Lots of talk about people who need it getting help, this article makes me wonder about the help James Holmes was getting. This woman's background is unusual and has some red flags.


[www.csmonitor.com]

Ground is being prepared to get him off. As part of his planning he must have visited a bunch of psychiatrists to lay the groundwork.

She completed a residency in physical medicine and rehabilitation at Northwestern University Medical Center in 1990. After working as chief of physical medicine for the U.S. Air Force in San Antonio, as a physician in Aurora, and later as an acupuncturist, she completed a second residency at the University of Colorado...

Better credentials than most school counselors, I'd wager. But the acupuncture thing is a red flag.

...

Schools do not traditionally employ counselors of great repute and skill. They tend to go by lowest-salary requirements and "what will satisfy our insurance company?"

And we don't yet know how much "therapy" he had with her. Maybe he only saw her a couple of times when he was deciding whether to drop out of school.

I wouldn't consider acupuncture a red flag. It has gained in reputation over the last 10 years or so and in some cultures is highly touted.

The rest of your comment I agree with.

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If you don't stand for something, you'll probably fall for anything.

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swampy
It has gained in reputation over the last 10 years or so and in some cultures is highly touted.

eh, so has paris hilton

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swampy
I wouldn't consider acupuncture a red flag. It has gained in reputation over the last 10 years or so and in some cultures is highly touted.

The rest of your comment I agree with.

By itself no I wouldn't consider that a red flag. But she was a medical doctor (not the alternative type) who had a fairly high position in an Air Force hospital, then went from that to the lower paying field of acupuncture. That just strikes me as odd. People who have gone to medical school, completed residencies and passed boards don't generally go backwards from that if they are competent at what they're doing.

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mattkime

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swampy
It has gained in reputation over the last 10 years or so and in some cultures is highly touted.

eh, so has paris hilton

That's some good snark right there.

Wow... already beating up on the poor pshrink who saw him maybe a few times ?
Fine.. he's nuts. Cure him, Then execute him.

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Chakravartin
And we don't yet know how much "therapy" he had with her. Maybe he only saw her a couple of times when he was deciding whether to drop out of school.

True, it just says she was treating him. The fact that he mailed the notebook describing his crimes to her indicates he intended some sort of message there, maybe "why didn't you take me seriously?"

I still want to know what prescriptions she wrote for him, if any. I guess that'll come out at the trial, or in the book that gets written in a decade.

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cbelt3
Wow... already beating up on the poor pshrink who saw him maybe a few times ?
Fine.. he's nuts. Cure him, Then execute him.

Hey you're the one calling for more and better mental health care.
If he sought help and found quackery that could prove relevant.
Obviously the crime is not her fault on any level, that's all him.

Geez, let's all second guess things that we can't possibly know about. Why are we trying to find a scapegoat in the first place?

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"Stop thinking about art works as objects, and start thinking about them as triggers for experiences." ~ Brian Eno

I'll bet she got certificated in acupuncture while she was doing a regular residency. I happen to know that in Portland (OR) it's not extremely rare to find an MD that is also certificated in acupuncture or some other form of naturopathic medicine. I don't think the acupuncture thing is, by itself much of a red flag.

I do think the bit about her being reprimanded for prescribing drugs like Vicodin, Xanax, Lorazepam and Ambien for herself, her husband and an employee does bring into question her judgment - at least somewhat - though.

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Ted King
I'll bet she got certificated in acupuncture while she was doing a regular residency. I happen to know that in Portland (OR) it's not extremely rare to find an MD that is also certificated in acupuncture or some other form of naturopathic medicine. I don't think the acupuncture thing is, by itself much of a red flag.

I do think the bit about her being reprimanded for prescribing drugs like Vicodin, Xanax, Lorazepam and Ambien for herself, her husband and an employee does bring into question her judgment - at least somewhat - though.

Her bio has been scrubbed from the University's website but was picked up by reporters. It's a lot more clear than the LA Times article, she practiced acupuncture as part of her rehab practice in Aurora.
Holmes' psychiatric care, particularly any meds he was on, could figure prominently in his court proceedings. It'll be front and center tomorrow when a judge will decide if the prosecution can see and use the notebook or if that falls under confidentiality rules.

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Ted King
I'll bet she got certificated in acupuncture while she was doing a regular residency. I happen to know that in Portland (OR) it's not extremely rare to find an MD that is also certificated in acupuncture or some other form of naturopathic medicine. I don't think the acupuncture thing is, by itself much of a red flag.

It is if you're looking for someone rational.

Every scientific study of acupuncture shows that it's BS. No better than a placebo or random-poking. In fact, they now use "sham acupuncture" in addition to traditional placebos in double-blind pain-drug studies.

[www.sciencedaily.com]

...numerous systematic reviews have generated little truly convincing evidence that acupuncture is effective in reducing pain, and serious adverse effects continue to be reported.

...The authors observe that recent results from high-quality randomized controlled trials have shown that various forms of acupuncture, including so-called "sham acupuncture," during which no needles actually penetrate the skin, are equally effective for chronic low back pain, and more effective than standard care. In these and other studies, the effects were attributed to such factors as therapist conviction, patient enthusiasm or the acupuncturist's communication style.

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Lemon Drop
Holmes' psychiatric care, particularly any meds he was on, could figure prominently in his court proceedings. It'll be front and center tomorrow when a judge will decide if the prosecution can see and use the notebook or if that falls under confidentiality rules.

I'm not the judge.

Frankly, I have a great distaste for all the digging that goes on by the media before a trial. Didn't this stuff used to come out during the trials? The need for the general public to be privy to all this detail in advance just eludes me. I honestly don't know how anybody who is accused of a high profile crime in this country can get anything remotely resembling a fair trial these days. I think a generation ago these cases would all end up as mistrials.

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"Stop thinking about art works as objects, and start thinking about them as triggers for experiences." ~ Brian Eno

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Lemon Drop
Lots of talk about people who need it getting help, this article makes me wonder about the help James Holmes was getting. This woman's background is unusual and has some red flags.


[www.csmonitor.com]

You should work for the NY Daily News.

She was reprimanded for one instance of misconduct. What are the other "red flags?"

People who have gone to medical school, completed residencies and passed boards don't generally go backwards from that if they are competent at what they're doing.

Really? That's one hell of an uninformed generalization. Maybe she became interested in alternative medicine (you know, curiosity!) and decided to learn about it and become a practitioner. How is that going backwards? How do you know she made less practicing acupuncture then she did working for the AF? (You don't, and why does it matter?.) Doctors are only in it for the money: that can be their only possible motive.

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$tevie
Geez, let's all second guess things that we can't possibly know about. Why are we trying to find a scapegoat in the first place?

I completely agree. This thread is complete BS.

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Chakravartin

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Ted King
I'll bet she got certificated in acupuncture while she was doing a regular residency. I happen to know that in Portland (OR) it's not extremely rare to find an MD that is also certificated in acupuncture or some other form of naturopathic medicine. I don't think the acupuncture thing is, by itself much of a red flag.

It is if you're looking for someone rational.

Every scientific study of acupuncture shows that it's BS. No better than a placebo or random-poking. In fact, they now use "sham acupuncture" in addition to traditional placebos in double-blind pain-drug studies.

[www.sciencedaily.com]

...numerous systematic reviews have generated little truly convincing evidence that acupuncture is effective in reducing pain, and serious adverse effects continue to be reported.

...The authors observe that recent results from high-quality randomized controlled trials have shown that various forms of acupuncture, including so-called "sham acupuncture," during which no needles actually penetrate the skin, are equally effective for chronic low back pain, and more effective than standard care. In these and other studies, the effects were attributed to such factors as therapist conviction, patient enthusiasm or the acupuncturist's communication style.

I'm a little surprised by the vehemence of your argument Chakravartin. Not sure why exactly, but i am.

If I read the last paragraph correctly, whatever the acupuncturists are doing, they seem to have a better understanding of what it is that the patient needs to heal than standard modern medicine does, judged purely upon results. And yet you knock it as quackery. There are alternative therapies like reiki and Bowen where there is little or no contact of any sort, that can and do help countless 1000's of people. I happen to believe that the mind is one of the most powerful healing tools we have and if the alternate therapist can utilise the patients mind as an ally in healing, where modern medicine cannot, then I think that needs to be acknowledged and not so easily dismissed as non-rational and therefore somehow illegitimate.
You seem to have a very western way of viewing the subject.

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Manlove
I happen to believe that the mind is one of the most powerful healing tools we have and if the alternate therapist can utilise the patients mind as an ally in healing, where modern medicine cannot...

Modern medicine is every bit as capable of exploiting placebos as villainous snake-oil salesmen and gullible "alternative medicine" adherents.

All I keep thinking about as I read this thread is the minister who declared that Satan had possessd Holmes. This is just a pseudo-scientific version of that same desire to deny that fate can be arbitrary and terrifying.

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"Stop thinking about art works as objects, and start thinking about them as triggers for experiences." ~ Brian Eno

In my opinion, mental health science is not advanced enough where you can expect, with any regularity, services to prevent something like this. I'm sure many will disagree, but I don't think outcomes are reliable enough to say that the "standard treatment" (whatever that would be) could be expected to manage behavior like Holmes'. That said, from the docs I've worked with, I would trust the physiatrists far more so than the psychiatrists. kj.

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Chakravartin

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Manlove
I happen to believe that the mind is one of the most powerful healing tools we have and if the alternate therapist can utilise the patients mind as an ally in healing, where modern medicine cannot...

Modern medicine is every bit as capable of exploiting placebos as villainous snake-oil salesmen and gullible "alternative medicine" adherents.

I was only taking what you posted and pointing out that it says in black and white that "the authors observe that ... various forms of acupuncture...are effective for chronic low back pain, and more effective than standard care. "
Maybe in the link they mention something different about what standard care is than what I thought it meant, but given what you posted, acupuncture has better results than standard medicine.
If it is in fact true that the authors found that ..."in these and other studies, the effects were attributed to such factors as therapist conviction, patient enthusiasm or the acupuncturist's communication style," then I think that says a lot about how acupuncturists treat the patient as a whole and do not think in terms of curing or treating a specific isolated ailment without regard to the patient as a total entity.
You have a very poor regard of non scientific western style medicine it seems. Is there a particular reason why?

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kj
In my opinion, mental health science is not advanced enough where you can expect, with any regularity, services to prevent something like this. I'm sure many will disagree, but I don't think outcomes are reliable enough to say that the "standard treatment" (whatever that would be) could be expected to manage behavior like Holmes'. That said, from the docs I've worked with, I would trust the physiatrists far more so than the psychiatrists. kj.

I agree that the treatment of mental health is not yet a science. It likes to think it is, but it is not.

Addendum. If not for modern surgical techniques my daughter would be dead. But the staph infection
( [www.medicinenet.com] ) that almost killed her was most likely contracted in a hospital and caused by the misapplication of other treatments on other people. What one hand giveth...

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kj
In my opinion, mental health science is not advanced enough where you can expect, with any regularity, services to prevent something like this. I'm sure many will disagree, but I don't think outcomes are reliable enough to say that the "standard treatment" (whatever that would be) could be expected to manage behavior like Holmes'. That said, from the docs I've worked with, I would trust the physiatrists far more so than the psychiatrists. kj.

kj nails it here. The details of the disciplinary action are a bit disturbing, but there has not been anything resembling enough information released to make a judgment on whether the treatment Holmes received was competent. Do you folks realize we don't yet even know what Holmes was being treated for?
Interesting, though, the shift from physical medicine to psychiatry.
I know competent docs that I'd trust my own care to who are proponents of acupuncture.

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Manlove
If it is in fact true that the authors found that ..."in these and other studies, the effects were attributed to such factors as therapist conviction, patient enthusiasm or the acupuncturist's communication style," then I think that says a lot about how acupuncturists treat the patient as a whole...

Actually, it's just another way of describing how placebos work.

And the same description applies to "sham acupuncture."

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Manlove
You have a very poor regard of non scientific western style medicine it seems.

There is no such thing as non-scientific medicine.

"Alternative medicine" is quackery at best. It gives false hope to people and often causes serious harm.

People who push such "therapies" should be jailed.

Chakra-
for some people, "Alternative" medical practices work. After all, many of them have worked for thousands of years.

Four hundred years ago, a 'trained' doctor would bleed you.
Two hundred years ago, a 'trained' doctor would operate on you without washing anything.
One hundred years ago, a 'trained' doctor might also cut your hair.

'modern medicine' is nothing more than appled experience and learning of a hideously complex system.. the human body. Who is to say that thousand year old approaches haven't learned as much ? Just because one explains the functions of the body as "Chakras" versus complex medical terminology doesn't mean one understands interactions any worse.

When my brother was diagnosed with his disability (cerebral palsy) at age 4 in the early 1960's, the modern medicine doctors told my mother he would die before he was 10. It was best, they said, to institutionalize him. But Mom found an 'alternative' doctor who suggested that through a process called 'patterning' he could learn to creep and walk again. His neurologist pooh-poohed the idea. "The brain", he said, "Cannot be reprogrammed. Once broken, it never heals."

Guess what ? The neurologist was wrong.

If you open your mind, you'll note that many of these 'weird' practices affect the body and/or the mind similarly to modern medical practices.

Last point.. my wife, as many of you know, has a neurostimulator implanted in her spinal column to help manage the pain of rheumatoid arthritis. I'm familiar with the science around it, because my brother in law (yes, her brother) worked on research in the late 1970's involving stimulating nerve cells. Guess what inspired the research in the first place ?

Acupuncture.

Is all this bitterness still due to that hospital bill?

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Chakravartin

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Manlove
If it is in fact true that the authors found that ..."in these and other studies, the effects were attributed to such factors as therapist conviction, patient enthusiasm or the acupuncturist's communication style," then I think that says a lot about how acupuncturists treat the patient as a whole...

Actually, it's just another way of describing how placebos work.

And the same description applies to "sham acupuncture."

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Manlove
You have a very poor regard of non scientific western style medicine it seems.

There is no such thing as non-scientific medicine.

"Alternative medicine" is quackery at best. It gives false hope to people and often causes serious harm.

People who push such "therapies" should be jailed.

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MR/F Guestmap: [www.mapservices.org]

"Holmes’ public defenders could pursue an insanity defense on his behalf. He was seeing psychiatrist Lynne Fenton, 51, director of student mental-health services at the University of Colorado Anschutz Medical Campus and a specialist in schizophrenia and bipolar disorders.

Holmes began the process of withdrawing from the university’s doctoral program in June. It remains unclear why he was being treated by Fenton.

If Holmes is found to be insane, the death penalty would be taken off the table, according to legal experts. He is being held in sequestered confinement without bail at the Arapahoe County jail."

So let's see:
mass killer who hits more people than any previous such shooter in history was a doctoral student in neuroscience
said killer was receiving psychiatric treatment from same university
killer mailed information about his plans to the psychiatrist
outcome of trial could weigh on nature of said treatment
identified psychiatrist is new to the field, in her early 50's, after abandoning a number of different specialties and experiencing disciplinary actions involving abuse of pain killers



But there's really no compelling reason to discuss any of that or wonder if he got good care.
Carry on.

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Black
Is all this bitterness still due to that hospital bill?

"Alternative medicine" hurts people.

I know from personal experience. I've had friends who were suckered by it.

There's not one iota of evidence that any "traditional" practices work better than modern medicine and most "traditional" treatments are actually BS made up by con-artists in the latter half of the 20th century.

It's well-documented, but "true believers" believe nomatter what info they have to the contrary.

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Chakravartin

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Black
Is all this bitterness still due to that hospital bill?

"Alternative medicine" hurts people.

I know from personal experience. I've had friends who were suckered by it.

There's not one iota of evidence that any "traditional" practices work better than modern medicine and most "traditional" treatments are actually BS made up by con-artists in the latter half of the 20th century.

It's well-documented, but "true believers" believe nomatter what info they have to the contrary.

I'm really glad you're not my doctor, with a closed-minded black/white attitude like that.

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But there's really no compelling reason to discuss any of that or wonder if he got good care.

You're right.

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[www.flickr.com] [picasaweb.google.com]

The conversation, if we must have one, should be
1. What kind of process do colleges and universities use to vet their on-staff medical employees? Are there any requirements by accrediting organizations regarding such employees, or is it whatever the colleges feel like doing?
and
2. Why is the prosecution leaking all this information, and in some cases misinformation, to the press?

But trying to turn this into "the shrink could have prevented this if she had had a better CV" is in the worst taste possible.

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"Stop thinking about art works as objects, and start thinking about them as triggers for experiences." ~ Brian Eno

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Uncle Wig
But there's really no compelling reason to discuss any of that or wonder if he got good care.

You're right.

Yet you're up to 3 comments on this thread. Can't stay away?

(we promise not to miss you)

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Lemon Drop
"Holmes’ public defenders could pursue an insanity defense on his behalf. He was seeing psychiatrist Lynne Fenton, 51, director of student mental-health services at the University of Colorado Anschutz Medical Campus and a specialist in schizophrenia and bipolar disorders.

Holmes began the process of withdrawing from the university’s doctoral program in June. It remains unclear why he was being treated by Fenton.

If Holmes is found to be insane, the death penalty would be taken off the table, according to legal experts. He is being held in sequestered confinement without bail at the Arapahoe County jail."

So let's see:
mass killer who hits more people than any previous such shooter in history was a doctoral student in neuroscience
said killer was receiving psychiatric treatment from same university
killer mailed information about his plans to the psychiatrist
outcome of trial could weigh on nature of said treatment
identified psychiatrist is new to the field, in her early 50's, after abandoning a number of different specialties and experiencing disciplinary actions involving abuse of pain killers



But there's really no compelling reason to discuss any of that or wonder if he got good care.
Carry on.

I have no problem with anything in this post-- it's all factually correct, and the topic is certainly of interest to me-- I want to understand why this happened, I want to be able to make informed judgments about what needs to happen to minimize similar future incidents; however the thread kicked off based on some pretty shaky info/opinions that were pretty painful to read, coming from a non-layperson perspective.

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MR/F Guestmap: [www.mapservices.org]

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Black
on some pretty shaky info/opinions that were pretty painful to read, coming from a non-layperson perspective.

There are very few threads on this forum (both sides) that don't contain "shaky info/opinions."
Does that mean the conversations aren't worth having?
If so, why are you here?

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Lemon Drop

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Black
on some pretty shaky info/opinions that were pretty painful to read, coming from a non-layperson perspective.

There are very few threads on this forum (both sides) that don't contain "shaky info/opinions."
Does that mean the conversations aren't worth having?
If so, why are you here?

I understand your defensiveness but I think Uncle Wig and others were reacting to the predominance of poorly informed BS being posted rather that whether the subject matter is worthy of discussion. Not sure what else to say as I've basically said this already but you don't seem to want to hear it.

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MR/F Guestmap: [www.mapservices.org]

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Black

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Lemon Drop

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Black
on some pretty shaky info/opinions that were pretty painful to read, coming from a non-layperson perspective.

There are very few threads on this forum (both sides) that don't contain "shaky info/opinions."
Does that mean the conversations aren't worth having?
If so, why are you here?

I understand your defensiveness but I think Uncle Wig and others were reacting to the predominance of poorly informed BS being posted rather that whether the subject matter is worthy of discussion. Not sure what else to say as I've basically said this already but you don't seem to want to hear it.

"predominance of poorly informed BS"

Love it.

"But there's really no compelling reason to discuss any of that or wonder if he got good care."

I don't think that's a road anyone will truly go down. The first thing that would have to be established is what "good care" would be in this case. It would probably be fair to say that his treatment started with assessment. Did they correctly identify his issues? Was a "mass murder inventory" given? Did he score high on the "mass murder" scale on some test? Of course not. So how could subsequent treatment have been appropriate when there's no way to predict behavior like that? What would that treatment be if you knew he had the potential for mass murder? Jail/institutionalization? Heavy sedation? Who would treat people like that if the treatment must be effective? At any rate, I think what Stevie has been saying is about all there is to it, at this point. kj.

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kj
"But there's really no compelling reason to discuss any of that or wonder if he got good care."

I don't think that's a road anyone will truly go down. .

I completely disagree.

Remember the Columbine killers? The nature of the psychiatric care they received was very important when all the facts came in. (which was years after the event)
And particularly if James Holmes tries an insanity plea, it's going to be all about the psychiatric care (assuming there was any.) He's now claiming to have amnesia about the entire event, so I think you can expect a defense related to his mental state.
Also, this doctor bills herself as a specialist and researcher in assessing threats posed by patients diagnosed with schizophrenia or other personality disorders.
The state of his mental health is going to factor in, and the role this doctor played is obviously part of that.

Have a great day!

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Lemon Drop

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Uncle Wig
But there's really no compelling reason to discuss any of that or wonder if he got good care.

You're right.

Yet you're up to 3 comments on this thread. Can't stay away?

(we promise not to miss you)

Well, two comments: the other being a response to Chakravartin's foaming-at-the-mouth indictment of any and all alternatives to AMA sanctioned conventional thinking.

But the thing is, Grace: you're digging for mud to smear on Dr. Fenton and you've got nothing. You don't know her background, you don't know how many times she saw the suspect (was it one time or 20?), you don't know the nature of the treatment, you don't know what he may have told her. You don't know any of the things that may end up being relevant at trial. There really isn't any point to your original post except to stir up muck. You seem to be assuming that "good care" would have or could have prevented these murders, but you simply can't know that.

Ok, that's three comments now!

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that's your 4th actually, you find me irresistible, don't you?

Also, I made none of the claims in your post, (the ones that are correct, anyway.) There is full information about the doctor's background available. "You don't know her background" is a false statement. I won't bother with the rest.

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Uncle Wig
...Well, two comments: the other being a response to Chakravartin's foaming-at-the-mouth indictment of any and all alternatives to AMA sanctioned conventional thinking.

Funny!

I've got some prime alkaline water to sell you. Top-quality. Cures all ills!!

Or how about irradiating your blood to boost your immune system? No side-effects if you survive the first week!

You probably just need a minor chiropractic adjustment.

Yeah. Let's challenge conventional thinking!!

The subject was acupuncture. You are drifting far away from there in the effort to prove your point.

I can post links to people killed or maimed by surgeons, but what would be the point? The subject was acupuncture.

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"Stop thinking about art works as objects, and start thinking about them as triggers for experiences." ~ Brian Eno

What Uncle Wig said. It was worth bringing up that the shooter's having seen a psychiatrist could eventually lead to an understanding of why he did this. However, everything else written in this thread about her relation to him and to the reason for the shootings is idle speculation, and the acupuncture issue (even assuming acupuncture is bogus except as a placebo) is completely irrelevant. Far too much mileage has been gotten out of this one fact.

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"So be proud to be a decent American instead of just a w'anker whipping up fear!" - Michael D. Higgins, President of Ireland



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/30/2012 05:48PM by davester.

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$tevie
The subject was acupuncture. You are drifting far away from there in the effort to prove your point.

I can post links to people killed or maimed by surgeons, but what would be the point? The subject was acupuncture.

Right! Acupuncture. So sorry. I was acting almost as if someone had attempted to defend the whole field of "alternative medicine."

So sorry.

[www.medicalacupuncture.org]

Overview of the Literature
Several formal reviews of adverse effects of acupuncture have been reported in the literature.4,25-28 Recent editorials and letters are testimony to controversies/difficulties in the area of reporting acupuncture adverse events.6-8,29 A recent report from Japan reported that of a total of 55,291 acupuncture treatments, 64 adverse events were reported, including I I types of events.

The list of adverse events reported in the literature and/or personally observed includes:

Acute bacterial endocarditis from auricular acupuncture
Aggravation of symptom(s)
Asthma attack
Behcet's cedilla syndrome
Bleeding
Blue macules of localized argyria
Bum injury (caused by thermotherapy, including moxibustion)
Cardiac tamponade
Cellulitis
Compartmental syndrome
Contact dermatitis
Convulsion
Coughing
Death
Deep venous thrombosis
Delayed conventional diagnosis/therapy
Discomfort, general, during or after treatment
Dizziness
Drowsiness
Ecchymosis without pain
Ecchymosis with pain Fall from treatment table
Feeling faint
Forgotten needles
Glenohumeral pyoarthrosis
Granuloma
Hemothorax
Hematoma
Hepatitis B
Hepatitis C
HIV infection
Hypotension, transient
Interactions with drugs
Itching and/or redness, during treatment and/or afterward
Malaise
Multiple lymphocytoma cutis of the ears
Myelitis
Nausea, during treatment and/or afterward
Nerve injury-peripheral
Pain in the puncture region, during insertion, removal, or afterward
Pain at distant location, during insertion, removal, or afterward
Perichondritis of the ear
Peripheral nerve injury
Perspiration
Pneumothorax
Prurigo pigmentosa
Pseudoaneurysm
Psoas abscess
Reduced bowel movements
Renal injury and calculus formation from retained needles
Retained needles
Return of old complaints
Sepsis
Spinal injury
Spinal cord injury
Spinal arachnoiditis
Subarachnoid hemorrhage
Suppression of a demand cardiac pacemaker (electrical acupuncture)
Syncope
Vomiting

[www.huffingtonpost.com]
Where acupuncture seems to have gained the most clinical ground is in the area of pain reduction. Researchers in Germany conducting acupuncture trials for patients with chronic low back pain found that only 15 percent of subjects who received genuine acupuncture treatment needed extra pain medication, compared with 34 percent who were receiving "sham" treatments, and 59 percent receiving conventional therapy. Long-term pain reduction was also best for subjects who received either real or "sham" acupuncture versus those that received conventional therapy.

In another study, researchers used "sham" acupuncture controls entirely and compared it to the drug Effexor for relieving hot flashes in breast cancer patients. They found that acupuncture relieved hot flashes as effectively as the drug and with fewer side effects, namely the lack of energy and reduced sex drive.

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Chakravartin
]

Are you OK? Hope so. What you just presented is not any kind of argument against acupuncture. In fact, it shows a very low rate of adverse effects. That's kind of like reading the disclosure that comes with prescription meds, they've all done something terrible to at least a few people, so we get to know about that.
I personally know several people who have benefited from this treatment, including my husband. Several friends swear by it for sinus issues and for menopause symptoms.
Also, NIH officially recognizes acupuncture as effective for a variety of symptoms. Chronic low back pain is one of the more common ones. I'm all for healthy skepticism, but in balance the medical community, for the most part, has embraced the use of acupuncture in conjunction with other treatments. (it's covered by my health insurance, I think that's fairly common.)
[nccam.nih.gov]

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Lemon Drop
NIH officially recognizes acupuncture as effective for a variety of symptoms. Chronic low back pain is one of the more common ones. I'm all for healthy skepticism, but in balance the medical community, for the most part, has embraced the use of acupuncture in conjunction with other treatments. (it's covered by my health insurance, I think that's fairly common.)
[nccam.nih.gov]

1. That's an absolutely false characterization of the "medical community." The medical community does not endorse acupuncture. Specific physicians may, but they're probably being paid to do so.

2. I present facts and serious analysis and you rebut with "insurance companies and the NIH will often pay for it." That does not rebut anything that I have posted. Case in point: Insurance companies pay for chiropractic treatments even though it's well know that they are dangerous and provide no lasting benefit. It's called "caving to public demand" and it has nothing to do with public safety or efficacy.

3. Obviously, you are a staunch adherent to your faith. I will forgo further attempts to enlighten you.

Is the Mayo Clinic paid to endorse acupuncture? Because they do. They say go for it, ask your doctor to refer you to an acupuncturist.

[www.mayoclinic.com]

How about Harvard Medical School? Because they teach it.

Johns Hopkins? They offer it as a service to patients.

I think it's a little more accepted than you imagine.

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Chakravartin

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Lemon Drop
NIH officially recognizes acupuncture as effective for a variety of symptoms. Chronic low back pain is one of the more common ones. I'm all for healthy skepticism, but in balance the medical community, for the most part, has embraced the use of acupuncture in conjunction with other treatments. (it's covered by my health insurance, I think that's fairly common.)
[nccam.nih.gov]

1. That's an absolutely false characterization of the "medical community." The medical community does not endorse acupuncture. Specific physicians may, but they're probably being paid to do so.

2. I present facts and serious analysis and you rebut with "insurance companies and the NIH will often pay for it." That does not rebut anything that I have posted. Case in point: Insurance companies pay for chiropractic treatments even though it's well know that they are dangerous and provide no lasting benefit. It's called "caving to public demand" and it has nothing to do with public safety or efficacy.

3. Obviously, you are a staunch adherent to your faith. I will forgo further attempts to enlighten you.

Health insurers "caving to public demand?"
Are you OK?

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