I've been wondering more about the video of the 71 year old man in Florida who shot at robbers trying to stick up an Internet Cafe there. Sure there's lots of internet coverage from right wing websites and media but I cannot seem to find anything about it on CNN.com.

Does anyone have a CNN.com link to this story?

If CNN posted a story about every shooting that happened in Florida, there would be no room for any other news.

---

Unpaid Social Liaison

Does it have to be CNN?
[abcnews.go.com]
[www.washingtonpost.com]

---

"Stop thinking about art works as objects, and start thinking about them as triggers for experiences." ~ Brian Eno

Why CNN?

Here it is on The Guardian's website, a left-leaning British newspaper, The Washington Post, and Huffington Post, hardly part of the "right wing media."

[www.guardian.co.uk]

[www.washingtonpost.com]

[www.huffingtonpost.com]

I saw that when it was first on news sites and all I could think was "Please, someone tell me that the guy was trying to miss hitting the robbers."

Because it's not an important story beyond that local news market.

---

[www.flickr.com] [picasaweb.google.com]

Lemon Drop-

CNN because it's one of the first news sources I go to on the Internet.

And since I notice so many people on this forum bashing on FoxNews for biased journalism, it certainly seems to me that the absence of a person using a firearm to defend himself and his fellow citizens strikes the same chord as the "bias" of FoxNews.

Nice to see coverage on other media outlets though.

And thanks to everyone for the links!

Quote
Pam
I saw that when it was first on news sites and all I could think was "Please, someone tell me that the guy was trying to miss hitting the robbers."

Me too. He was 10' feet or less away and popped off quite a few rounds. Those kids may have been hit, but if they'd had the balls they definitely could have kept on fighting.
Actually, in retrospect, it was lucky that they did run. Because if they had fought back then people could easily have started dieing.
The old man appeared to shoot first- if they had shot back, could they have claimed self defense?

No, it would be very difficult for the perpetrators to claim self-defense as they were the ones who opened the threat with lethal weapons. Each person in the cafe had every right to think their lives were in jeopardy.

The old man was wise in his use of his handgun and in his decision to limit pursuit to the premises. Once they got out the door, he stopped. Had he continued then there could be grounds for charges against the old man.

But since you asked, I'm curious. What if this had happened in Portland? Let's say one afternoon you and your family are hanging out, drinking coffee at the Stumptown on SE Belmont. Two robbers come in with handguns and shake the place down. None of the patrons has a weapon to combat the robbers. The robbers are nervous and the shake down is taking longer than they thought, so they start getting nervous - I mean people are scared, they're slow to pull out their money and Belmont is a busy street and they've only got a little time to get away. The robbers are scared themselves, someone walks in, they're startled and the robbers start shooting. A member of your family is hit. You're now a victim of a crime by robbers who are eventually caught - they've got criminal records and its learned that they purchased their guns on the black market. What would be your stance on the issues then?

Quote
Manlove
if they had shot back, could they have claimed self defense?

As a general rule, you can't invoke self-defense in the commission of a violent crime.

>>But since you asked, I'm curious. What if this had happened in Portland?

Nice story, but its nothing more than that.

Mac, essentially the same as they are now- that no one benefits by having firearms freely available to anyone who wants one.

In the scenario you draw, well, I dunno. I would try to do anything I could to alleviate matters which might range from talking to them, to biting one of their noses off.
The problem I have with guns is that lets assume the two kids in this video don't get caught and are in fact stupid enough to continue their new careers as thieves and robbers, even though they fail miserably in the aptitude department. So next time they go out to work, they realise that they need a bigger, faster shooting gun, because last time they got owned by Grandpa and his peashooter (I assume it wasn't avenger's .38, because if one of those kids was hit with a gun like that there would have been more pieces of kid around than I saw). Grandpa's shooter is now inadequate so survivors of the next shooting arm themselves with (eg) Uzi's. etc etc etc.
Mutually Assured Destruction.

Mac, that's why in the other thread I asked that no one inadvertently shoot me or my family. There's not much I could do about it if the situation arose. Like I said, I'd do what I could. I've been threatened with a knife before, but never a gun. I've been punched and kicked a few times, but again, I never thought that my life was in danger, just that I was on the receiving end of a good kicking!
I know fists and to an extent, knives, They are personal. Guns are not. They are indiscriminate, unless held in the hand of someone highly trained, and even then they can malfunction.

Would I thank the old guy if I was there, certainly.
But that doesn't change my feelings about guns.

First, it was posted on CNN on july 17 [www.cnn.com]

SO skip the lamestream media nonsense...

Second, it's insane to think that this old guy was doing more good than harm. Note that he pulled the trigger at least 6 times - sometimes within 7' of his target and MISSED every time. It's lucky, VERY lucky that no innocent bystanders were injured.

Quote
hal
First, it was posted on CNN on july 17 [www.cnn.com]

SO skip the lamestream media nonsense...

Second, it's insane to think that this old guy was doing more good than harm. Note that he pulled the trigger at least 6 times - sometimes within 7' of his target and MISSED every time. It's lucky, VERY lucky that no innocent bystanders were injured.

I would like to nominate this thread for one of the dumbest ever started on the political side. Thinly-veiled-agenda FAIL.

---

MR/F Guestmap: [www.mapservices.org]

I've been in two different establishments that were held up. The first time we ordered to lie on the floor by two men with hand guns. The second time we were ordered to look down at the table by two men with sawed-off shotguns and their young accomplice, who emptied the registers upstairs and down while the armed men kept guard on us. No heroics, no panicking robbers, no bullets fired, nobody got in their way and they left. Of course that isn't how it always goes down but I just thought I'd mention my experiences.

I did witness a man shoot his ex-lover to death once. He was mad at her.

---

"Stop thinking about art works as objects, and start thinking about them as triggers for experiences." ~ Brian Eno

Quote
Black

Quote
hal
First, it was posted on CNN on july 17 [www.cnn.com]

SO skip the lamestream media nonsense...

Second, it's insane to think that this old guy was doing more good than harm. Note that he pulled the trigger at least 6 times - sometimes within 7' of his target and MISSED every time. It's lucky, VERY lucky that no innocent bystanders were injured.

I would like to nominate this thread for one of the dumbest ever started on the political side. Thinly-veiled-agenda FAIL.

But at least we know CNN has room for the news
Now if only they would cease inventing it so very often .....

---

[www.freethegrapes.org]

norwegian wood reality TV

[www.youtube.com]

>> if they'd had the balls they definitely could have kept on fighting.<<

You sound disappointed. Having carefully constructed beliefs destroyed in a minute must hurt.

>>And thanks to everyone for the links!<<

Look down a few threads. I posted it under an NRA-staged show! In 2 minutes the old man deconstructed 50 years of anti-gun propaganda. Local interest, my foot.

>> In 2 minutes the old man deconstructed 50 years of anti-gun propaganda.

Exactly! Why can't people see that this proves your point and ignore everything that doesn't?

---

Quote
Avenger
>> if they'd had the balls they definitely could have kept on fighting.<<

You sound disappointed. Having carefully constructed beliefs destroyed in a minute must hurt.

You really are a deranged man aren't you?
I have never in my life spoken to someone who feeds more on (the perception) of other people's pain. The word schadenfreude was made for you. I personally feel no hurt, but you are happy because you think I do.
What a sad life you lead.
The World is less pleasant for having you in it.

Manlove-
I wasn't expecting to change your mind with the scenario. And while I'm not looking at the video currently, from my recollection, I thought the handgun looked like a smaller weapon. As for myself, one of the guns I used to carry was a SigSauer P230 .380 caliber pistol - which is a similar round to the .38. It's an effective weapon but doesn't have the stopping power of the larger .40. And the old man looked to have a gun of similar disposition.

The old man did what he thought was proper: protecting himself. The perpetrators immediately backed down and ran away because their threat was matched and trumped (by the old man opening fire on them).

As this video shows, most combat situations happen within 25 feet. However, sitting back at home watching an old man missing targets "seven feet" away is far different than being the actual person shooting the weapon. Adrenaline plus the fact that you're scared and under duress is a situation that makes shooting a moving target a difficult one. Add to the fact that while people may think beforehand that shooting another human is "easy", it is not.

Truth is, most average people (and gun owners) have no real desire to shoot anyone, much less kill them.

As to the criminals having not enough balls to continue fighting, this is really what you don't want: a protracted gun battle. Certainly it happens, but it was a good thing these criminals didn't have the "balls" to continue.

And while part of me agrees with you in the notion that one should meet a force with greater force (don't bring a knife to a gun fight), a well-placed shot from a lowly .38 will take out an adversary with a .308.

In this particular situation, the old man got the jump on the criminals. They certainly were not expecting an armed resistance and when the old man opened fire on them, they were caught surprised and retreated. Under the typical anti-gun thinking, the old man should have gone bezerk, shooting wildly and chasing down the criminals, creating an even more dangerous scenario. But if you watch the video, the old man remains composed despite the conditions, and in control. He opened fire, advanced and pursued only to the doorway where he ceased fire after the criminals had left the building. In many respects, this turned out to be the ideal scenario.

Unlike $tevie, I'm lucky in that I've never been in situations like his and I certainly hope no one has to endure that kind of experience - though I have been in a situation that required me to draw my weapon. Unpleasant and I hope to never revisit that again. Actually, the only time I've ever faced the muzzle of a gun was at the hands of law enforcement when they mistook our vehicle for that of a criminal. Another unpleasant experience where I had laser dots on our heads and wondered if they were going to actually shoot us.

And to Hal, I did a search on CNN for "Old man florida internet cafe shooting" and it didn't come up with the link you provided, hence my question. In fact, here's the link to my search:
[www.cnn.com]

Maybe the older man missed because he really didn't want to hit anyone.

>>As to the criminals having not enough balls to continue fighting, this is really what you don't want:<<

That is what I meant. His tone, which he now denies, carries an unmistakable feel of disappointment, basically wishing they had more balls to face down the old man so he could come here and say more guns means more bloodshed.

Quote
Mac-A-Matic
Manlove-
I wasn't expecting to change your mind with the scenario. And while I'm not looking at the video currently, from my recollection, I thought the handgun looked like a smaller weapon. As for myself, one of the guns I used to carry was a SigSauer P230 .380 caliber pistol - which is a similar round to the .38. It's an effective weapon but doesn't have the stopping power of the larger .40. And the old man looked to have a gun of similar disposition.

The old man did what he thought was proper: protecting himself. The perpetrators immediately backed down and ran away because their threat was matched and trumped (by the old man opening fire on them).

I'm sorry, but it's utterly ridiculous that you'd rather base your opinions on fuzzy memories of what occurred in this video rather than take 45 seconds to watch it again. The 71 year-old came running from a back corner of the café to shoot him up some robbers-- theoretically he may have protected someone, or something, but it's just plain wrong to go on about how he was "protecting himself." You're about 70% out of focus on the rest of the details of this video.

---

MR/F Guestmap: [www.mapservices.org]

I hope I am not around you when someone assaults the cafe.

Quote
Sam3
Maybe the older man missed because he really didn't want to hit anyone.

He didn't miss, he hit both of them.

Quote
Avenger
I hope I am not around you when someone assaults the cafe.

What is this supposed to mean? You clearly know zilch about firearms, and the pathetic thing is you actually don't care one bit about gun laws/gun rights but are entertaining a fantasy that Rush would be pleased with you for your valiant fight and give you a tasty @#$%&.

---

MR/F Guestmap: [www.mapservices.org]

You heard me.

Quote
Avenger
>>As to the criminals having not enough balls to continue fighting, this is really what you don't want:<<

That is what I meant. His tone, which he now denies, carries an unmistakable feel of disappointment, basically wishing they had more balls to face down the old man so he could come here and say more guns means more bloodshed.

Wish fulfillment on your part old chap.
You make up utter crap and then pass it off as meaning something. Such a prat.

Quote
Mac-A-Matic
I've been wondering more about the video of the 71 year old man in Florida who shot at robbers trying to stick up an Internet Cafe there. Sure there's lots of internet coverage from right wing websites and media but I cannot seem to find anything about it on CNN.com.

Does anyone have a CNN.com link to this story?

This is more a train wreck than an exchange of ideas or discussion on the merits. If media coverage is important to you, discuss it. Disparaging others before you've heard what they have to say puts you squarely in the FOX, MSNBC listenership profile.

The premise that our news choices are "FOX" or "CNN" was disturbing and untrue. Being without cable I watch neither and I believe I am probably better off for it.

---

"Stop thinking about art works as objects, and start thinking about them as triggers for experiences." ~ Brian Eno

Quote
Black

Quote
Mac-A-Matic
Manlove-
I wasn't expecting to change your mind with the scenario. And while I'm not looking at the video currently, from my recollection, I thought the handgun looked like a smaller weapon. As for myself, one of the guns I used to carry was a SigSauer P230 .380 caliber pistol - which is a similar round to the .38. It's an effective weapon but doesn't have the stopping power of the larger .40. And the old man looked to have a gun of similar disposition.

The old man did what he thought was proper: protecting himself. The perpetrators immediately backed down and ran away because their threat was matched and trumped (by the old man opening fire on them).

I'm sorry, but it's utterly ridiculous that you'd rather base your opinions on fuzzy memories of what occurred in this video rather than take 45 seconds to watch it again. The 71 year-old came running from a back corner of the café to shoot him up some robbers-- theoretically he may have protected someone, or something, but it's just plain wrong to go on about how he was "protecting himself." You're about 70% out of focus on the rest of the details of this video.

Black-

Since you actually quoted what I wrote, it just seems ridiculous to me that you are unable to discern that my "fuzziness" regarding the video had to do with actual firearm held by the old man rather than the details of the shooting.

But really, you're just trying to antagonize a situation in which you do not agree. Never understood that about you.

Quote
RgrF

Quote
Mac-A-Matic
I've been wondering more about the video of the 71 year old man in Florida who shot at robbers trying to stick up an Internet Cafe there. Sure there's lots of internet coverage from right wing websites and media but I cannot seem to find anything about it on CNN.com.

Does anyone have a CNN.com link to this story?

This is more a train wreck than an exchange of ideas or discussion on the merits. If media coverage is important to you, discuss it. Disparaging others before you've heard what they have to say puts you squarely in the FOX, MSNBC listenership profile.

RgrF-
Clearly, you are an example of projecting whatever your agenda is rather than what is at hand. Since you actually quoted me, I'm still trying to figure out how you derived at your conclusion that I'm supposedly "disparaging others".

Hallmark example of what has become liberal paranoia - which, to me, is just as weird and creepy as those Tea Party types.

Quote

And since I notice so many people on this forum bashing on FoxNews for biased journalism, it certainly seems to me that the absence of a person using a firearm to defend himself and his fellow citizens strikes the same chord as the "bias" of FoxNews.

It appears to me that your notion of bias in CNN has been proven incorrect. My supposition is that demonstrating such a bias was your agenda for this thread and that Black was correct in stating,

Quote

I would like to nominate this thread for one of the dumbest ever started on the political side. Thinly-veiled-agenda FAIL.

I think this supposition is further demonstrated by your overreaching accusations that Black is trying to antagonize a situation, which, in fact, was little more than a blatant attempt by you to antagonize those with whom you differ politically.

Quote

It appears to me that your notion of bias in CNN has been proven incorrect. My supposition is that demonstrating such a bias was your agenda for this thread and that Black was correct in stating,

Interestingly enough in your reach to paint me, you ignored this post:

Quote
Mac-A-Matic
And to Hal, I did a search on CNN for "Old man florida internet cafe shooting" and it didn't come up with the link you provided, hence my question. In fact, here's the link to my search:
[www.cnn.com]

But let's take it even further. I started my search for the video because the links in the other thread had been removed, so I searched Google and didn't find any link to the video on CNN. I even recreated the search just a few moments ago:

[www.google.com]

Even today with that search, there's no CNN link on the first two pages. So I posted this thread because I figured that this is the bastion of liberal think that I participate in and someone would have an answer - and someone did provide a link.

The fact that you two want to posit that I've got some agenda running is just Liberal Paranoia.

Quote

I think this supposition is further demonstrated by your overreaching accusations that Black is trying to antagonize a situation, which, in fact, was little more than a blatant attempt by you to antagonize those with whom you differ politically.

Then I'll just color you black...

Especially since you don't know my politics.

Quote

Interestingly enough in your reach to paint me, you ignored this post:

Because that quote is irrelevant. Hiding behind a veil of inadequate internet searching skills is not convincing. I went to CNN's video page and found the video in about 30 seconds.

Quote

Especially since you don't know my politics.

I don't need to know your politics to understand that you had an agenda; you stated it in your own words. Nice try at a distraction, however, it does not refute my supposition.

August-

I've stated my position very clearly. You can believe whatever you want to believe. It does not bother me in the least.

Quote

I've stated my position very clearly.

Indeed, which is why I felt compelled to point out that your attacks on others seemed an inordinate reaction based on the very shaky ground of your position.

Quote

It does not bother me in the least.

I'm happy we're cool.

>>Even today with that search, there's no CNN link on the first two pages. So I posted this thread because I figured that this is the bastion of liberal think that I participate in and someone would have an answer - and someone did provide a link.<<

This is the LAST place you should look for a thread of this type. Now, if the old man had missed and 5 people were killed, it would be posted at 3am. They saw with your own eyes how half a dozen people were saved by someone carrying a gun and still say it is a bad idea. Of course, they weren't there so that might have something to do with it.

Ssh! Avenger, you'll be okay when the meds kick in.