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Britain threatens to storm Ecuador embassy to get Assange
Posted by: hal
Date: August 15, 2012 08:36PM
Britain threatens to storm Ecuador embassy to get Assange

WTF??? I've never heard ANYTHING but, 'an embassy is the same as sovereign soil'. But I guess I didn't hear that from Britain...

The diplomatic standoff over WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange escalated on Wednesday after Britain threatened to raid Ecuador's embassy in London if Quito did not hand over Assange, who has been taking refuge there for two months.

The Ecuadorean government said such an action would be considered a "hostile and intolerable act" as well as a violation of its sovereignty.

"Under British law we can give them a week's notice before entering the premises and the embassy will no longer have diplomatic protection," a Foreign Office spokesman said.

Personally, I'm not fan of Assange, but he sought asylum fair and square...
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Re: Britain threatens to storm Ecuador embassy to get Assange
Posted by: mick e
Date: August 15, 2012 08:52PM
Fan or not - one look at the charges filed against him and you can't help but root for the guy. He is obviously being railroaded.



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Re: Britain threatens to storm Ecuador embassy to get Assange
Posted by: $tevie
Date: August 15, 2012 08:55PM
That is sheer madness for Britain to even consider such a thing.


"Stop thinking about art works as objects, and start thinking about them as triggers for experiences." ~ Brian Eno
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Re: Britain threatens to storm Ecuador embassy to get Assange
Posted by: hal
Date: August 15, 2012 08:55PM
I haven't studied the sweden charges that closely - I think the guy is scum...

BUT, I see that sweden has not even charged him with a crime.

Raid an embassy and smuggle him out of the country just so sweden can ask him some questions? How long after until will we hear about that unfortunate accident?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/15/2012 08:56PM by hal.
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Re: Britain threatens to storm Ecuador embassy to get Assange
Posted by: mick e
Date: August 15, 2012 09:00PM
Do you know him personally? What are you basing the "scum" assessment on?

Perhaps some of the actions of WikiLeaks were ill-advised, but as a whole the contribution of the organization to the benefit of a greater understanding of global issues FAR outweighs any isolated negative acts.



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Re: Britain threatens to storm Ecuador embassy to get Assange
Posted by: Gutenberg
Date: August 15, 2012 09:09PM
The guy is scum. He's an attention @#$%& who will do anything to get on TV.
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Re: Britain threatens to storm Ecuador embassy to get Assange
Posted by: mick e
Date: August 15, 2012 09:11PM
Really?

He put his life at risk because he wanted ATTENTION? And because of this he's scum?



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Re: Britain threatens to storm Ecuador embassy to get Assange
Posted by: Surfrider
Date: August 15, 2012 09:26PM
This would set a bad scenario if Britain goes forward with this.

The head of the military said the other day that it will take England 2 YEARS to recover from sending it's troops to work the Olympics.

They try and rough up Ecuador, Ecuador could kick their limey butts, then where would they be....they'd have to invade the Fauklands or the Jersey Islands or someplace...
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Re: Britain threatens to storm Ecuador embassy to get Assange
Posted by: hal
Date: August 15, 2012 09:26PM
My judgement is based on listening to interviews. The guy is an anarchist. He believes that gov't has no right to keep secrets. NONE - EVER. So he goes ahead and does whatever he thinks is best.

To me, that's like Black having the magic ability to remove all of the cars of the world because they are BAD - no discussion - just remove them NOW!

Have you heard this guy talk? THE MOST self righteous @#$%& of all time.

I think he's wrong - there are times when govs need to keep secrets, but even if I had agreed, I would NEVER have done what he has done.

AND there is no way that anyone can assess whether more good than bad has come from his actions. When Black removes all of the cars, pollution will plummet. Lives, LOTS OF THEM will be saved. Does that make him right?
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Re: Britain threatens to storm Ecuador embassy to get Assange
Posted by: hal
Date: August 15, 2012 09:27PM
Quote
Surfrider
This would set a bad scenario if Britain goes forward with this.

The head of the military said the other day that it will take England 2 YEARS to recover from sending it's troops to work the Olympics.

They try and rough up Ecuador, Ecuador could kick their limey butts, then where would they be....they'd have to invade the Fauklands or the Jersey Islands or someplace...

The reason that this is bad is because ALL embassies all over the world will no longer be same from similar action.
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Re: Britain threatens to storm Ecuador embassy to get Assange
Posted by: cbelt3
Date: August 15, 2012 09:30PM
Such a move would be bad. I'm not a fan of mr Assange, but Ecuador is within their rights. If they want, they can declare him a citizen , make him an embassy staffer, give him immunity, and then he can fly to Ecuador with imPunity.
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Re: Britain threatens to storm Ecuador embassy to get Assange
Posted by: mick e
Date: August 15, 2012 09:32PM
Quote
hal
To me, that's like Black having the magic ability to remove all of the cars of the world because they are BAD - no discussion - just remove them NOW!

That's a false equivalency and you know it, hal. Nobody granted Assange the right to IMPOSE anarchy onto the planet.

Maybe he IS an anarchist - big deal. He was doing what he felt was right. There are plenty of people of different political leanings that are willing to die for something they feel is important. Agree or disagree with his ideology or motivation, you have to respect him as a global citizen.



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Re: Britain threatens to storm Ecuador embassy to get Assange
Posted by: hal
Date: August 15, 2012 09:40PM
The guy thinks secrets are wrong and took it upon himself to remove them.

"Nobody granted Assange the right to IMPOSE anarchy onto the planet."

he just took it...

What he did was extremely damaging to diplomatic efforts all over the world. If you can't speak frankly with your opponent in private, you're not going to speak at all.

How would you like it if YOUR conversations were broadcast across the world...
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Re: Britain threatens to storm Ecuador embassy to get Assange
Posted by: $tevie
Date: August 15, 2012 09:42PM
I don't think it matters if it is Blackbeard the Pirate in that embassy. It's an embassy, dammit. If they do this, then I guess we should apologize to Iran for getting upset about that hostage thingy.


"Stop thinking about art works as objects, and start thinking about them as triggers for experiences." ~ Brian Eno
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Re: Britain threatens to storm Ecuador embassy to get Assange
Posted by: Chakravartin
Date: August 15, 2012 09:47PM
Quote
hal
The guy thinks secrets are wrong and took it upon himself to remove them.

"Nobody granted Assange the right to IMPOSE anarchy onto the planet."

he just took it...

Wow!

This is anarchy?

Why is my cable bill still so high? Isn't everything free for the taking now?

...

BTW: He claims to be a libertarian, not an anarchist. He alleges that education is the natural antagonist of fascism.
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Re: Britain threatens to storm Ecuador embassy to get Assange
Posted by: mick e
Date: August 15, 2012 09:48PM
Quote
hal
"Nobody granted Assange the right to IMPOSE anarchy onto the planet."

he just took it...

What he did was extremely damaging to diplomatic efforts all over the world. If you can't speak frankly with your opponent in private, you're not going to speak at all.

How would you like it if YOUR conversations were broadcast across the world...

Again with the hyperbole. What did he do that any investigative journalist would not do? He was able to uncover information through ambitious means. Is that what makes him scum? Because HIS journalistic standards don't align with YOUR expectations? Do you think Richard Nixon should have been able to keep HIS secrets? After all "Deep Throat" was an inside whistleblower, and that's exactly what Assange sources were.



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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/15/2012 09:50PM by mick e.
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Re: Britain threatens to storm Ecuador embassy to get Assange
Posted by: Black
Date: August 15, 2012 10:22PM
Quote
hal

To me, that's like Black having the magic ability to remove all of the cars of the world because they are BAD - no discussion - just remove them NOW!

Have you heard this guy talk? THE MOST self righteous @#$%& of all time.

I didn't realize you'd heard me talk. I hope you got my autograph :-)


MR/F Guestmap: [www.mapservices.org]
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Re: Britain threatens to storm Ecuador embassy to get Assange
Posted by: Black
Date: August 15, 2012 10:22PM
Quote
$tevie
I don't think it matters if it is Blackbeard the Pirate in that embassy. It's an embassy, dammit.

Not rockin' any facial hair here . . .why is this thread about me?


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Re: Britain threatens to storm Ecuador embassy to get Assange
Posted by: hal
Date: August 15, 2012 10:24PM
Quote
Black
Quote
hal

To me, that's like Black having the magic ability to remove all of the cars of the world because they are BAD - no discussion - just remove them NOW!

Have you heard this guy talk? THE MOST self righteous @#$%& of all time.

I didn't realize you'd heard me talk. I hope you got my autograph :-)

HAHA!! I wasn't talking about you :-)
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Re: Britain threatens to storm Ecuador embassy to get Assange
Posted by: hal
Date: August 15, 2012 10:29PM
Quote
mick e
Quote
hal
"Nobody granted Assange the right to IMPOSE anarchy onto the planet."

he just took it...

What he did was extremely damaging to diplomatic efforts all over the world. If you can't speak frankly with your opponent in private, you're not going to speak at all.

How would you like it if YOUR conversations were broadcast across the world...

Again with the hyperbole. What did he do that any investigative journalist would not do? He was able to uncover information through ambitious means. Is that what makes him scum? Because HIS journalistic standards don't align with YOUR expectations? Do you think Richard Nixon should have been able to keep HIS secrets? After all "Deep Throat" was an inside whistleblower, and that's exactly what Assange sources were.

c'mon micke... deepthroat revealed information about a crime. Assange released 1000s and 1000s of private messages from a source - neither checking to see which contained criminal activity and which didn't. I can't believe that you'd equate the two.
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Re: Britain threatens to storm Ecuador embassy to get Assange
Posted by: Rolando
Date: August 15, 2012 10:32PM
Wouldn't that violate the Monroe Doctrine?


San Antonio, TX (in the old city)

"All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing."
-- Edmund Burke
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." Theodore Roosevelt (1918)
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Re: Britain threatens to storm Ecuador embassy to get Assange
Posted by: rjmacs
Date: August 15, 2012 10:50PM
Embassies are not 'sovereign soil.' It's a common misconception, but in truth an embassy's protections are entirely dependent on the laws of the host nation. There's no international law governing this, save diplomatic treaties between the countries involved. There are agreements that manage how local and domestic authorities resolve disputes regarding embassy property and personnel. To think that it's as simple as the myth of church sanctuary (another largely legal and historical fiction) is just wrong.

It's also a mistake to think that Ecuador can just declare Assange a citizen and grant him diplomatic immunity. Diplomatic personnel enter a host country at its discretion, and can be expelled at its pleasure. You can't automagically 'grant' diplomatic immunity to anyone you like - there are rules governing the process for precisely this reason.


rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future
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Re: Britain threatens to storm Ecuador embassy to get Assange
Posted by: mick e
Date: August 15, 2012 10:51PM
Quote
hal
I can't believe that you'd equate the two.

Well, mick e couldn't believe that you would equate his running a website with INSTITUTING GLOBAL ANARCHY, so...



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Re: Britain threatens to storm Ecuador embassy to get Assange
Posted by: Janit
Date: August 15, 2012 11:00PM
So I have to ask what kind of motivational pressure the US is applying such that the UK feels compelled threaten an act of war against Ecuador in order to extradite someone who is not charged with anything, but only wanted for questioning in Sweden.
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Re: Britain threatens to storm Ecuador embassy to get Assange
Posted by: Chakravartin
Date: August 15, 2012 11:03PM
Quote
rjmacs
It's also a mistake to think that Ecuador can just declare Assange a citizen and grant him diplomatic immunity.

Who said that he was going to have immunity?

"Political asylum" is not "diplomatic immunity."

It's interesting that historically, the UK has been a bastion for those seeking protection from political persecution in their home countries.

It's a regrettable sign of just how far democracy has fallen over the last few years that the Brits would even make noise about breaching political asylum without a standing conviction.
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Re: Britain threatens to storm Ecuador embassy to get Assange
Posted by: rjmacs
Date: August 15, 2012 11:06PM
Quote
Chakravartin
Quote
rjmacs
It's also a mistake to think that Ecuador can just declare Assange a citizen and grant him diplomatic immunity.

Who said that he was going to have immunity?

It was cbelt3's suggestion above.

Edit: this is all a bunch of punditry and political posturing until Ecuador rules on his asylum request, which they've said will be announced tomorrow at noon local time. The Brits won't storm the embassy and arrest someone who's been granted asylum. That's not saying he can leave unmolested, but asylum isn't a hall pass, it's protection within a bounded area.


rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/15/2012 11:11PM by rjmacs.
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Re: Britain threatens to storm Ecuador embassy to get Assange
Posted by: Black
Date: August 15, 2012 11:13PM
As always when the evil word is involked, a momentary pause to consider what "Anarchy" means might not hurt.
Per wikipedia:
Anarchy (from the ancient Greek [deleted due to error]), has more than one definition. In the United States, the term "anarchy" typically is used to refer to a society without a publicly enforced government or violently enforced political authority.[1][2] When used in this sense, anarchy may[3] or may not[4] be intended to imply political disorder or lawlessness within a society. However, this usage is not the traditional sense of the word.
It does not automatically signify a desire to maraud, pillage, tear down, burn, etc. And Assange has not clearly acted as an Anarchist.
Some thoughtful exploration here:
[www.huffingtonpost.com]


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Re: Britain threatens to storm Ecuador embassy to get Assange
Posted by: Dennis S
Date: August 15, 2012 11:44PM
I would think raiding an embassy would be anarchy.
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Re: Britain threatens to storm Ecuador embassy to get Assange
Posted by: rjmacs
Date: August 16, 2012 12:16AM
Quote
Dennis S
I would think raiding an embassy would be anarchy.

But isn't that just because you don't know what anarchy is? winking smiley


rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future
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Re: Britain threatens to storm Ecuador embassy to get Assange
Posted by: Black
Date: August 16, 2012 12:19AM
Birthday smart-ass :-)


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Re: Britain threatens to storm Ecuador embassy to get Assange
Posted by: Pops
Date: August 16, 2012 01:43AM
Quote
rjmacs
Quote
Dennis S
I would think raiding an embassy would be anarchy.

But isn't that just because you don't know what anarchy is? winking smiley
Ok, raiding an embassy would be one of the most asinine decisions a supposed civilized western nation like Great Britain could do.
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Re: Britain threatens to storm Ecuador embassy to get Assange
Posted by: RgrF
Date: August 16, 2012 02:44AM
What Pops said and the idea that we ought ought to have access to government decision processes.

I think he's just become such a danger they will trample over anything and everything to prevent him going forward. Anonymous is next.

Just wondering but if Ecuador were to give Assage standing and moved him to Heathrow with the intent of moving him to Ecuador, what would they do?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/16/2012 03:17AM by RgrF.
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Re: Britain threatens to storm Ecuador embassy to get Assange
Posted by: Janit
Date: August 16, 2012 08:34AM
Asylum granted. Now what?
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Re: Britain threatens to storm Ecuador embassy to get Assange
Posted by: Ted King
Date: August 16, 2012 08:35AM
Quote
Janit
So I have to ask what kind of motivational pressure the US is applying such that the UK feels compelled threaten an act of war against Ecuador in order to extradite someone who is not charged with anything, but only wanted for questioning in Sweden.

thumbs up
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Re: Britain threatens to storm Ecuador embassy to get Assange
Posted by: Chakravartin
Date: August 16, 2012 05:32PM
Quote
Ted King
Quote
Janit
So I have to ask what kind of motivational pressure the US is applying such that the UK feels compelled threaten an act of war against Ecuador in order to extradite someone who is not charged with anything, but only wanted for questioning in Sweden.

Right wing radio lit up this week with stories that evil smugglers are using diplomatic pouches to seed our country with instruments of terror and insurrection.

(It's an old story. No particular reason given on why they're extra-suspicious of them now.)

I wonder whether the to are directly related. Undermining diplomatic privileges starts with their possessions and communications...

Even if they aren't part of the same campaign, we're treading on dangerous ground. The next war will be that much worse if we start treating diplomats like enemy-combatants.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/16/2012 05:32PM by Chakravartin.
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