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Racists Suck
Posted by: August West
Date: July 28, 2012 05:46PM
SFGate

Human evolution is very slow. I'm often amazed and saddened by the existence of this behavior.
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Re: Racists Suck
Posted by: hal
Date: July 28, 2012 06:13PM
That was a story right out of the 1960s...

I'm glad at least that some church members spoke their outrage...
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Re: Racists Suck
Posted by: SDGuy
Date: July 28, 2012 06:16PM
"...the pastor should have stood up to the members who didn't want the couple to marry in the church."

agree smiley
Sure, the Pastor was put in a difficult position, but my take is that he should have given them an opportunity to rethink their stance and then booted their a**es out of his congregation if they were adament...
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Re: Racists Suck
Posted by: cbelt3
Date: July 28, 2012 07:36PM
The @#$%& members probably threatened the poor guy. He did marry them, in a church where they were more welcome.

Church politics can get real ugly. I wonder if the @#$%& members can show their faces.

I can still remember our welcome to our Pittsburgh neighborhood. Someone burned a cross in our yard. They got the wrong house. That was the only time in my life I went looking for someone with a loaded gun (shotgun).

Turned out they meant it for the neighbor. Some weird church schsim had the members freaking each other out.

Ed.. that was in 1985



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/28/2012 07:37PM by cbelt3.
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Re: Racists Suck
Posted by: Ombligo
Date: July 28, 2012 07:52PM
Wow, time warp.

However as despicable as it is, the very fact that there is outrage by other members and the state association shows that things have changed dramatically since the sixties.


You can tell a lot about a woman by her hands...
- For example, if they are wrapped around your throat she's probably slightly upset.
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Re: Racists Suck
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: July 28, 2012 08:31PM
Quote
hal
That was a story right out of the 1960s...

I'm glad at least that some church members spoke their outrage...

Yes, the comments in the article I read (might not be the one linked above) were very reassuring.

Church is still the most segregated place in America. Sad but true.
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Re: Racists Suck
Posted by: cbelt3
Date: July 28, 2012 08:52PM
Lemon Drop- its more "tribal" than that. Same socio-economic status, etc..
Catholic churches are supposed to be territorial. But there are people who go to the "suburb church" instead of their inner city church.

That said, thus overt act by church members was reprehensible.
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Re: Racists Suck
Posted by: vision63
Date: July 29, 2012 06:26PM
Perhaps the preacher wants to "minister" to the aberrant members. We'll see how he handles it from this point forward. He might see it as a "teaching" moment which if they're receptive would be a good thing on some level.
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Re: Racists Suck
Posted by: Black
Date: July 29, 2012 06:31PM
Quote
vision63
Perhaps the preacher wants to "minister" to the aberrant members. We'll see how he handles it from this point forward. He might see it as a "teaching" moment which if they're receptive would be a good thing on some level.

Thanks. I found the reasoning he offered, as stated in the article, acceptable. The missing piece is whether the couple to wed were fully on board with the decision to move the wedding.


MR/F Guestmap: [www.mapservices.org]
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Re: Racists Suck
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: July 29, 2012 06:49PM
The couple was not on board with it. This pastor really messed up, IMO, and I can understand why members of the congregation are disappointed in him. I'm guessing that the people who didn't want the couple married there are powerful elders in the church and the pastor was afraid of them.
Here's the clincher for me: the bride had been attending the church for a year, her father attended, and her uncle worked as the church custodian. But she can't get married there. Unbelievable.
More info in the local paper:


"Charles Wilson said it was a huge disappointment that he and his wife couldn't get married at the church they attended because of the color of their skin.

"I feel like it was blatant racial discrimination," Wilson said Friday.

The 150-year-old church hasn't had any black couples married there in modern times. Weatherford married the couple but moved the ceremony to a nearby church."
[www.clarionledger.com]
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Re: Racists Suck
Posted by: vision63
Date: July 29, 2012 07:18PM
But then they chose to attend that church, which I'm sure carried some kind of historic reputation. The wise thing would be either to use this experience to bring the fossils to the modern age or separate themselves from them if they're immovable in their immorality.
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Re: Racists Suck
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: July 29, 2012 07:42PM
Let's not blame the victims here.

The church made the decision only days before this couple's scheduled wedding, so I get the impression that they had no reason to think they'd be told they couldn't marry there. And really who expects that in 2012??

Yes I hope the entire church can heal and move forward, with this newly married couple on board. And what's so great is that this makes national news, the Troglodytes who made this decision have nowhere to hide.
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Re: Racists Suck
Posted by: vision63
Date: July 29, 2012 10:05PM
Oh no, I feel for the couple.
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Re: Racists Suck
Posted by: kj
Date: July 30, 2012 03:51AM
Not to excuse the stance of those against the marriage (there is no excuse), but in the churches I attend, the Pastor is not the "head" of the church, per se. He is really just an employee, and answers to the church board. IOW, he has to be diplomatic to accomplish much of anything, since he's not really the "boss". One part of the church that I'm not fond of is that the board tends to be made up, in part, of people that have money rather than those who would guide the church in the right direction. kj.
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Re: Racists Suck
Posted by: Black
Date: July 30, 2012 08:01AM
Quote
Lemon Drop
The couple was not on board with it. This pastor really messed up, IMO, and I can understand why members of the congregation are disappointed in him.
Are you saying that the couple communicated to the pastor that they would prefer to go ahead and have the wedding there, and accept the potential controversy? Where did you read that?


MR/F Guestmap: [www.mapservices.org]
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Re: Racists Suck
Posted by: SDGuy
Date: July 30, 2012 09:40AM
Quote
kj
... the Pastor is not the "head" of the church, per se. He is really just an employee, and answers to the church board...the board tends to be made up, in part, of people that have money rather than those who would guide the church in the right direction. kj.


Ahh...THAT explains a lot...
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Re: Racists Suck
Posted by: Speedy
Date: July 30, 2012 09:51AM
That church has some powerful haters in the congregation. Gotta love Southern Baptists.


Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/30/2012 09:51AM by Speedy.
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Re: Racists Suck
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: July 30, 2012 10:07AM
Quote
Black
Quote
Lemon Drop
The couple was not on board with it. This pastor really messed up, IMO, and I can understand why members of the congregation are disappointed in him.
Are you saying that the couple communicated to the pastor that they would prefer to go ahead and have the wedding there, and accept the potential controversy? Where did you read that?

The couple had sent invitations to all their guests indicating the location of their wedding, they had held the rehearsal and the wedding was days away. I see nothing to indicate that they were OK with it, I see their objections. The pastor refused to marry them at his church, it was his call to make. He moved the location, they didn't. They objected.
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Re: Racists Suck
Posted by: kj
Date: July 30, 2012 01:26PM
Quote
Speedy
That church has some powerful haters in the congregation. Gotta love Southern Baptists.

Fwiw, it's not necessarily a Southern Baptist church. kj.
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Re: Racists Suck
Posted by: Wags
Date: July 30, 2012 01:58PM
Big surprise from an institution based entirely on fairy tales, and who are willing to condemn to hell or slaughter any other fairy tale believers who don't believe their particular fairy tale. Let's give them all tax subsidies and let them decide who our leaders will be.
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Re: Racists Suck
Posted by: Speedy
Date: July 30, 2012 02:28PM
Quote
kj
Quote
Speedy
That church has some powerful haters in the congregation. Gotta love Southern Baptists.

Fwiw, it's not necessarily a Southern Baptist church. kj.

Thank you for the correction. My apologies.


Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.
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Re: Racists Suck
Posted by: Black
Date: July 30, 2012 09:14PM
Quote
Lemon Drop
Quote
Black
Quote
Lemon Drop
The couple was not on board with it. This pastor really messed up, IMO, and I can understand why members of the congregation are disappointed in him.
Are you saying that the couple communicated to the pastor that they would prefer to go ahead and have the wedding there, and accept the potential controversy? Where did you read that?

The couple had sent invitations to all their guests indicating the location of their wedding, they had held the rehearsal and the wedding was days away. I see nothing to indicate that they were OK with it, I see their objections. The pastor refused to marry them at his church, it was his call to make. He moved the location, they didn't. They objected.

Can you point me to any source that describes "they objected?"
I'm certainly not suggesting they were happy about the move, but I guess I just don't share your magical article reading powers.


MR/F Guestmap: [www.mapservices.org]
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Re: Racists Suck
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: July 30, 2012 09:34PM
Quote
Black
Quote
Lemon Drop
Quote
Black
Quote
Lemon Drop
The couple was not on board with it. This pastor really messed up, IMO, and I can understand why members of the congregation are disappointed in him.
Are you saying that the couple communicated to the pastor that they would prefer to go ahead and have the wedding there, and accept the potential controversy? Where did you read that?

The couple had sent invitations to all their guests indicating the location of their wedding, they had held the rehearsal and the wedding was days away. I see nothing to indicate that they were OK with it, I see their objections. The pastor refused to marry them at his church, it was his call to make. He moved the location, they didn't. They objected.

Can you point me to any source that describes "they objected?"
I'm certainly not suggesting they were happy about the move, but I guess I just don't share your magical article reading powers.

What exactly are you looking for because the article and the position of the couple seems really clear to me. They wanted to get married at that church, the wedding was planned and was days away. They got told no by the pastor. They expressed that his decision that they had to marry elsewhere was "blatant racial discrimination." Is that not objecting to it? It's certainly not a compliment.

The groom:
"Charles Wilson said it was a huge disappointment that he and his wife couldn't get married at the church they attended because of the color of their skin.

"I feel like it was blatant racial discrimination," Wilson said Friday."
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Re: Racists Suck
Posted by: $tevie
Date: July 31, 2012 01:25PM
It was ONE DAY before the wedding. Regardless of the reason, moving a wedding in one day would suck.

In my opinion, this article explains things more clearly:

[abcnews.go.com]


"Stop thinking about art works as objects, and start thinking about them as triggers for experiences." ~ Brian Eno
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Re: Racists Suck
Posted by: RgrF
Date: July 31, 2012 05:04PM
Quote
kj
Not to excuse the stance of those against the marriage (there is no excuse), but in the churches I attend, the Pastor is not the "head" of the church, per se. He is really just an employee, and answers to the church board. IOW, he has to be diplomatic to accomplish much of anything, since he's not really the "boss". One part of the church that I'm not fond of is that the board tends to be made up, in part, of people that have money rather than those who would guide the church in the right direction. kj.

I think kj has this one correct. Most Protestant congregations have the freedom to hire and fired pastors at will. This is different and might seem a bit strange to those from hierarchical organizations ( Catholic, Mormon etc.) but maybe not to those from a Protestant background. As I understand these things (I really don't) Jews and most Protestants allow church or temple members to make these hiring decisions at a local level, thus the pastor will almost always reflect local values.

How Muslims administer themselves, I have no idea nor do I have an inkling about Buddhists, Rastafarians or members of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
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Re: Racists Suck
Posted by: kj
Date: August 01, 2012 01:29AM
Quote
RgrF
Quote
kj
Not to excuse the stance of those against the marriage (there is no excuse), but in the churches I attend, the Pastor is not the "head" of the church, per se. He is really just an employee, and answers to the church board. IOW, he has to be diplomatic to accomplish much of anything, since he's not really the "boss". One part of the church that I'm not fond of is that the board tends to be made up, in part, of people that have money rather than those who would guide the church in the right direction. kj.

I think kj has this one correct. Most Protestant congregations have the freedom to hire and fired pastors at will. This is different and might seem a bit strange to those from hierarchical organizations ( Catholic, Mormon etc.) but maybe not to those from a Protestant background. As I understand these things (I really don't) Jews and most Protestants allow church or temple members to make these hiring decisions at a local level, thus the pastor will almost always reflect local values.

How Muslims administer themselves, I have no idea nor do I have an inkling about Buddhists, Rastafarians or members of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Thanks Rog. I only recently (after many years attending these churches) found out that the Pastors don't make most of the decisions. Interestingly, I don't think Mormons pay anyone to be the "head" of their churches. From what I understand, all the guys are expected to serve a term as "Deacon". Not a bad idea, really. kj.
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Re: Racists Suck
Posted by: $tevie
Date: August 01, 2012 10:15AM
So all that means is that we are discussing a racist board and not a racist minister. Same difference.


"Stop thinking about art works as objects, and start thinking about them as triggers for experiences." ~ Brian Eno
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Re: Racists Suck
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: August 01, 2012 10:29AM
Quote
$tevie
So all that means is that we are discussing a racist board and not a racist minister. Same difference.

I think a racist board and a cowardly minister. He could have stood up to these people and done the right thing. The decision to marry someone in a church is that of the minister. He said he wanted to "keep peace" so he moved the wedding. That's cowardice. He made the wrong call, and the right one should have been obvious in 2012. (Yes even in, OK especially in, Mississippi.)
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Re: Racists Suck
Posted by: kj
Date: August 01, 2012 02:02PM
Quote
$tevie
So all that means is that we are discussing a racist board and not a racist minister. Same difference.

I don't really think it is the same. For one, it makes the minister's behavior more understandable. For another, the racists on the board are likely in their 70's or 80's. They will be gone soon, and the board will become more in step with the times. It also makes it clear that we're talking about his job. If he's fired, the board is still there, and maybe when they hire a new pastor, he's more in line with their racist views. Would that be better? I don't know. So it's a more complex situation than one would think. How does one best effect change? Is an "in your face" approach always better? Or is it sometimes wise to work with people for more lasting change, even though it may take longer? kj.
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Re: Racists Suck
Posted by: kj
Date: August 01, 2012 02:11PM
Quote
Lemon Drop
Quote
$tevie
So all that means is that we are discussing a racist board and not a racist minister. Same difference.

I think a racist board and a cowardly minister. He could have stood up to these people and done the right thing. The decision to marry someone in a church is that of the minister. He said he wanted to "keep peace" so he moved the wedding. That's cowardice. He made the wrong call, and the right one should have been obvious in 2012. (Yes even in, OK especially in, Mississippi.)

My view is a little different, as you can tell in my post to Stevie. But one thing I would quibble with is that you continue to say it was the pastor's call. This is only partially true; it is his choice to marry the couple, but it is not his choice to marry the people in that church. It is not his church. As far as cowardice, my opinion is that his job is to minister to people. That means not just the couple who wanted to be married there, but also the racists on the board. So in my mind he has some obligation to bring them on board rather than destroy them. And he needs be diplomatic to get anything done. kj.
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Re: Racists Suck
Posted by: $tevie
Date: August 01, 2012 02:15PM
Quote
kj
Quote
$tevie
So all that means is that we are discussing a racist board and not a racist minister. Same difference.

I don't really think it is the same. For one, it makes the minister's behavior more understandable. For another, the racists on the board are likely in their 70's or 80's. They will be gone soon, and the board will become more in step with the times. It also makes it clear that we're talking about his job. If he's fired, the board is still there, and maybe when they hire a new pastor, he's more in line with their racist views. Would that be better? I don't know. So it's a more complex situation than one would think. How does one best effect change? Is an "in your face" approach always better? Or is it sometimes wise to work with people for more lasting change, even though it may take longer? kj.

In my mind, my post absolved the minister and went after the board.


"Stop thinking about art works as objects, and start thinking about them as triggers for experiences." ~ Brian Eno
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Re: Racists Suck
Posted by: kj
Date: August 01, 2012 02:24PM
Quote
$tevie
Quote
kj
Quote
$tevie
So all that means is that we are discussing a racist board and not a racist minister. Same difference.

I don't really think it is the same. For one, it makes the minister's behavior more understandable. For another, the racists on the board are likely in their 70's or 80's. They will be gone soon, and the board will become more in step with the times. It also makes it clear that we're talking about his job. If he's fired, the board is still there, and maybe when they hire a new pastor, he's more in line with their racist views. Would that be better? I don't know. So it's a more complex situation than one would think. How does one best effect change? Is an "in your face" approach always better? Or is it sometimes wise to work with people for more lasting change, even though it may take longer? kj.

In my mind, my post absolved the minister and went after the board.

I see. Well, he may be going after the board too, just not in the way others would :-). kj.
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Re: Racists Suck
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: August 01, 2012 02:40PM
The question is who was hurt by this action? The couple getting married, that's who. And now the congregation as a whole has been hurt because of the embarrassment caused by this poor decision.

Nothing was going to hurt the racists in the congregation. It's not clear what their specific leadership role was. They may have simply been the loudest on this issue. Members of the congregation made it known that the body as a whole was never consulted on this and it appears that this small racist group held a minority opinion on this issue.

I belong to a protestant church and yes it is run by the congregation, not the pastor. But that does not mean that the pastor doesn't give moral leadership when he sees people in the congregation making a mistake. That's probably his most important role.
This minister failed big time at that responsibility.
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Re: Racists Suck
Posted by: kj
Date: August 01, 2012 03:05PM
>>I belong to a protestant church and yes it is run by the congregation, not the pastor.

This one is run by a board, not the congregation. I've been (and am currently) employed by baptist churches (one first baptist, even), so I know more than I wish I did about how they work. It's clear to me some of the racists were on the board. The pastor wanted to marry them, but couldn't in the church because the board wouldn't let him, hence the mention of marrying people in another church. If he takes the board on directly, he's fired. I don't know what that accomplishes. I agree in an ideal world, things don't go down like that. But this isn't an ideal world and churches are filled with imperfect people. Maybe you could find it in your heart to grant the pastor a little grace ;-) ? Where does it say in the bible that his sins are worse than yours? kj.
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Re: Racists Suck
Posted by: swampy
Date: August 01, 2012 03:25PM
kj...I think the Southern Baptist Convention derserves kudos for electing a black as president.




If you don't stand for something, you'll probably fall for anything.
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Re: Racists Suck
Posted by: kj
Date: August 01, 2012 03:36PM
Quote
swampy
kj...I think the Southern Baptist Convention derserves kudos for electing a black as president.

I don't understand. kj.
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Re: Racists Suck
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: August 01, 2012 04:22PM
Quote
kj
>>I belong to a protestant church and yes it is run by the congregation, not the pastor.

This one is run by a board, not the congregation. I've been (and am currently) employed by baptist churches (one first baptist, even), so I know more than I wish I did about how they work. It's clear to me some of the racists were on the board. The pastor wanted to marry them, but couldn't in the church because the board wouldn't let him, hence the mention of marrying people in another church. If he takes the board on directly, he's fired. I don't know what that accomplishes. I agree in an ideal world, things don't go down like that. But this isn't an ideal world and churches are filled with imperfect people. Maybe you could find it in your heart to grant the pastor a little grace ;-) ? Where does it say in the bible that his sins are worse than yours? kj.

kj - there is nothing to indicate that the small number of people in the congregation who objected to the marriage ceremony comprise a "board" at this church. Have you seen that in print anywhere? They remain anonymous, even the people in the congregation don't know who complained.
There is also nothing to indicate that the pastor was threatened with losing his job. The congregation has rallied around him and he appears to have majority support, even after the controversy.
The pastor himself stated that he made the decision, in order to "keep peace."
He made a bad call. Now he's trying to pick up the pieces and heal his church. I wish him the best.
The question remains - if an African American couple who belong to this church want to get married there, can they?
Until such a wedding takes place at this church, I think they're going to be stuck with this stain. Again, I wish them the best.
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Re: Racists Suck
Posted by: swampy
Date: August 01, 2012 04:36PM
Quote
kj
Quote
swampy
kj...I think the Southern Baptist Convention derserves kudos for electing a black as president.

I don't understand. kj.

[articles.chicagotribune.com]




If you don't stand for something, you'll probably fall for anything.
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Re: Racists Suck
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: August 01, 2012 04:44PM
That is an historic move by the SBC. Good for them.
(although I disagree with many of their stands on social issues.)

However, I don't think this particular church belongs to the SBC. What I recall reading is that they are affiliated with a state Baptist group but not that national one. (please correct me if that's wrong.)
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Re: Racists Suck
Posted by: RgrF
Date: August 01, 2012 09:52PM
Quote
swampy
kj...I think the Southern Baptist Convention American people derserve kudos for electing a black as president.

A quote we won't soon see.
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Re: Racists Suck
Posted by: kj
Date: August 02, 2012 03:51AM
Quote
Lemon Drop
Quote
kj
>>I belong to a protestant church and yes it is run by the congregation, not the pastor.

This one is run by a board, not the congregation. I've been (and am currently) employed by baptist churches (one first baptist, even), so I know more than I wish I did about how they work. It's clear to me some of the racists were on the board. The pastor wanted to marry them, but couldn't in the church because the board wouldn't let him, hence the mention of marrying people in another church. If he takes the board on directly, he's fired. I don't know what that accomplishes. I agree in an ideal world, things don't go down like that. But this isn't an ideal world and churches are filled with imperfect people. Maybe you could find it in your heart to grant the pastor a little grace ;-) ? Where does it say in the bible that his sins are worse than yours? kj.

kj - there is nothing to indicate that the small number of people in the congregation who objected to the marriage ceremony comprise a "board" at this church. Have you seen that in print anywhere? They remain anonymous, even the people in the congregation don't know who complained.
There is also nothing to indicate that the pastor was threatened with losing his job. The congregation has rallied around him and he appears to have majority support, even after the controversy.
The pastor himself stated that he made the decision, in order to "keep peace."
He made a bad call. Now he's trying to pick up the pieces and heal his church. I wish him the best.
The question remains - if an African American couple who belong to this church want to get married there, can they?
Until such a wedding takes place at this church, I think they're going to be stuck with this stain. Again, I wish them the best.

You're right, I'm sure he performed the marriage at a different church because he wasn't afraid of a small number of people in his congregation who had very little power to influence him. That makes more sense. kj.
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Re: Racists Suck
Posted by: RgrF
Date: August 02, 2012 04:02AM
That's not the issue. The issue is that members of a congregation could not use congregational facilities for what would be routine had they been white not been black.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/02/2012 04:03AM by RgrF.
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Re: Racists Suck
Posted by: $tevie
Date: August 02, 2012 08:12AM
I would like to point out that the couple in question were not members of that parish. I can't figure out if the folks who are saying they were "members of the church" think they were?


"Stop thinking about art works as objects, and start thinking about them as triggers for experiences." ~ Brian Eno
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Re: Racists Suck
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: August 02, 2012 08:58AM
Quote
$tevie
I would like to point out that the couple in question were not members of that parish. I can't figure out if the folks who are saying they were "members of the church" think they were?

The bride had been attending for a year, her fiance had recently joined her there, her Dad attended, her uncle was the custodian. In my book she counts as a member. She'd also donated to the church. They didn't just show up as random people from the neighborhood and ask to marry there.
Bottom line, they were welcome on Sunday morning, as are other African American worshippers, their money in the plate was good, but when it came to the really important stuff they were told to take a hike.
Heartbreaking and sad for that community and the family directly involved.
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Re: Racists Suck
Posted by: $tevie
Date: August 02, 2012 09:42AM
Emotionally I agree with you, Lemon Drop, but factually they were not members. Just trying to keep things straight.


"Stop thinking about art works as objects, and start thinking about them as triggers for experiences." ~ Brian Eno
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