conservative.

The Heritage Foundation is so Reagan-era. Conservatives these days march to the beat of the Cato Institute, whose motto is "Screw you, I've got mine."

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Gutenberg
The Heritage Foundation is so Reagan-era. Conservatives these days march to the beat of the Cato Institute, whose motto is "Screw you, I've got mine."

It goes back way beyond Reagan. It actually goes back to corrupt Republican dominated government of the late 1800s and early 1900s. It took a Republican with a constituency beyond that of his party to put a brake on corporate rule. That was Teddy Roosevelt; the likelyhood a new day Teddy is on the horizon is pretty slim.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/29/2012 09:41PM by RgrF.

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hal
In the US, wages freezes during the great depression caused some businesses to get creative in attracting talent - they included free health care as an incentive. And things morphed to where we are today...

I believe it was actually WWII not the depression.

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davester
What has happened since is that the republican party has done two things:

1. Morphed into a party that cares only about seizing power by knocking the democrats out.

2. Created a powerful propaganda machine that can convince the masses to vote against their own self-interests.

The republican party of a couple of decades ago is gone. In its place is a group of powerful plutocrats controlling a powerful propaganda machine. They could give a whit about healthcare for the masses and are perfectly happy to turn against ideas created by their own party if it helps knock the democrats out of power.

davester, that is a remarkably eloquent and profound observation. Simply put, "that's a keeper!"

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The interesting part is that Democrats are similarly bought by those self same plutocrats, just not to the absolute degree as are current day Republicans and that's just not good enough for them.

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AllGold
davester, that is a remarkably eloquent and profound observation. Simply put, "that's a keeper!"

Glad you liked it. I aim to please.

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"So be proud to be a decent American instead of just a w'anker whipping up fear!" - Michael D. Higgins, President of Ireland

So please aim.

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AllGold

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hal
In the US, wages freezes during the great depression caused some businesses to get creative in attracting talent - they included free health care as an incentive. And things morphed to where we are today...

I believe it was actually WWII not the depression.

Blame FDR.

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Comedy Central: Best news channel that isn't a news channel.

Fox News: Best comedy channel that isn't a comedy channel.

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$tevie
I cannot stand Charles Krauthammer and would normally gouge my eye out with a spoon before admitting a column he wrote was interesting. OW!

[www.washingtonpost.com]

Nah, both Roberts and Krauthammer are wrong. We all access some form of healthcare sometime in our lives. Commerce clause all the way.

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Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.

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davester

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billb
There's a longer list of names and political affiliations that shaped all the pieces.
It didn't magically appear out of some drug infested bezerkly rabbit hole.

The basic concept that underlies Obamacare was created by the Heritage Foundation. I'm surprised you don't know this.

I'm quite aware of which part of Romneycare is influenced by Dr. Moffet and which parts are not. You really should investigate it rather than perpetuate the same old shop worn myths.

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[www.freethegrapes.org]

norwegian wood reality TV

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