I don't think Reid is blowing smoke. I at first thought the "Bain rumor" thing was kind of silly but it's starting to make sense and sound more like a smart campaign strategy (and an orchestrated one.) Now the press is starting to dig and try to find out who the source is, or who else has heard that same information from Mitt Romney, and it's only a matter of time until they do. As for why this person would say such a thing to Harry Reid, well they clearly want to help Pres. Obama. Help comes in strange ways sometimes.

Reid isn't backing away from the credibility of his source, a "Bain investor." I couldn't figure out why/how a person like that would have seen Romney's tax returns. They probably didn't. I think something like this might be behind this. And the believability of this is the big problem for Romney:

Romney takes heavy hitter, prospective investor to dinner. Sometime around 2000, before Romney begins his political career.

Investor: "What can Bain do for me?"

Romney: "Well, let's take me for example. I've been raking in 10's of millions a year from my Bain investments, and thanks to these offshore accounts we've set up, I haven't paid a dime in taxes for 10 years. We can show you how to do it."


If source goes public with that, Romney has to either say he lied to the investor, or he has to show his tax returns which will either show he was lying to that guy, or more likely, he really didn't pay any taxes for many years. Perfectly legal perhaps, but politically devastating.

Unless Harry Reid made this all up, and Mitt's returns are not politically embarrassing. Which could backfire terribly, and wouldn't be worth the risk.
I find the other scenario much more believeable.

He has already released his 2010 taxes so that shoots down the ten year allegation. From those taxes it was said that he paid in the 15% range. I don't think Romney did not FILE taxes, and if he paid low rates, SO WHAT? I doubt that he did anything illegal. I mean he didn't buy a house from Tony Rezco did he?

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If you don't stand for something, you'll probably fall for anything.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/03/2012 10:54AM by swampy.

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swampy
He has already released his 2010 taxes so that shoots down the ten year allegation.

He released PART of his 2010 taxes, but not the part that has details on his swiss bank account.

I think this is very simple. If he had nothing to hide then he would make the standard disclosure that all presidential candidates have made for many years...about a decade's worth of tax returns in full. If he had something to hide then he would be doing exactly what he is doing now...stonewalling and trying to cast aspersions on those who are questioning why he is stonewalling. End of story.

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"So be proud to be a decent American instead of just a w'anker whipping up fear!" - Michael D. Higgins, President of Ireland

I'm sure Reid didn't make up it whole cloth, but without producing the person or any other evidence, it just amounts to political gamesmanship. If McConnell came out and said that an anonymous source claims that Obama had done something legal but politically very inflammatory, liberals would be vigorous in saying it's a bogus thing to do.

But in a political environment where the Romney campaign and his supporters are making a lot of hay out of deliberately misconstruing Obama's statement about "you didn't make that", Reid's gambit is just par for the course. As a purely political move it's probably going to help Obama more than hurt him. It's just depressing that we have to have that kind of political environment at all. Fundamentally I lay the responsibility for this at the feet of much too much of the electorate who don't pay close enough attention and because of that lack of attention they encourage the game players because the game playing works.

Reid says the source says Romney didn't pay taxes for 10 years. Not the last 10 years, just 10 years.
We all know that Romney's 2010 return was tailored for public consumption. 2011, if he releases it, will be the same.

Quote...

As reported by the HuffPost:

The 2010 return lists foreign tax payments Romney made dating as far back as 2000. The payments averaged at $37,000 a year, through 2004. But then, in 2005, his foreign tax bill shot up to $333,149 and stayed high for the next three years, before lowering in 2009, as the financial crisis hit.

As far back as 2000? That's more than ten years of information about his foreign investments.

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If you don't stand for something, you'll probably fall for anything.

The media is going to produce the source, Reid doesn't really have to do anything else except stand by his story. He's basically laying out a challenge to them: the information is out there, go get it. Any journalist who does find that source or a similar one is going to be the gold medal winner of the 2012 season, with many dividends to come.


As for game playing, it's Romney who started this round by telling ABC he would "let them know" if he paid less than 13% in the past, then he comes back and says he's not going to release any more information. I think that comment by Romney is what prompted this "source" to come forward.
That looks really bad, and Reid and Democrats are right to pounce on that.

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Ted King
I'm sure Reid didn't make up it whole cloth, but without producing the person or any other evidence, it just amounts to political gamesmanship.

"He who lives by the sword dies by the sword." "As ye sow, so shall ye reap." "What goes around comes around." "Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera!"

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"Stop thinking about art works as objects, and start thinking about them as triggers for experiences." ~ Brian Eno

Tax questions are not the only smoking gun in Romney's returns, as damaging as they may be.

It's clear he committed voter fraud in Jan 2010. His son's unfinished basement does not meet the requirements of MA law for residency. The address on the tax return was redacted.

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rankandfile
Tax questions are not the only smoking gun in Romney's returns, as damaging as they may be.

It's clear he committed voter fraud in Jan 2010. His son's unfinished basement does not meet the requirements of MA law for residency. The address on the tax return was redacted.

I think the Massachusetts Sec of State has already laid that one to rest. That town has been his primary residence since the 70's and he doesn't vote any place else. He does move around a lot, but so do a lot of the other very wealthy people who live there.

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It's just depressing that we have to have that kind of political environment at all.

While the highly polarized and venomous political environment is depressing, in this instance, I have to question why Gov. Romney will not follow precedent with the release of tax returns.

Do his tax returns show that he has claimed Rafalca as a dependent?

America wants to know.

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Unpaid Social Liaison

"I at first thought the "Bain rumor" thing was kind of silly but it's starting to make sense and sound more like a smart campaign strategy (and an orchestrated one.)"

I think that the Obama campaign is slowly and carefully rolling out their narrative painting Romney as an fat cat elitist who has little in common with average Americans. I expect we'll see additional issues rolled out periodically to support this perspective, and with increasing frequency as the election approaches.

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Lemon Drop

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rankandfile
Tax questions are not the only smoking gun in Romney's returns, as damaging as they may be.

It's clear he committed voter fraud in Jan 2010. His son's unfinished basement does not meet the requirements of MA law for residency. The address on the tax return was redacted.

I think the Massachusetts Sec of State has already laid that one to rest. That town has been his primary residence since the 70's and he doesn't vote any place else. He does move around a lot, but so do a lot of the other very wealthy people who live there.

Romney moved to CA in 2008. Bought residential property in CA & NH. Sold his MA residence in 2009. MA law says a residence is "where a person dwells and which is the center of his domestic, social, and civil life." His son's unfinished basement, which Romney listed as his residence, does not meet that standard. We're to believe Romney resided in an unfinished basement?

The MA Sec of State can say what he wants; however, business, social, and religious associates confirm Romney was gone.

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rankandfile

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Lemon Drop

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rankandfile
Tax questions are not the only smoking gun in Romney's returns, as damaging as they may be.

It's clear he committed voter fraud in Jan 2010. His son's unfinished basement does not meet the requirements of MA law for residency. The address on the tax return was redacted.

I think the Massachusetts Sec of State has already laid that one to rest. That town has been his primary residence since the 70's and he doesn't vote any place else. He does move around a lot, but so do a lot of the other very wealthy people who live there.

Romney moved to CA in 2008. Bought residential property in CA & NH. Sold his MA residence in 2009. MA law says a residence is "where a person dwells and which is the center of his domestic, social, and civil life." His son's unfinished basement, which Romney listed as his residence, does not meet that standard. We're to believe Romney resided in an unfinished basement?

The MA Sec of State can say what he wants; however, business, social, and religious associates confirm Romney was gone.

But he also had a home under construction in Belmont in 2009. So he can fairly say it was his home but his place wasn't ready. He did not register to vote in California or New Hampshire. I'm just not seeing any fraud here.
Is there any legal action pending against Romney on this? Maybe there is more here, I don't know.

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btfc
"I at first thought the "Bain rumor" thing was kind of silly but it's starting to make sense and sound more like a smart campaign strategy (and an orchestrated one.)"

I think that the Obama campaign is slowly and carefully rolling out their narrative painting Romney as an fat cat elitist who has little in common with average Americans. I expect we'll see additional issues rolled out periodically to support this perspective, and with increasing frequency as the election approaches.

Yes that's one facet of campaign Obama. Call Romney's supposed strength into question.
And it's one that for some reason has caught Romney off guard. He doesn't seem to have a prepared response or plan and he should have had one. I think it has to do with his personality, he's shocked to learn that his sterling reputation isn't holding with all of the general public, and that "you people" want proof, not just his word, that he has handled his financial affairs in a way that isn't politically embarrassing.
Also, he possibly didn't anticipate a climate where income inequality and tax fairness would be such a hot topic. I don't remember too many people back in '00 questioning how W had managed his financial affairs, they were too busy watching their home equity and 401K balances go through the roof. (I remember something about him not being a great business person, but that didn't seem to bother his fans.)

I think Romney's got a Guiliani ego problem. Holding a prominent office (NY mayor or MA governor) plus another high-profile success (Handling 9-11 immediate aftermath, or running an Olympics) seems to them to be enough to get you elected without further question. When the "But what about..."' starts, they are dumbfounded.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/03/2012 01:47PM by Acer.

Reid doubled-down today. Unless Romney produces the returns, which he still says he won't, this is the script now til November:


"It's hard to say which is more insulting to Americans' intelligence, Mitt Romney's tax plan or his refusal to show the American people what's in his tax returns," Reid said in a statement. "Romney seems to think he's above the basic level of transparency and openness that every presidential candidate has lived up to since his father set the standard in 1968."

"In short, Romney's message to Nevadans is this: He won't release his taxes, but he wants to raise yours."

Reid signaled Friday that he's not relenting in his attacks. He accused Romney of being "the most secretive presidential candidate since Richard Nixon" and pointed out that even nominees overseen by the Senate Finance Committee have to produce more tax returns that Romney is willing to release.

"Forget about president -- Mitt Romney couldn't get confirmed as a cabinet secretary," Reid said. "The contents of the one year of returns he has released would probably be enough to tank his nomination anyway: secret overseas bank accounts in Switzerland and the Cayman Islands, tax avoidance tricks and a lower tax rate than middle-class families pay."


EDIT: There is no political upside for Romney in having this little battle with Harry Reid. That he's willing to do this instead of releasing the stupid returns and taking the hit says a lot, I think.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/03/2012 02:24PM by Lemon Drop.

Whoa Harry! There's no "anonymous source" game playing in those quotes - just straight smash mouth challenge. I like it!

[2012.talkingpointsmemo.com]

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“I have paid taxes every year, and a lot of taxes,” Romney said. “So Harry is simply wrong.”

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Ted King
Whoa Harry! There's no "anonymous source" game playing in those quotes - just straight smash mouth challenge. I like it!

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"Stop thinking about art works as objects, and start thinking about them as triggers for experiences." ~ Brian Eno

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p8712
[2012.talkingpointsmemo.com]

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“I have paid taxes every year, and a lot of taxes,” Romney said. “So Harry is simply wrong.”

I'm sure he has. Sales taxes, excise taxes, property taxes, state taxes. I'm talkin' bout some federal income tax.

Put up or shut up, Mitt!

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"So be proud to be a decent American instead of just a w'anker whipping up fear!" - Michael D. Higgins, President of Ireland

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Whoa Harry! There's no "anonymous source" game playing in those quotes - just straight smash mouth challenge. I like it!

Cat was a boxer, if I remember.

Yes he was a boxer. Mitt was a spoiled rich kid. I'll go with Reid.

There is one other thing to remember. Romney has shown that he can lie with a straight face, and he often does. We have so many examples to pick from that the working press has become wise to him. They are just waiting for the right anecdote to pounce on, and from then on it will be the 2012 version of "First I voted for it, then I voted against it," or of Sarah Palin. Maybe not so bad as Palin, but you get the point. Anybody who needs a little ammunition can go to the list of 4 Pinocchios that Mitt has amassed. Meanwhile, Reid has bloodied him a bit, but to the voters it's just "he said -- he said." Maybe Romney is lying right now, and maybe he isn't, but still no tax returns. Remember that it is the overall impression of the candidate that counts when it comes time to vote, and Mitt is racking up the negatives day by day. Of course he has all the good feelings that come from his recent European trip . . .

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rankandfile
Tax questions are not the only smoking gun in Romney's returns, as damaging as they may be.

It's clear he committed voter fraud in Jan 2010. His son's unfinished basement does not meet the requirements of MA law for residency. The address on the tax return was redacted.

Oh, c'mon now, everyone knows there's no such thing as voter fraud. That's a fact.

[www.washingtonpost.com]
He included his Swiss Bank account a long time ago.

He redacted the address on the public copy of his return.
It's either the Belmont basement or the Belmont Townhouse ( the one most articles conveniently fail to mention they bought in 2010) in Woodlands. Or both.

The rules for voting in Ma only require that you be a resident.
There is no qualifying definition of resident.
There is for tax purposes and the sake of argument, but not for voting.
What do you want us to show for proof of residency ? A license ? Some kind of proof of residency ?

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Kooper's Flute Thing cover

[www.freethegrapes.org]

norwegian wood reality TV

[www.youtube.com]

Oh, I think Romney was actually in Kenya and that's why he lied about living in a basement.

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"Stop thinking about art works as objects, and start thinking about them as triggers for experiences." ~ Brian Eno

Mittens dare not release his tax returns before the GOP convention later this month for the fear of failing to gain the official nomination. Once he is nominated it will be too late and the GOP faithful will have to make the best of it.

We have a few more weeks of torturing poor little mittens.

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Comedy Central: Best news channel that isn't a news channel.

Fox News: Best comedy channel that isn't a comedy channel.

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Spock
Mittens dare not release his tax returns before the GOP convention later this month for the fear of failing to gain the official nomination. Once he is nominated it will be too late and the GOP faithful will have to make the best of it.

you know, that the most reasonable explanation of why he's stonewalling on this that i've heard so far. it does make perfect tactical sense. he would have to be counting on a majority of voters hating Obama so much they would hold their nose and vote for whatever pile of Romneypoo they are stuck with. the conservative faithful, maybe. independents - i don't think so.

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"Success isn't about how much money you make. It is about the difference you make in people's lives."--Michelle Obama

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billb
He redacted the address on the public copy of his return.

Why do that?

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billb
It's either the Belmont basement or the Belmont Townhouse ( the one most articles conveniently fail to mention they bought in 2010) in Woodlands. Or both.

The Belmont Townhouse was bought in June 2010, six months after he voted. He claimed to live in an unfinished basement for six months?

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billb
The rules for voting in Ma only require that you be a resident.
There is no qualifying definition of resident.
There is for tax purposes and the sake of argument, but not for voting.
What do you want us to show for proof of residency ? A license ? Some kind of proof of residency ?

To be a resident, one must have a residence. "Residence" is defined in MA law as "where a person dwells and which is the center of his domestic, social, and civil life." The "center" of Romney's life in Jan 2010 was his son's unfinished basement?

Romney sold his MA house in Apr 2009. (Remember, he had already moved to CA in 2008) Kennedy "inconveniently" died in Aug 2009.

Romney just felt "entitled" to vote in Jan 2010?

Edit: Typo



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/03/2012 05:38PM by rankandfile.

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rankandfile

Romney sold his MA house in Apr 2009. (Remember, he had already moved to CA in 2008) Kennedy "unconveniently" died in Aug 2009.

Romney just felt "entitled" to vote in Jan 2010?

He retroactively made himself a MA resident.

Obama took 4 yeas to release his birth certificate to prove he could be legally president. Romney has some time to satisfy Reid.

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Ted King


He retroactively made himself a MA resident.

It must be nice to be "special" and to not have to follow the rules that apply to the little people.

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"So be proud to be a decent American instead of just a w'anker whipping up fear!" - Michael D. Higgins, President of Ireland



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/03/2012 05:52PM by davester.

“I have paid taxes every year, and a lot of taxes,” Romney said. “So Harry is simply wrong.”

Harry! Seriously? Is that any way to address a sitting Senator? Not very presidential, Mitt.

Fun thread.

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MR/F Guestmap: [www.mapservices.org]

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btfc
“I have paid taxes every year, and a lot of taxes,” Romney said. “So Harry is simply wrong.”

Harry! Seriously? Is that any way to address a sitting Senator? Not very presidential, Mitt.

Yeah, kinda like Obama calling GWB "George" at the White House portrait unveiling. Real classy.

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If you don't stand for something, you'll probably fall for anything.

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swampy

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btfc
“I have paid taxes every year, and a lot of taxes,” Romney said. “So Harry is simply wrong.”

Harry! Seriously? Is that any way to address a sitting Senator? Not very presidential, Mitt.

Yeah, kinda like Obama calling GWB "George" at the White House portrait unveiling. Real classy.

I don't think there's any problem with them calling each other by familiar names, unless they're in a formal situation (which neither of these were). It's obvious that neither instance was a case where either party objected or felt put down by being called by their first name. There are far more important things to be concerned with than this silliness, and I for one think it would make much more sense to get rid of some of the forced formality that puts a false gleam on some of our politics.

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"So be proud to be a decent American instead of just a w'anker whipping up fear!" - Michael D. Higgins, President of Ireland

I can't find that ascii image of something going over someone's head, but I think btfc was presenting the first name thing in parody of the righties' faux outrage when Obama called Bush "George."

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MR/F Guestmap: [www.mapservices.org]

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btfc
“I have paid taxes every year, and a lot of taxes,” Romney said. “So Harry is simply wrong.”

Harry! Seriously? Is that any way to address a sitting Senator? Not very presidential, Mitt.

If "Harry" had an ounce of dignity as the majority leader of the Senate, he would not propagate a story that is only worthy of the cover of tabloids. What is worse, we have tons of supposed thinkers here who can't lap it up fast enough. I still haven't read one plausible legal scenario where Romney could have paid no taxes for 10 years.

Birth Certificate! Tax Returns! (long form please)

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August West

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It's just depressing that we have to have that kind of political environment at all.

While the highly polarized and venomous political environment is depressing, in this instance, I have to question why Gov. Romney will not follow precedent with the release of tax returns.

It's especially puzzling considering his familial history -- how to explain this? Does he think what was right for his father is not right for him? Like what's right for healthcare in MA isn't right for the whole country? (Oh but whoops -- he DID think it was right for the whole country, when it suited him.)

[www.buzzfeed.com]

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Freya says, 'Hello from NOLA, baby!' (Laissez bon temps rouler!)

>> I still haven't read one plausible legal scenario where Romney could have paid no taxes for 10 years.<<

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Avenger
>> I still haven't read one plausible legal scenario where Romney could have paid no taxes for 10 years.<<

i have a friend whose net worth is in the millions. she reaps the benefits of a family run business and her taxes are simply mailed to her for signature. her tax return about the size of the manhattan phone book. one year after filing her return she was sent information from the state on how to apply for food stamps and other government aid available to her for having such a low income.

btw, this friend has dedicated her life to redistributing her wealth in socially progressive ways. drives her parents nuts.

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"Success isn't about how much money you make. It is about the difference you make in people's lives."--Michelle Obama



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/04/2012 03:31PM by graylocks.

And this is supposed to answer my question? How does she pay not taxes?

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Avenger
And this is supposed to answer my question? How does she pay not taxes?

really, really sharp accountants who know the legal tricks of the tax trade.

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"Success isn't about how much money you make. It is about the difference you make in people's lives."--Michelle Obama

In other words YOU don't know. Knowing how desperate you guys are to find any scenario this just means it probably can't be done.

This is kind of funny. A few weeks ago some writers in Business Week posited how Romney may have not owed taxes in 2009. Avenger thought that was perfectly OK and defended the idea that Romney might not have paid any taxes that year. Now he says there is no legal way Romney could have not paid taxes. Which is it?
Remember that?
[www.businessweek.com]


[forums.macresource.com]

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Avenger
In other words YOU don't know. Knowing how desperate you guys are to find any scenario this just means it probably can't be done.

i am pointing at that it CAN be done. perhaps Romney has or hasn't done it. YOU simply choose to believe it can't be done and therefore Romney is pure. believe what you want; why let facts confuse you.

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"Success isn't about how much money you make. It is about the difference you make in people's lives."--Michelle Obama

Well, tell us then. How do you legally have taxable income and pay no taxes?