NSFW

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/01/2012 08:08AM by john dough.

You betcha !

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Tea Party nonsense matched by what must be Liberal nonsense. Forum Liberals: rejoice!

My sentiments exactly, Duchess!

Mac-A has it. Stupid responding to stupid is not discourse. And because it's oppositional, it's not even intercourse, despite the f*ing.

Both 'commentors' are idiots.

Please do NOT invite them to the phorum. We have enough silly on our own !

Funny how you lump the respondent in the same boat as the Tea Partier when they are spot on in calling them out. Remove the insults/swearing and I completely agree with the stance toward the person that spouted off about things they obviously knew nothing about.

Tea Partiers like to present their opinion as reality and throwing cold water on what they say is the proper thing to do (insulting is not).

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If they had taken out the parts that made it seem like all Tea Party members were from the hills of Appalachia or the deep south, then it would have been more effective. IIRC, one of the biggest Tea Party proponents lives about as far north as you can get, in the U.S.

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Alpharetta, GA (Atlanta suburb)

Duchess for President!

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Unpaid Social Liaison

John-

The way to engage in an intelligent conversation is...

First start with intelligent conversers. Engaging people whose minds are 'made up' and have clearly suffered a break with reality is a lot like trying to teach a pig to sing.

The results are predictably poor, and it annoys the pig and the teacher.

Agreed that intelligent engagement is the way to properly handle disagreement; in this case, Duchess lowered herself to the TP level and responded appropriately.

Tea Partiers get full cover from the far right wing, yet when in the real world, they will get a rude awakening from people that will not put up with their narrow opinion.

Agreed, also, that engaging with minds that are "made up" is fruitless; look at all the facts presented to the forum trolls and they still come back with whatever nonsense they are told to parrot. They bring no one over to their type of thinking; in reality, they probably make them vote against whatever they are supporting, as their opinions are nowhere close to mainstream.

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john dough
Agreed that intelligent engagement is the way to properly handle disagreement;...

Agreed, also, that engaging with minds that are "made up" is fruitless; look at all the facts presented to the forum trolls and they still come back with whatever nonsense they are told to parrot. They bring no one over to their type of thinking; in reality, they probably make them vote against whatever they are supporting, as their opinions are nowhere close to mainstream.

I always find it curious that people here seem to present themselves as "open-minded" when they are as narrow-minded as the people they call trolls.

Open-mindedness is not something that is displayed on this side of the forums.

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cbelt3
John-

The way to engage in an intelligent conversation is...

First start with intelligent conversers. Engaging people whose minds are 'made up' and have clearly suffered a break with reality is a lot like trying to teach a pig to sing.

The results are predictably poor, and it annoys the pig and the teacher.

Ok, so refute the facts about welfare intelligently. We're listening.

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Mac-A-Matic
...I always find it curious that people here seem to present themselves as "open-minded" when they are as narrow-minded as the people they call trolls...

From what I've observed, there are very few open-minded individuals on this side of the forums, although it does seem to vary depending on which issue is the topic at hand...

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Mac-A-Matic
I always find it curious that people here seem to present themselves as "open-minded" when they are as narrow-minded as the people they call trolls.

Open-mindedness is not something that is displayed on this side of the forums.

If someone presents something that they are saying is true, yet facts prove otherwise, than yes, they are a forum troll. What part of that is hard to accept?

As far as open-mindedness, this is a political forum, and people come here, even you, with some things made up for whatever reason. I am not imagining that people read what another thinks and gets an epiphany to think like they do (in some cases, probably the opposite).

You believe what you believe and just because others do not toe your line, does not make them closed-minded.

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SDGuy

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Mac-A-Matic
...I always find it curious that people here seem to present themselves as "open-minded" when they are as narrow-minded as the people they call trolls...

From what I've observed, there are very few open-minded individuals on this side of the forums, although it does seem to vary depending on which issue is the topic at hand...

Try as I might I just can't see your point of view on gun control. It must be the mounting pile of dead bodies that's obscuring my view.

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SDGuy
From what I've observed, there are very few open-minded individuals on this side of the forums...

What does "open-mindedness" mean? Should a devout anti-abortion Catholic suddenly be willing to change their mind because of some "discussion"?

The purpose of dialogue in a political forum is seldom to change the minds of those participating, but to provide food for thought for those who are not rigidly in one corner or another.

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john dough
You believe what you believe and just because others do not toe your line, does not make them closed-minded.

It's a shame more people on this forum don't share that viewpoint.

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Mac-A-Matic

Open-mindedness is not something that is displayed on this side of the forums.

It's usually worthwhile to specifically point out what it is that one thinks constitutes close-mindedness in what someone else is saying. And then it's worthwhile to listen closely to how they respond because I believe we all have a tendency to exaggerate the lack of open-mindedness in others with which we have policy differences and exaggerate the plenitude of open-mindedness on our own part.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/01/2012 12:32PM by Ted King.

I shall not refute 'the facts' because none were presented in either posting. And furthermore, there is no 'welfare' per se. There are any number of local, state, and federal programs which purport to provide support for people in need.

Many of which are inaccessible due to confusing and interlocking 'needs tests'.

Which is why I'm housing and feeding a homeless friend of my daughter's. He's looked into what assistance is available so he can complete his teaching degree, get certified, and take the inner city teaching job he promised to take. But he can't get 'help' until he's been living in shelters for over a year. And he can't go to school while he's living in a shelter. It's past Catch-22, and gone to Catch-44.

Ed... guess I'm just a mean 'ol Republican type person. Feel free to exorciate me now.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/01/2012 02:10PM by cbelt3.

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I shall not refute 'the facts' because none were presented in either posting.

The parts about food stamps being a pittance, half of recipients being kids, the rest being mostly elderly, etc. I'd also add to that the really low rate of fraud in the system.

Nice anecdata, BTW. Your personal charity totally obviates the need for formal welfare. If only all people were so totally awesome!

The system is so hard to navigate because it's designed to be by people who don't really want poor people to get the help. It's not because liberals love paperwork.

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Nice anecdata, BTW. Your personal charity totally obviates the need for formal welfare.

Gosh, why does this refrain sound so familiar, cbelt?

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Mac-A-Matic
I always find it curious that people here seem to present themselves as "open-minded" when they are as narrow-minded as the people they call trolls.

This is a classic complaint by conservatives. And yet I have seen very few liberals actually SAY they are "open minded". It's an urban myth, or damning an entire group by the actions of a few, or a strawman: pick one.

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"You can believe me because I never lie and I'm always right."

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cbelt3
But he can't get 'help' until he's been living in shelters for over a year. And he can't go to school while he's living in a shelter.

What crazy-ass state is Ohio? Because I have never heard of not being able to get "help" unless one is in a shelter. I have five times your amount of anecdotes about people who got assistance while living in a "real" house.

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"You can believe me because I never lie and I'm always right."

Well, it appears that the entire St. Rollins family is on a roll:

Warning: bad language

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"You can believe me because I never lie and I'm always right."

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$tevie
This is a classic complaint by conservatives. And yet I have seen very few liberals actually SAY they are "open minded". It's an urban myth, or damning an entire group by the actions of a few, or a strawman: pick one.

Stating that others are trolls or close-minded infers that the name-caller is the opposite.

But I'm sure I didn't have to spell that out for you.

Okay, so it seems you were talking about one specific person but chose to couch it in a condemnation of everyone here.

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"You can believe me because I never lie and I'm always right."

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Stating that others are trolls or close-minded infers that the name-caller is the opposite.

But I'm sure I didn't have to spell that out for you.

Well.....the confusing use of "infer" would imply the need for a further spelling out.

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$tevie
Okay, so it seems you were talking about one specific person but chose to couch it in a condemnation of everyone here.

If that's the case, it's no different than the blanket condemnation I see practiced on this forum.

Perhaps you take offense when it's done to you?

I need you to find one post where someone -- anyone -- referred to themselves as open minded. Just one. Until I see one I will continue to think your position is BS.


I know I have NEVER claimed to be open minded. I have never said I was open to right wing ideas because I am not.

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"You can believe me because I never lie and I'm always right."

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$tevie
Well, it appears that the entire St. Rollins family is on a roll:

Show spoiler

Hide spoiler

Warning: bad language

Seems mick e frequents more than a few forums.

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Mac-A-Matic

Open-mindedness is not something that is displayed on this side of the forums.

I'm not open minded when it comes to things like suppressing or altering votes. Neither am I open minded when it comes to allowing religious dogma (read abortion/birth control) pass for civil or criminal law. Neither am I open minded when I see frequent mass murder facilitated by our unwillingness to confront the NRA and do something to protect our citizens - especially protecting our children.

I'm not open minded about taking money from taxes to pay for wars we did't ever get to approve or disapprove, nor for allowing our government to be required to pay more for bonds because our credit record has been dinged for no reason but temporary political advantage. The idea that we support a private prison industry by passing harsher drug laws will never get my approval nor will the idea we should spend money on defense without a thorough accounting of where that money goes.
The Federal Reserve should be subject to accounting as should a presidential candidates tax returns. If that makes me closed-minded, so be it.

I'm verging on becoming a septuagenarian so I suspect I'll probably never become what you consider "open-minded".

Wow, Roger, that is a great post. Thank you!

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"You can believe me because I never lie and I'm always right."

This is where I differ from the rest of you. I remain open-minded to all points of view - even the ones I vehemently disagree with and would fight to the death against.

But unlike many of the posters here, I don't subscribe to either a liberal or conservative dogma.

How does one remain open minded to a view one vehemently disagrees with?

I wonder if your definition of "open minded" is different than my definition of "open minded"? Have you confused "open minded" with "being polite"?

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"You can believe me because I never lie and I'm always right."

I think it is impossible to remain free of dogma, yet be willing to fight to the death over belief. Perhaps you meant not a strictly conservative or liberal dogma, in that case, I believe you are characterizing the "rest of us" and "many of the posters here" in a manner that does not indicate an open mind. If one exercises an open mind, one would notice a mixture of conservative and liberal traits in many, if not the majority, of MRF posters.

If by "open mind" one means analyzing claims counter to one's own for their factual accuracy and logical validity and admitting when such claims are accurate and the logic valid, then I think an open minded person will acknowledge that. But it's much fuzzier when it comes to assessing values for open or closed mindedness. I don't think it is unacceptably close minded to just outright reject a pedophile's argument that they are benefitting the children with their sexual touching. I value the sexual innocence of at least pre-pubescent children and no argument would disuade me from that outlook.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/02/2012 12:42PM by Ted King.

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Mac-A-Matic
This is where I differ from the rest of you. I remain open-minded to all points of view - even the ones I vehemently disagree with and would fight to the death against.

But unlike many of the posters here, I don't subscribe to either a liberal or conservative dogma.

sorry there's a limited color palette here
you're either rose or wrong

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Stevie-
To my view, open-minded means remaining open to other people's viewpoints. Listening to their argument and trying to understand and see it from their view. Then analyze that view and determine whether I can accept that as part of my own view or not.

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Ted King
If by "open mind" one means analyzing claims counter to one's own for their factual accuracy and logical validity and admitting when such claims are accurate and the logic valid, then I think an open minded person will acknowledge that. But it's much fuzzier when it comes to assessing values for open or closed mindedness. I don't think it is unacceptably close minded to just outright reject a pedophile's argument that they are benefitting the children with their sexual touching. I value the sexual innocence of at least pre-pubescent children and no argument would disuade me from that outlook.

Ted-
Maybe I'm a little bit different. I think I would like to hear what that person has to say, try to understand where that person is coming from and how this kind of thinking evolves - right before bashing that person over the head for sexual misconduct with children.

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August West
I believe you are characterizing the "rest of us" and "many of the posters here" in a manner that does not indicate an open mind.

Yes.

And I am anxious and eager to be proven wrong.

Mac, I will never favor tax cuts for the wealthy, for example, and see no reason to pretend I would consider it.

If people refrain from coming here and posting some made up fantasy about supposedly middle class people who still somehow manage to inherit millions of dollars only to lose all it to the government and end up broke then I will refrain from calling BS on it.

And as I said before, the "open minded" thing is bogus. Some right winger decided long ago that people who believe in civil rights and fairness do so out of "open mindededness" and not out of the desire to see legal rights applied fairly with a goal of justice for all -- and they have been trying to prove that liberals are not open minded ever since. It's kind of the ultimate Straw Man.

I am NOT the one who decided that one has to be "open minded" to think that the Constitution should apply to all of us regardless of who we are.

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"You can believe me because I never lie and I'm always right."

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$tevie
Mac, I will never favor tax cuts for the wealthy, for example, and see no reason to pretend I would consider it.

If people refrain from coming here and posting some made up fantasy about supposedly middle class people who still somehow manage to inherit millions of dollars only to lose all it to the government and end up broke then I will refrain from calling BS on it.

And as I said before, the "open minded" thing is bogus. Some right winger decided long ago that people who believe in civil rights and fairness do so out of "open mindededness" and not out of the desire to see legal rights applied fairly with a goal of justice for all -- and they have been trying to prove that liberals are not open minded ever since. It's kind of the ultimate Straw Man.

I am NOT the one who decided that one has to be "open minded" to think that the Constitution should apply to all of us regardless of who we are.

Not being open-minded is being close-minded. And if that is your choice, you have that right. Just as those Christians have the right to discriminate against gays.

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Mac-A-Matic

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Ted King
If by "open mind" one means analyzing claims counter to one's own for their factual accuracy and logical validity and admitting when such claims are accurate and the logic valid, then I think an open minded person will acknowledge that. But it's much fuzzier when it comes to assessing values for open or closed mindedness. I don't think it is unacceptably close minded to just outright reject a pedophile's argument that they are benefitting the children with their sexual touching. I value the sexual innocence of at least pre-pubescent children and no argument would disuade me from that outlook.

Ted-
Maybe I'm a little bit different. I think I would like to hear what that person has to say, try to understand where that person is coming from and how this kind of thinking evolves - right before bashing that person over the head for sexual misconduct with children.

I think from a reasonable discourse perspective that it is facts and valid logic that are most functionally important in having an open mind, but there is a lot of nuance that goes into why certain facts are chosen to try to apply valid logic to (including the emotional reasons for why those facts were chosen), so to fully understand another person's "argument" does involve more than simply the veracity of the facts they choose to use and the validity of their logic.

I think what you are implying pretty much dovetails with my take on open mindedness. I think that at least part of what you are getting at is that people tend to focus on others' conclusions rather than the reasons why others come to the conclusions they do. If two people just stay stuck on opposite conclusions and don't try to hash out the disagreements about the assumptions of fact and logic that lead to those conclusions, then it's highly likely the discussion will quickly degenerate into personal attacks. If another person presents a conclusion you don't agree with and they don't provide the assumptions of fact and logic that led to that conclusion, then I think an open minded person will ask that the assumptions of fact and logic be provided and then evaluate those facts for veracity and logic for validity. And an open minded person will acknowledge it if the other persons facts are correct and logic is valid and therefore there conclusion is also correct. From the perspective of reasoned discourse if someone largely does that then I think it is justified to say that they are open minded.

But discussions do involve more than facts and logic. Of course emotions drive us at a very fundamental level in our discussions. So, I guess if one wants to try to be as open minded as possible, then they will also try to understand those emotional elements that underly what the other person is saying. But this leads to the thing open mindedness getting fuzzier - these emotional elements tend to manifest themselves as value judgments. What is an open minded way of assessing emotions manifest as value judgments? Does open mindedness imply that one must empathize with the emotions of the other person? I suppose that to maximize ones understanding of where another person is coming from you should do that. But that gets emotionally tricky. Can one fully empathize with another person without actually coming to feel very much the same way about something that the other person does? Just how much does one have to try to feel what the other person is feeling to be considered open minded? Fuzzy - just what you'd expect when dealing with emotions.

Ted-

Agreed.

Emotions. I try to leave those out of the forums because I get enough "emotion" at home.