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Let's go to the Cayman Islands!
Posted by: wowzer
Date: July 09, 2012 10:14AM
I can't wait to hear why Romney has an off-shore corporation in the Cayman Islands...

[www.washingtonpost.com]



I wish that we could hold a constitutional convention and re-write the constitution for the 21st century with electronic systems factored into governing. Then we can get rid of all these politicians who make their living off of dishonesty and half truths (Dems and Reps).



All I ever really needed to know, I learned from watching Star Trek.
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Re: Let's go to the Cayman Islands!
Posted by: mattkime
Date: July 09, 2012 10:22AM
It will be fascinating to hear the defense from the faithful



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Re: Let's go to the Cayman Islands!
Posted by: billb
Date: July 09, 2012 10:23AM
It is unclear how, if at all, Romney’s taxes were affected by the offshore arrangement.

Well, there's a smoking gun.



The Phorum Wall keeps us safe from illegal characters and words
The doorstep to the temple of wisdom is the knowledge of one's own ignorance. -Benjamin Franklin
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Re: Let's go to the Cayman Islands!
Posted by: $tevie
Date: July 09, 2012 10:43AM
I think it shows poor judgment and/or a bit of "living in a bubble" on Romney's part.

However, this was a big story back in January and I think it's already been shown that there wasn't anything hinky, but merely tone deaf, going on.



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Re: Let's go to the Cayman Islands!
Posted by: Pam
Date: July 09, 2012 10:49AM
Quote
$tevie
I think it shows poor judgment and/or a bit of "living in a bubble" on Romney's part.

However, this was a big story back in January and I think it's already been shown that there wasn't anything hinky, but merely tone deaf, going on.

I think so too. Legal, but "hinky". The wealthy and corporations will do whatever is legal to save tax dollars. The question is should those loopholes be closed and should a candidate for president be utilizing these types of loopholes.
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Re: Let's go to the Cayman Islands!
Posted by: cbelt3
Date: July 09, 2012 10:55AM
I'm SO tired of the attack ads from the various campaigns. Can President Obama please explain how he will 'move forward' ?

I'll also diffidently point out that a businessperson that fails to take proper legal advantage of the US Tax Code is considered ....



an idiot. And should be fired by their board and shareholders.

So Bain is a good business, and Romney is a good businessperson. Let's see the concept here:

1- Bain makes money.
2- Bain complies with US Laws.
3- Bain is therefore EVIL and BAD.

Nope. Doesn't make sense.

</Sarcasm>
Maybe when you get to declare Obama King For LIfe he can simply issue a decree that makes such practices illegal, and send all the offending capitalists off to the guillotines. Well, except for the ones that support the Democratic Party.
</Sarcasm/>
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Re: Let's go to the Cayman Islands!
Posted by: Pam
Date: July 09, 2012 11:01AM
Quote
cbelt3
I'm SO tired of the attack ads from the various campaigns. Can President Obama please explain how he will 'move forward' ?

I'll also diffidently point out that a businessperson that fails to take proper legal advantage of the US Tax Code is considered ....



an idiot. And should be fired by their board and shareholders.

So Bain is a good business, and Romney is a good businessperson. Let's see the concept here:

1- Bain makes money.
2- Bain complies with US Laws.
3- Bain is therefore EVIL and BAD.

Nope. Doesn't make sense.

</Sarcasm>
Maybe when you get to declare Obama King For LIfe he can simply issue a decree that makes such practices illegal, and send all the offending capitalists off to the guillotines. Well, except for the ones that support the Democratic Party.
</Sarcasm/>

I agree with what you are saying, however it is tough for people who lost jobs so Bain/Romney could make money. With unemployment being what it is, would the "patriotic" thing to do entail holding off on such sales? It is difficult to reconcile the "right" to make money or shelter tax money with Romney saying that as president he will turn the economy around and lower unemployment. Business decisions do not always improve the economy or jobs. Although they do improve some bank accounts.
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Re: Let's go to the Cayman Islands!
Posted by: $tevie
Date: July 09, 2012 11:06AM
Since Romney's schtick is that as a businessman he has the acumen to turn the economy around, it is legitimate to dig around to learn exactly what sort of businessman he is and where his priorities lie.



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Re: Let's go to the Cayman Islands!
Posted by: cbelt3
Date: July 09, 2012 11:09AM
Pam-
That's all in the past. He was CEO of Bain from 1991 to 1992. Back when Barack Obama was teaching Law in Chicago, as a newly minted Harvard Law graduate.

And we've covered Bain job losses. Bain bought failing businesses. Obama's campaign is trying to make Bain sound personally responsible for every unemployed person's job loss. When in fact:

1: Romney had nothing to do with anyone losing a job through Bain since 1992.
2: Businesses Bain bought would have died anyway due to mismanagement or business conditions.

It's all mudslinging, and the mud is quite unlinked to Mr. Romney. Unfortunately it's working.

I despise lies and misdirection in political campaigns. It seems like that's all that the Obama campaign has. Where's the Hope ? Where's the Moving Forward?

The Obama campaign is fighting from a weak position. That's not good for it.
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Re: Let's go to the Cayman Islands!
Posted by: decay
Date: July 09, 2012 11:11AM
RE: Bain...

[www.factcheck.org]

As we reported before, private-equity firms are designed to create profits for investors, not necessarily jobs. A widely cited study released last year by the National Bureau of Economic Research reviewed private-equity transactions from 1980 to 2005 — tracking 3,200 firms and their 150,000 establishments — to assess the impact on jobs. It concluded that, in general, private-equity firms have “only a modest net impact on employment.”

more Bain clarifications: (many point out Obama's distortions)
[www.factcheck.org]



---
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Re: Let's go to the Cayman Islands!
Posted by: Pam
Date: July 09, 2012 11:13AM
Quote
cbelt3
Pam-
That's all in the past. He was CEO of Bain from 1991 to 1992. Back when Barack Obama was teaching Law in Chicago, as a newly minted Harvard Law graduate.

And we've covered Bain job losses. Bain bought failing businesses. Obama's campaign is trying to make Bain sound personally responsible for every unemployed person's job loss. When in fact:

1: Romney had nothing to do with anyone losing a job through Bain since 1992.
2: Businesses Bain bought would have died anyway due to mismanagement or business conditions.

It's all mudslinging, and the mud is quite unlinked to Mr. Romney. Unfortunately it's working.

I despise lies and misdirection in political campaigns. It seems like that's all that the Obama campaign has. Where's the Hope ? Where's the Moving Forward?

The Obama campaign is fighting from a weak position. That's not good for it.

Come on, be fair. It's not like Romney doesn't have deceptive ads out there. But that's beside the point of this topic. What should people think about a presidential candidate having off shore tax shelters. What should people think about businessmen who don't grow and build?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/09/2012 11:15AM by Pam.
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Re: Let's go to the Cayman Islands!
Posted by: $tevie
Date: July 09, 2012 11:15AM
Personally, I am glad that the Obama campaign is going to apply the same damned tactics that the GOP uses. It would be nice if campaigns weren't run this way, but it was pie-in-the-sky for the Democrats to sit around twiddling their thumbs while the GOP came up with Swift Boats and Birth Certificates etc. Screw'em.







Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/09/2012 11:15AM by $tevie.
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Re: Let's go to the Cayman Islands!
Posted by: wowzer
Date: July 09, 2012 11:17AM
Quote
Pam
Come on, be fair. It's not like Romney doesn't have deceptive ads out there. But that's beside the point of this topic. What should people think about a presidential candidate having off shore tax shelters. What should people think about businessmen who don't grow and build?


Ah..that's better---back on track. What should we think about business folks with offshore tax shelters? I don't believe that most of us have these, why should they be allowed?



All I ever really needed to know, I learned from watching Star Trek.
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Re: Let's go to the Cayman Islands!
Posted by: $tevie
Date: July 09, 2012 11:20AM
The problem is that this was proven back in January to not be an offshore tax shelter, so please take that into account as you discuss it.



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Re: Let's go to the Cayman Islands!
Posted by: Pam
Date: July 09, 2012 11:22AM
Quote
$tevie
The problem is that this was proven back in January to not be an offshore tax shelter, so please take that into account as you discuss it.

What was it?
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Re: Let's go to the Cayman Islands!
Posted by: $tevie
Date: July 09, 2012 11:25AM
Re: Let's go to the Cayman Islands!
Posted by: Avenger
Date: July 09, 2012 11:59AM
>> it is tough for people GM dealerships who lost jobs so Bain/Romney GM could make money. <<
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Re: Let's go to the Cayman Islands!
Posted by: Avenger
Date: July 09, 2012 12:01PM
>>only a modest net impact on employment.”<<

Net to me means positive. You just nuked your argument.
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Re: Let's go to the Cayman Islands!
Posted by: decay
Date: July 09, 2012 12:20PM
Quote
Avenger
>>only a modest net impact on employment.”<<

Net to me means positive. You just nuked your argument.

it could mean positive or negative. you are seeing it how you want.

and i don't have a strong position on this - you'll see i clearly mention fact checks that point out distortion on the Obama side.



---
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Re: Let's go to the Cayman Islands!
Posted by: Pam
Date: July 09, 2012 12:44PM
Quote
Avenger
>> it is tough for people GM dealerships who lost jobs so Bain/Romney GM could make money. <<

Yes it was. Free market forces did not determine who closed and who stayed open. Good dealerships suffered for bad management decisions.

As for Bain... [www.politifact.com]
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Re: Let's go to the Cayman Islands!
Posted by: swampy
Date: July 09, 2012 12:51PM
Bain was investing _private_ money not tax payer money into businesses. Their goal was to make a profit. They made more than they lost by a long shot and you as a tax payer did not suffer any loss (Solyndra)

As for off shore accounts. So what? It's not illegal. It's usually a smart business decision.

As for job creation... MA was 50th in job creation when Romney became governor and he moved them up to 28th by the time he lef officet. Since the 2010 election, 17 Republican governors have lowered their state's unemployment numbers.



If you don't stand for something, you'll probably fall for anything.t
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Re: Let's go to the Cayman Islands!
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: July 09, 2012 12:59PM
Romney's record on job growth while Governor of Massachusetts:

"The more legitimate criticism of Gov. Romney’s job creation record is that total payroll employment growth lagged far behind the experience of the rest of the country." For 2002 to 2006, the national growth rate was 5.2 percent, while Massachusetts’ rate was just .7 percent."

Private sector job growth under Gov. Romney was .79 percent, but state jobs grew 4.73% under Romney.
So as President would he increase the federal payroll at six times the rate of private sector job growth? Because that's his actual record.

[www.politifact.com]
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Re: Let's go to the Cayman Islands!
Posted by: Pam
Date: July 09, 2012 12:59PM
Quote
swampy
Bain was investing _private_ money not tax payer money into businesses. Their goal was to make a profit. They made more than they lost by a long shot and you as a tax payer did not suffer any loss (Solyndra)

As for off shore accounts. So what? It's not illegal. It's usually a smart business decision.

As for job creation... MA was 50th in job creation when Romney became governor and he moved them up to 28th by the time he lef officet. Since the 2010 election, 17 Republican governors have lowered their state's unemployment numbers.

Correct, except the part giving Romney credit [www.politifact.com]

And not about Bain. The federal gov't had to step in to deal with under funded pensions.
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Re: Let's go to the Cayman Islands!
Posted by: Avenger
Date: July 09, 2012 01:39PM
>>Yes it was. Free market forces did not determine who closed and who stayed open. Good dealerships suffered for bad management decisions.<<

I can't tell if you are celebrating free market or condemning it, or may be that is the whole point. Not unlike Obama himself.
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Re: Let's go to the Cayman Islands!
Posted by: swampy
Date: July 09, 2012 02:35PM
Pam, the federal government did not _have_ to step in. GM's under funded pension situation was no worse than Ford's. Obama was just propping up his Union buddies. Ford didn't bite.



If you don't stand for something, you'll probably fall for anything.t
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Re: Let's go to the Cayman Islands!
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: July 09, 2012 02:40PM
Quote
swampy
Pam, the federal government did not _have_ to step in. GM's under funded pension situation was no worse than Ford's. Obama was just propping up his Union buddies. Ford didn't bite.

The pension was not the sole problem, the entire company was facing bankruptcy and NO private investors were willing to lend it more money.
GM would have been dismantled and sold for parts.

GM is successful today thanks to the government bailout.
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Re: Let's go to the Cayman Islands!
Posted by: Pam
Date: July 09, 2012 02:57PM
Quote
swampy
Pam, the federal government did not _have_ to step in. GM's under funded pension situation was no worse than Ford's. Obama was just propping up his Union buddies. Ford didn't bite.

I was referring to you bringing up Solyndra. When Bain closed the plants the feds did step in because of under funded pensions. Bain did not walk away squeaky clean as you allude.
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Re: Let's go to the Cayman Islands!
Posted by: Avenger
Date: July 09, 2012 03:18PM
Quote
Lemon Drop
Quote
swampy
Pam, the federal government did not _have_ to step in. GM's under funded pension situation was no worse than Ford's. Obama was just propping up his Union buddies. Ford didn't bite.

GM would have been dismantled and sold for parts.

Airlines have been in bankruptcy forever. They are still in one piece and even if they are not, they are around in other forms. BTW, by all accounts investment in GM has been a money loser. GM closed today at $20.22. It needs to be $55 to get your money back. Why isn't it?
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Re: Let's go to the Cayman Islands!
Posted by: Spock
Date: July 09, 2012 03:24PM
Quote
cbelt3

1: Romney had nothing to do with anyone losing a job through Bain since 1992.

Belty, so from 1992 to February 1999 when Romney took a leave of absence from Bain Capital to serve as CEO of the 2002 Salt Lake City Olympic Games Organizing Committee, you give him a pass. Really?






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Re: Let's go to the Cayman Islands!
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: July 09, 2012 03:27PM
The airlines were bailed out by Uncle Sam post 9/11, as I'm sure you recall.

I'll get my crystal ball and let everyone know what GM's stock price will be in a year, or five. Stay tuned.
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Re: Let's go to the Cayman Islands!
Posted by: Avenger
Date: July 09, 2012 04:04PM
Don't bring 9/11 in to this. Their entire fleet was grounded . GM went broke in the normal course of their operations. As a condition of bail out, which by the way was not the term back then, the government received stocks under market value so they made money.
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Re: Let's go to the Cayman Islands!
Posted by: john dough
Date: July 09, 2012 04:45PM
No sense arguing with someone who does not accept facts. Pam and LD, you are wasting your time with the trolls.
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Re: Let's go to the Cayman Islands!
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: July 09, 2012 05:13PM
Quote
Avenger
Don't bring 9/11 in to this. Their entire fleet was grounded . GM went broke in the normal course of their operations. As a condition of bail out, which by the way was not the term back then, the government received stocks under market value so they made money.

Ha, not so much.

[www.cbsnews.com]
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Re: Let's go to the Cayman Islands!
Posted by: Avenger
Date: July 09, 2012 05:17PM
Are you arguing against bail outs?
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Re: Let's go to the Cayman Islands!
Posted by: RgrF
Date: July 09, 2012 09:54PM
The point behind all this is to create pressure on Romney to release all his tax returns. Something every other candidate of recent vintage, going back to and including his own father, has done.

He's fiercely resisting for now but may yet have to cave. The idea that he could win the Presidency while withholding so much personal financial information is unique for current presidential politics.
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Re: Let's go to the Cayman Islands!
Posted by: Avenger
Date: July 09, 2012 11:04PM
How many jobs does that create?
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Re: Let's go to the Cayman Islands!
Posted by: RgrF
Date: July 10, 2012 01:03AM
Re: Let's go to the Cayman Islands!
Posted by: freeradical
Date: July 10, 2012 09:19AM
Please note line 7a.

[www.irs.gov]

If we know about this, I'm sure the IRS does...
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Re: Let's go to the Cayman Islands!
Posted by: swampy
Date: July 10, 2012 01:11PM
Yeah, Romney, release all your tax records so Obama can call you a rich SOB again. Maybe O could release his college transcripts too.



If you don't stand for something, you'll probably fall for anything.t
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Re: Let's go to the Cayman Islands!
Posted by: $tevie
Date: July 10, 2012 01:59PM
Swampy, what are you trying to say? That Obama graduated magna @#$%& laude from Harvard by some sort of deceptive practice? And that every student in his graduating class went along with it without complaint? Why? Were they too busy printing fake birth certificates to notice?



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Re: Let's go to the Cayman Islands!
Posted by: swampy
Date: July 10, 2012 03:22PM
Oh goodie!! $tevie has seen his transcripts!!! Can you post a link? Did you happen to see who sponsored his scholarship? Rumor has it that he claimed to be Kenyan so he could get a slot in the diversity alotment. Guess he was afraid that if he claimed his white mother he'd have to pay his own way.

I guess you believe that Obama was the first person of color to head up the Harvard Law Review too?



If you don't stand for something, you'll probably fall for anything.t
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Re: Let's go to the Cayman Islands!
Posted by: $tevie
Date: July 10, 2012 03:33PM
Do you NOT KNOW what "graduated magna @#$%& laude" means, exactly?



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Re: Let's go to the Cayman Islands!
Posted by: Avenger
Date: July 10, 2012 03:47PM
Quote
$tevie
Do you NOT KNOW what "graduated magna @#$%& laude" means, exactly?

For you to say that you must have seen his diploma. Have you? Has anybody?
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Re: Let's go to the Cayman Islands!
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: July 10, 2012 03:55PM
Transcripts are the new birth certificate.

Meanwhile, how 'bout those tax returns?
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Re: Let's go to the Cayman Islands!
Posted by: August West
Date: July 10, 2012 04:04PM
Re: Let's go to the Cayman Islands!
Posted by: Dennis S
Date: July 10, 2012 04:04PM
Quote
$tevie
Do you NOT KNOW what "graduated magna @#$%& laude" means, exactly?

swampy, I have a question for you: Did you graduate?
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Re: Let's go to the Cayman Islands!
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: July 10, 2012 04:14PM
If anyone is curious, graduating "magna @#$%& laude" from Harvard Law school means you are in the top 10% of the class. Many years nobody qualifies for the higher honor of "summa @#$%& laude," at the most that's one or two students a year, out of 500.
Mitt Romney was in the top half of his class at HLS, so he didn't do as well as Obama, although he did very well at Harvard Business School where he was in the joint JD/MBA program.

So both men were very good students and leaders in graduate school, I don't think we need to question that. They are remembered that way by professors and peers.
What I care about now is what they want to do with those smarts and how it will affect our country and my family.


[www.law.harvard.edu]
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Re: Let's go to the Cayman Islands!
Posted by: $tevie
Date: July 10, 2012 04:30PM
More importantly, for Swampy at least, honors are announced at commencement -- which means there were 527 students and their families and friends who watched Obama walk, and yet not one of them has ever complained that he was unfairly awarded the honor -- not even those outspoken classmates who are on the record as not voting for him and not wanting him to be re-elected.



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Re: Let's go to the Cayman Islands!
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: July 10, 2012 04:33PM
Quote
$tevie
More importantly, for Swampy at least, honors are announced at commencement -- which means there were 527 students and their families and friends who watched Obama walk, and yet not one of them has ever complained that he was unfairly awarded the honor -- not even those outspoken classmates who are on the record as not voting for him and not wanting him to be re-elected.

Yes, it's also printed in the graduation program, which no doubt a lot of people have as a keepsake. Would be so easy to disprove it were not true.
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Re: Let's go to the Cayman Islands!
Posted by: $tevie
Date: July 10, 2012 04:46PM
Quote
Lemon Drop
Quote
$tevie
More importantly, for Swampy at least, honors are announced at commencement -- which means there were 527 students and their families and friends who watched Obama walk, and yet not one of them has ever complained that he was unfairly awarded the honor -- not even those outspoken classmates who are on the record as not voting for him and not wanting him to be re-elected.

Yes, it's also printed in the graduation program, which no doubt a lot of people have as a keepsake. Would be so easy to disprove it were not true.
Thanks, I forgot that part!



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